Service Plazas have many problems

[Scott5114]

There's really no reason a turnpike authority couldn't put in a food-court type of service plaza if demand allowed for it.

I guess I kind of view service plazas sort of like I do mall food courts, now that I think about it. Yes, there is a conveniently-placed restaurant there as part of the facility, but if I don't like what's on offer, there's nothing stopping me from eating elsewhere before or after I leave the facility.

[HighwayStar]

There's really no reason a turnpike authority couldn't put in a food-court type of service plaza if demand allowed for it.

I guess I kind of view service plazas sort of like I do mall food courts, now that I think about it. Yes, there is a conveniently-placed restaurant there as part of the facility, but if I don't like what's on offer, there's nothing stopping me from eating elsewhere before or after I leave the facility.

Exactly. Every interstate in the country should have service plazas with gasoline, restaurants, and restrooms for travelers. The leases to the restaurant slots can be auctioned and the proceeds used to fund the roadways.

[hbelkins]

There's really no reason a turnpike authority couldn't put in a food-court type of service plaza if demand allowed for it.

I guess I kind of view service plazas sort of like I do mall food courts, now that I think about it. Yes, there is a conveniently-placed restaurant there as part of the facility, but if I don't like what's on offer, there's nothing stopping me from eating elsewhere before or after I leave the facility.

Exactly. Every interstate in the country should have service plazas with gasoline, restaurants, and restrooms for travelers. The leases to the restaurant slots can be auctioned and the proceeds used to fund the roadways.

Then, shouldn't the gas station leases be bid out as well?

I'm not sure how I feel about a government-sanctioned monopoly on the highways. If I'm traveling, I will probably take the time to exit a free freeway for cheaper gas, or a restaurant with a full menu that honors chain-wide deals, than use a service plaza where the captive audience is gouged on gas prices, or there's a Restaurant Express that does not have the same menu that the places with the same brand on the side roads offer, or accepts the coupons that sometimes appear in the local newspaper.

IIRC, Pizza Hut Express offers a very limited menu as opposed to a regular Pizza Hut. Why would I stop somewhere that only serves pepperoni and supreme personal pan pizzas if I want one with sausage, pepperoni, ham, and ground beef toppings?

I understand the deployment of service plazas on closed-system toll roads, and can actually understand why one was built on the open-system Western Kentucky Parkway because the road originally ran through pretty much 140 miles of nothing (commercial facilities have been built in intervening years in communities along the route like Princeton, Central City, Beaver Dam, and Leitchfield), but there's really no need to have one on an interstate, where property owners and developers can pretty much put any in-demand service provider at an interchange.

[HighwayStar]

There's really no reason a turnpike authority couldn't put in a food-court type of service plaza if demand allowed for it.

I guess I kind of view service plazas sort of like I do mall food courts, now that I think about it. Yes, there is a conveniently-placed restaurant there as part of the facility, but if I don't like what's on offer, there's nothing stopping me from eating elsewhere before or after I leave the facility.

Exactly. Every interstate in the country should have service plazas with gasoline, restaurants, and restrooms for travelers. The leases to the restaurant slots can be auctioned and the proceeds used to fund the roadways.

Then, shouldn't the gas station leases be bid out as well?

I'm not sure how I feel about a government-sanctioned monopoly on the highways. If I'm traveling, I will probably take the time to exit a free freeway for cheaper gas, or a restaurant with a full menu that honors chain-wide deals, than use a service plaza where the captive audience is gouged on gas prices, or there's a Restaurant Express that does not have the same menu that the places with the same brand on the side roads offer, or accepts the coupons that sometimes appear in the local newspaper.

IIRC, Pizza Hut Express offers a very limited menu as opposed to a regular Pizza Hut. Why would I stop somewhere that only serves pepperoni and supreme personal pan pizzas if I want one with sausage, pepperoni, ham, and ground beef toppings?

I understand the deployment of service plazas on closed-system toll roads, and can actually understand why one was built on the open-system Western Kentucky Parkway because the road originally ran through pretty much 140 miles of nothing (commercial facilities have been built in intervening years in communities along the route like Princeton, Central City, Beaver Dam, and Leitchfield), but there's really no need to have one on an interstate, where property owners and developers can pretty much put any in-demand service provider at an interchange.

Yes, I left that out in the name of brevity, but a number of leasing arrangements are possible.

This is not a "monopoly", there is not a single firm selling the good or service. Auctioning off a limited amount of real estate for limited periods is not creating a monopoly.

You can travel however you please, but many travelers will prefer the convenience, and the market will deal with that in the form of an equilibrium.

It is going too far to assume what kind of menu/deal honoring, etc. will be present, that is a matter for the market to determine.

"GoUgInG" is not a real concept in economics.

The limited menu's we see now are largely a reflection of the market and for good reason, travelers just need some kind of food, people are not looking for a four course gourmet meal, and the missing menu items likely don't bother that many people.

Service plazas are far more convenient than an interchange, and are the way the system was going to be built until special interest groups stopped it. Bush Jr. actually tried to reverse that in his time but was stopped by special interest groups again. From the perspective of the traveling public, service plazas are simply superior to interchanges with services from a convenience standpoint, and from the policymakers view they generate revenue directly and in quantity, which businesses off interchanges do only indirectly and at a lower rate.

[Scott5114]

I'm not sure how I feel about a government-sanctioned monopoly on the highways.

It's not a monopoly if you can drive past it and get off at an interchange to visit a competing business. The service plaza just makes things more convenient. If the businesses at the plaza are overcharging, you could still visit a traditional interchange.

I think service plazas would make a lot of sense in places like I-70 between Limon and Salina, where the free market hasn't really done a whole lot to encourage services at the interchanges anyway.

[HighwayStar]

I'm not sure how I feel about a government-sanctioned monopoly on the highways.

It's not a monopoly if you can drive past it and get off at an interchange to visit a competing business. The service plaza just makes things more convenient. If the businesses at the plaza are overcharging, you could still visit a traditional interchange.

I think service plazas would make a lot of sense in places like I-70 between Limon and Salina, where the free market hasn't really done a whole lot to encourage services at the interchanges anyway.

To add to that point, I have seen many cases where a new truck stop has met with stiff local opposition. People don't want them by their exits, and I don't blame them in the slightest.
Service plazas, which confine the traffic, noise, crime, etc. for the most part to the highway, with no link to local roads, resolve most of this issue.

[vdeane]

IIRC, Pizza Hut Express offers a very limited menu as opposed to a regular Pizza Hut. Why would I stop somewhere that only serves pepperoni and supreme personal pan pizzas if I want one with sausage, pepperoni, ham, and ground beef toppings?

I actually prefer Pizza Hut Express over regular Pizza Hut when traveling.  One is a grab and go place that fits in perfectly with service areas where you get something from a counter and then go to the seating area or back to your car.  The other is a sit-down/takeout restaurant.  When I'm on the road, I'm not doing sit-down restaurants (closest I'll come is stuff like Panera Bread, but still, that's just food delivered to the table, not full blown table service), and a local pizza place will have better pizza anyways.  I think I actually like the pizza and breadsticks from the Express over getting takeout from a regular one, too.  Not sure why they'd taste different (especially the breadsticks), but they do.  I could see limited menu being an issue for places that are traditionally fast food/fast casual rather than a sit-down place adapting to a service plaza or food court, however.

[thenetwork]

Anybody know how Ontario regulates the service plazas along it's freeways -- I know there are such facilities on at the least the 401 between Windsor and London.

[HighwayStar]

IIRC, Pizza Hut Express offers a very limited menu as opposed to a regular Pizza Hut. Why would I stop somewhere that only serves pepperoni and supreme personal pan pizzas if I want one with sausage, pepperoni, ham, and ground beef toppings?

I actually prefer Pizza Hut Express over regular Pizza Hut when traveling.  One is a grab and go place that fits in perfectly with service areas where you get something from a counter and then go to the seating area or back to your car.  The other is a sit-down/takeout restaurant.  When I'm on the road, I'm not doing sit-down restaurants (closest I'll come is stuff like Panera Bread, but still, that's just food delivered to the table, not full blown table service), and a local pizza place will have better pizza anyways.  I think I actually like the pizza and breadsticks from the Express over getting takeout from a regular one, too.  Not sure why they'd taste different (especially the breadsticks), but they do.  I could see limited menu being an issue for places that are traditionally fast food/fast casual rather than a sit-down place adapting to a service plaza or food court, however.

This.

While some people complain about how service plaza restaurants operate etc. its worth noting that they are generally optimized for profitability in that market. Most travelers want speed above all else, except perhaps some minimal level of taste and cleanliness. Complaining that you cannot order the McSoufflé or Pizza Hut Extra Large Chicago Style Extreme Deep Dish Meatlovers Suffed Crust Family Feast misses the point, most people will not miss it, and most looking to be that discerning should look for a restaurant not attached to a gas station anyway.

[hbelkins]

How many toll roads charge a penalty for exit and re-entry vs. a straight-through trip?

There's a service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike not too far east of Bedford. We stopped there at the most recent abandoned turnpike tunnels/Breezewood meet. However, right at the end of the exit ramp at the Bedford interchange, is a Sheetz. All things being equal, I'd rather exit the turnpike and go to Sheetz for gas and food, than use the service plaza and have Steak 'n' Shake (which I think was the main restaurant there at the time). But if the PTC makes it so that I'm going to have to pay extra to fuel and dine at my preferred establishment on my way to Harrisburg, instead of staying on the turnpike and paying inflated prices for the service plaza's gas and not getting the food I want, it's not exactly an ideal situation.

[HighwayStar]

How many toll roads charge a penalty for exit and re-entry vs. a straight-through trip?

There's a service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike not too far east of Bedford. We stopped there at the most recent abandoned turnpike tunnels/Breezewood meet. However, right at the end of the exit ramp at the Bedford interchange, is a Sheetz. All things being equal, I'd rather exit the turnpike and go to Sheetz for gas and food, than use the service plaza and have Steak 'n' Shake (which I think was the main restaurant there at the time). But if the PTC makes it so that I'm going to have to pay extra to fuel and dine at my preferred establishment on my way to Harrisburg, instead of staying on the turnpike and paying inflated prices for the service plaza's gas and not getting the food I want, it's not exactly an ideal situation.

Even if there is no charge for getting on and off it is far less convenient than just pulling into the service plaza. Not to mention the externalities imposed on locals by having their exit turned into a Flying J hub.

[hbelkins]

How many toll roads charge a penalty for exit and re-entry vs. a straight-through trip?

There's a service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike not too far east of Bedford. We stopped there at the most recent abandoned turnpike tunnels/Breezewood meet. However, right at the end of the exit ramp at the Bedford interchange, is a Sheetz. All things being equal, I'd rather exit the turnpike and go to Sheetz for gas and food, than use the service plaza and have Steak 'n' Shake (which I think was the main restaurant there at the time). But if the PTC makes it so that I'm going to have to pay extra to fuel and dine at my preferred establishment on my way to Harrisburg, instead of staying on the turnpike and paying inflated prices for the service plaza's gas and not getting the food I want, it's not exactly an ideal situation.

Even if there is no charge for getting on and off it is far less convenient than just pulling into the service plaza. Not to mention the externalities imposed on locals by having their exit turned into a Flying J hub.

Convenience is relative. I'd be more inconvenienced by paying more for gas, or by having to settle for food I didn't want, than by getting off the freeway to get what I want and then get back on.

And I've noticed that a lot of truck stops are locating at very rural exits where they don't really impose upon anyone but the cattle or the cornstalks in the nearby fields.

[Scott5114]

How many toll roads charge a penalty for exit and re-entry vs. a straight-through trip?

There's a service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike not too far east of Bedford. We stopped there at the most recent abandoned turnpike tunnels/Breezewood meet. However, right at the end of the exit ramp at the Bedford interchange, is a Sheetz. All things being equal, I'd rather exit the turnpike and go to Sheetz for gas and food, than use the service plaza and have Steak 'n' Shake (which I think was the main restaurant there at the time). But if the PTC makes it so that I'm going to have to pay extra to fuel and dine at my preferred establishment on my way to Harrisburg, instead of staying on the turnpike and paying inflated prices for the service plaza's gas and not getting the food I want, it's not exactly an ideal situation.

What I do to avoid this with the Kansas Turnpike is to simply fuel up in Emporia, after I've already exited the turnpike for the day (or before I get on it). I'm less willing to put off food for that long, though, so usually we'll eat at the Belle Plaine service plaza (which is conveniently co-located with a tourism information center, so I can get the latest KDOT official map) or the Matfield Greene plaza–never Towanda, as it seems to be the plaza of choice for buses, so we've had bad experiences with wait times there. The restaurants are known quantities (McDonalds at Belle Plaine and Towanda, Hardee's at Matfield Green), they don't charge noticeably more than off-turnpike restaurants, and there's not much at the actual interchanges on the turnpike anyway, so getting off to do business and get back on is not very tempting.

[roadman65]

There's really no reason a turnpike authority couldn't put in a food-court type of service plaza if demand allowed for it.

I guess I kind of view service plazas sort of like I do mall food courts, now that I think about it. Yes, there is a conveniently-placed restaurant there as part of the facility, but if I don't like what's on offer, there's nothing stopping me from eating elsewhere before or after I leave the facility.

Exactly. Every interstate in the country should have service plazas with gasoline, restaurants, and restrooms for travelers. The leases to the restaurant slots can be auctioned and the proceeds used to fund the roadways.

Mind on Baltimore again as that city has one on I-95 north of the Fort McHenry Tunnel.

It would be nice though, but its only going to work in state's like Wyoming, Montana, Eastern Colorado, and possibly West Texas.  The east coast and most everything east of the Mississippi, there are way too many exits and population centers within easy drive of each other to make it happen.

[US 89]

How many toll roads charge a penalty for exit and re-entry vs. a straight-through trip?

If you do the math, you'll find that on a surprisingly large amount of toll roads, an exit and re-entry will cost you more than a straight-through trip.

But... that is usually not by a huge margin...maybe a dollar or two at most? You're probably spending that much more paying the convenience factor inflated prices at the service plaza anyway.

[HighwayStar]

There's really no reason a turnpike authority couldn't put in a food-court type of service plaza if demand allowed for it.

I guess I kind of view service plazas sort of like I do mall food courts, now that I think about it. Yes, there is a conveniently-placed restaurant there as part of the facility, but if I don't like what's on offer, there's nothing stopping me from eating elsewhere before or after I leave the facility.

Exactly. Every interstate in the country should have service plazas with gasoline, restaurants, and restrooms for travelers. The leases to the restaurant slots can be auctioned and the proceeds used to fund the roadways.

Mind on Baltimore again as that city has one on I-95 north of the Fort McHenry Tunnel.

It would be nice though, but its only going to work in state's like Wyoming, Montana, Eastern Colorado, and possibly West Texas.  The east coast and most everything east of the Mississippi, there are way too many exits and population centers within easy drive of each other to make it happen.

You have it backwards.
Most of the states where this is extant now are the opposite of Wyoming, Montana, Texas, etc. The states that have service plazas are densely populated, relatively wealthy, eastern states with high population densities and traffic volumes.

Why?
First, because as traffic gets worse the penalty for leaving the freeway gets worse. In Montana getting off the highway is not an issue, but doing that in NY, CT, MA, etc. is frequently a major headache.
Second, high traffic counts and relative prosperity increase the demand for goods and services along the roadway to support more options.
Third, high land values make private truck stops comparatively expensive to run due to capital costs.

The presence of exists and population centers does nothing to eliminate the need for service areas, if anything it makes them significantly more convenient.

Finally, in conjunction with building these along the freeway, various other taxes, regulations, and incentives could be used to discourage the use off highway options as they create negative externalities for the locals.

[HighwayStar]

How many toll roads charge a penalty for exit and re-entry vs. a straight-through trip?

There's a service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike not too far east of Bedford. We stopped there at the most recent abandoned turnpike tunnels/Breezewood meet. However, right at the end of the exit ramp at the Bedford interchange, is a Sheetz. All things being equal, I'd rather exit the turnpike and go to Sheetz for gas and food, than use the service plaza and have Steak 'n' Shake (which I think was the main restaurant there at the time). But if the PTC makes it so that I'm going to have to pay extra to fuel and dine at my preferred establishment on my way to Harrisburg, instead of staying on the turnpike and paying inflated prices for the service plaza's gas and not getting the food I want, it's not exactly an ideal situation.

Even if there is no charge for getting on and off it is far less convenient than just pulling into the service plaza. Not to mention the externalities imposed on locals by having their exit turned into a Flying J hub.

Convenience is relative. I'd be more inconvenienced by paying more for gas, or by having to settle for food I didn't want, than by getting off the freeway to get what I want and then get back on.

And I've noticed that a lot of truck stops are locating at very rural exits where they don't really impose upon anyone but the cattle or the cornstalks in the nearby fields.

Try driving on the east cost where getting off the exit and back on can be an ordeal in itself. Paying an extra 10 cents for the gas costs less than idling through 4 lights.
And those truck stops are deceiving, usually there is a town that is being imposed on by them, and is simply dwarfed by their size. Major fight going on in MT not that long ago over a truck stop that wanted to move into a quiet exit with nothing but cows and fields around it, people don't want it there.

[Scott5114]

Having dealt with a bunch of NIMBYs fighting against a project I'm working on, I can tell you from experience a lot of these supposed impositions that people use as their reason for opposing things are either wild flights of fancy or complete fabrications. I had someone honest to God oppose our project because they were 100% convinced that we were going to hire armed security guards to shoot their children. (We don't have the money to hire security guards, armed or not, and besides, why would their children be jumping two fences, one of which is 8 ft tall, to get to us anyway?)

[HighwayStar]

Having dealt with a bunch of NIMBYs fighting against a project I'm working on, I can tell you from experience a lot of these supposed impositions that people use as their reason for opposing things are either wild flights of fancy or complete fabrications. I had someone honest to God oppose our project because they were 100% convinced that we were going to hire armed security guards to shoot their children. (We don't have the money to hire security guards, armed or not, and besides, why would their children be jumping two fences, one of which is 8 ft tall, to get to us anyway?)

I hate NIMBYs with a passion, and frequently find their bitching to be absurd, but realistically putting traveler services off exits has more traffic, noise, crime, etc. issues that keeping them in the right of way of the roadway.

[roadman65]

In my state of Florida you have many exits close together, so you do not even need them.  On I-4 we only have one car use rest area.  Originally 3, but soon as the boom from Disney and all the get rich quick developers decided to buy farm land for making money off of immigrants and people up north deciding to go where its warm and of course the previous war between Cuomo and Dick Scott due to atypical politics (as Cuomo is a Leftist and Scott is a narcist, as even though he is a Republican by party, he acts off the scale) of getting folks who hate Cuomo's left wing ideal to patronize ole Dicky's developers; we now have suburban character almost the whole length of I-4 and no longer even need them anymore.

If rest areas are dying here, a service plaza won't work either.

[HighwayStar]

In my state of Florida you have many exits close together, so you do not even need them.  On I-4 we only have one car use rest area.  Originally 3, but soon as the boom from Disney and all the get rich quick developers decided to buy farm land for making money off of immigrants and people up north deciding to go where its warm and of course the previous war between Cuomo and Dick Scott due to atypical politics (as Cuomo is a Leftist and Scott is a narcist, as even though he is a Republican by party, he acts off the scale) of getting folks who hate Cuomo's left wing ideal to patronize ole Dicky's developers; we now have suburban character almost the whole length of I-4 and no longer even need them anymore.

If rest areas are dying here, a service plaza won't work either.

Florida is not special in that regard, spacing of exits is not the issue. Getting off a congested exit is worse than a service plaza, having more of them does not resolve that.

And no, rest areas are not "dying" they are being killed off by the state. Major difference. Rest areas are not revenue positive, they simply are an expense with no revenue. Service plazas are very much the opposite, they produce revenue in excess of expenses that can fund other road improvements.

So on the contrary, the fact that the state has been closing rest areas out of lack of funds is indicative of why service plazas WOULD work, namely because they provide the same service, and more, but are also net revenue positive so they improve the situation.

[jeffandnicole]

Finally, in conjunction with building these along the freeway, various other taxes, regulations, and incentives could be used to discourage the use off highway options as they create negative externalities for the locals.

What taxes and regulations could be used?  And whatever it is, expect a huge fight from businesses off the highway.

[hotdogPi]

Does anyone have any data on whether new businesses popped up at Mass Pike exits within the last few years? The conversion to AET, as a side effect, changed things so that it doesn't cost any more to get off and back on.

[renegade]

Finally, in conjunction with building these along the freeway, various other taxes, regulations, and incentives could be used to discourage the use off highway options as they create negative externalities for the locals.

Someone ate a dictionary for breakfast.   

[ran4sh]

Does anyone have any data on whether new businesses popped up at Mass Pike exits within the last few years? The conversion to AET, as a side effect, changed things so that it doesn't cost any more to get off and back on.

Did they change the toll rates when changing to AET?

I understand that cash rates often get rounded to a 5 cent or 10 cent increment while electronic tolling can simply use more exact rates, but it's still possible to change to AET while keeping the rounded toll rates that were used for cash tolls.