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Electric Car Arguing 2022

Started by tolbs17, February 11, 2022, 08:29:23 AM

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formulanone

#100
Regarding rental cars: I'm in one for 35-40 weeks a year, roughly 4-5 days a week. The cleanliness does vary a little, but they'll give me another one if I don't like it; the biggest turn offs are strong perfume / chemical / food / tobacco / cannabis odors. I stopped being puritanical about other cars' cleanliness because that's literally (wait...litter-alley?) how 3/4 of the public treats their own cars. I don't expect a fully-detailed interior. I've been in the car industry long enough and even washed others' cars in the neighborhood before I was of legal driving age.

Rarely are the rental vehicles really poorly maintained; maybe once a year there's a problem but usually it's enough to soldier on without bitching, as us tough old gentlemen that still worry about what the public's perception of our vehicles are wont to do. Not including flat/low tires, I've had two cars in 10+ years that required replacement: one with a litany of dash lights after 150 miles, and a no-start (also after 100+ miles, it wouldn't take a jumpstart the following day). Anything else I've either returned immediately or dealt with it until returning the car. Most vehicles are less than a year old and average about 15-20K miles on the odometer; that's rarely enough mileage to rack up a warranty claim for drivability on most vehicles. (It should be noted that rentals do get a bit more careless punishment and abuse, therefore aging roughly 2-3 times as quick as personal vehicles.) I get a variety of clapped-out econoboxes, SUVs of all sizes, family-haulers, mid-sized sedans, and a luxury car...maybe once or twice times a year (something that retails at around $60K.)

Almost all engines drone at consistent highway speeds; Even most V8s sound largely the same if you're not going up and down through the gears on switchbacks and ess-bends. Sure, it's easy to pass and pick your spot on the road, but that's like 1-2% of non-performance driving. I know it's a deeply unpopular opinion in the sphere of automotive enthusiasts, but it's the dirty secret nobody wants to mention.

But there's going to be those who want that tiny performance edge out of self-interest, independent of any appreciable gain to anyone other than the end user; just as people whine that nobody makes the money back on hybrids, the extra 0.2 seconds to the speed limit doesn't get you to work that much faster not get you to leisure activities sooner. The same could be said about any hobby; the extra expenditures aren't necessarily for anyone else's pleasure, so will typically seem foolish (or over-priced) to others. That's just a given...

When a 500 mile range, no decrease in acceleration, a price tag under $40,000 becomes a real EV range, I'll become more personally interested. Then it will do what I need and want for more than half my driving needs and wants. But I think that getting all that range through larger battery-pack sizes, is going to mean larger vehicles, and in turn, larger electric motors, not necessarily smaller ones. And the public really wants more stuff in every vehicle. It all adds up and drags down efficiency and range performance. For the average driver commuter, a 300 mile range is great. But consumers usually buy goods with thoughts to its extremes, whether they even need the edges of a performance envelope more than 1-2 times a year, or not...and would be put off because it can't handle a long-distance trip that they may rarely take.


SEWIGuy

Quote from: mgk920 on February 13, 2022, 10:58:26 AM
These issues with range, turnaround time on refueling/recharging, cold weather performance, cost of repairs, fire department and rescue procedures, available infrastructure, etc, are exactly what doomed straight electric automotive technology in the earliest days of automobility (as in before 1900).  I see no reason to waste my time and money and change my outlook on the tech simply because of the current PC and 'wokeness' issues that are pushing it.

Mike



You think the average Tesla driver is "woke?"  Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Max Rockatansky

#102
I think I've said enough on my thoughts on the current state of EVs in the other threads we had on this topic.  I was sad to hear the LX cars are being discontinued after the 2024 model year.  It makes me glad I got one in late 2015 (a 2016 Challenger R/T Scatpack) since I thought environmental regs were going to be a potential Neo-Malaise Era jump starter.  That didn't happen but it sure seems like the EV push coupled with everything becoming a CUV is driving the industry towards a state of "blandness."

I guess you might say I'm more disappointed the auto industry is regressing to 80s/90s levels of boring after the past two decades.  I don't think that is driven so much by cars becoming EVs rather than consumer tastes shifting.  I kind of look at CUVs as the amalgamation of the Mini-Vans and Station Wagons of old.

jeffandnicole

How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

Max Rockatansky

#104
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

Neither an EV or a electric work for me right now for two reasons:

-  I live 38 miles from office.
-  I leave the house to go driving places too often which can be 2-5 hours away on a whim.

Really the hybrid is out for me given how I drive.  The EV won't be viable until the average range  of lower tier cars improves to the 400-500 mile zone.  Even the cheapest current EVs that are close to that range requirement are way too expensive for me to pile on 30k-50k in mileage onto annually.  Ideally I'd like to wait as long as I can towards the 2030-2035 era for EV prices to become more in line with conventional ICE cars.

HighwayStar

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

Don't have one, and don't really need one or want one.
The only thing I would actually want a hybrid for would be as a bolt on for a Toyota Motorhome, because in that case it would be a good way to add low end torque and improve performance without costing millage at cruising speed. I don't think anyone makes something like that but I would love to see it happen.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

J N Winkler

There was a great deal of discussion earlier on about the pros and cons of committing to a vehicle that cannot accommodate plausible use cases translating to a small but non-negligible fraction of annual usage (5% was the figure used).  From the standpoint of a future transition to EVs, I think what matters is not that a vehicle should be able to accommodate 100% of all conceivable uses:  instead, it is the viability of the hedging strategies that are available now or develop over time.

In most parts of the US, it is a lot easier than it is in many other countries to hang on to a second car.  I use a 28-year-old car as a daily driver and a 17-year-old car as a roadtrip vehicle, and I know others who have used cars more than 20 years old as daily drivers and simply rented a car for out-of-town trips.  I've personally rented cars as part of fly-drive vacations and while I've had to put up with rentals that lack features I consider essential (such as cruise control), I've never encountered one whose basic roadworthiness I felt was in doubt.  It's certainly true that some regions, such as Alaska, have large independent rental sectors that specialize in old and underfeatured vehicles, but a large part of travel is accepting the rough with the smooth.

Even now, most of us have use cases we don't try to accommodate in our current vehicles.  For example, I've never towed a trailer or owned a vehicle that was rigged to tow, even when it nominally had towing capability.  I've never wanted to own a vehicle large enough to haul medium-sized or large furniture pieces because it would be a nuisance for everyday tasks such as parking.  These tradeoffs, as well as workarounds such as renting for short periods or arranging delivery by others, will carry through in some form as we transition to EVs.

As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles), but rather gas stations closing or converting into EV charging points with no liquid fuel availability.  Using underground storage tanks to hold polluting and highly flammable liquid is an ongoing liability.  Depending on how rapid charging technology evolves, the effect on component durability may also pose a barrier to roadtrips; with gas-powered cars we've all been spoiled by the fact that highway miles are easy miles in terms not just of fuel consumption but also wear and tear.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

oscar

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?

"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.

BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

jeffandnicole

Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?

"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.

BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.

Any hybrid. Anything that isn't solely gas powered.

My Honda Insight looks very much like a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. Most won't even realize it's a hybrid, even sitting inside,.

Scott5114

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
Even now, most of us have use cases we don't try to accommodate in our current vehicles.  For example, I've never towed a trailer or owned a vehicle that was rigged to tow, even when it nominally had towing capability.  I've never wanted to own a vehicle large enough to haul medium-sized or large furniture pieces because it would be a nuisance for everyday tasks such as parking.  These tradeoffs, as well as workarounds such as renting for short periods or arranging delivery by others, will carry through in some form as we transition to EVs.

I'm in exactly the same boat. I don't need to haul large items very frequently, maybe three or four times a year. Having a pickup, then, would be inefficient and ill-suited to my needs the majority of the time. Thus, I make do without one, and in the rare case I do need one, I know who in my social circle owns them. Much cheaper to slip a friend a $20 for gas and the use of their time than it is to own one full-time. If that isn't possible, I can formally rent one from Uhaul or whatever.

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 13, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
As time goes on and EVs become more common, I think the real threat to roadtrip vacations will not be charging times (I don't see 15 minutes as a problem as long as it really is only 15 minutes--standard advice when driving is to take breaks of that approximate length every 100 miles) [...]

I personally find the objection to the 15 minute charging time to be rather surprising. After all, on a road trip, it's fairly common for me to break for lunch for at least 30 minutes. I could see national fast food chains like McDonalds installing chargers in their lots. Then it would be trivial to plug in, go inside, eat, come back out to a charged car, and you'd be out zero additional time.

I understand the 15 minute charge time is a detriment to use cases like Rothman's, where a drive currently long enough to incur multiple charge stops is part of his regular commute pattern, and can see how setting aside an hour plus for charging each day would be a non-starter for someone in his shoes. But this is far from most people's typical commute pattern, which is generally well-suited for an electric car, even if no provision for charging at work is given.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

What I tend to believe might be more of a road trip killer is potential mileage taxes or road usage fees.  Something has to replace the gas tax eventually when EVs take over for passenger ICE vehicles.  What that will look like by State likely will vary wildly for awhile.

MikeTheActuary

#111
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 12, 2022, 09:29:58 PMNothing is worse than a rental car, people treat them like crap, and they usually drive like it. Nor can I go out and rent a decent road trip car, most of what is available for rent are econobox specials meant for a businessman to get around town for the week, not for 4 people to cruise long highway days in luxury.

I've had pretty good luck with my rentals.   

My upcoming trips include rentals of an AWD SUV (going to make my first visits to Idaho and Montana at a time when there's still risk of winter driving conditions), a minivan (week-long drive to/from southern Illinois; need something comfy for my disabled wife / our car is starting to get up there in miles / discovered I like adaptive cruise control in my last rental), and a convertible (going to Hawaii in July, to get my 50th state; might as well splurge...)

Pre-pandemic, I was a frequent business traveler.   Renting cars actually provided a good chance to do extended test-drives before a new car purchase.  And, while I have had one or two that left something to be desired (especially if renting from more "budget" vendors), they've been the exception, rather than the rule.

FWIW, on the subject of this thread, I still have no plans to go EV until they are viable for all-day drives.  While an EV would be fine for "around town" purposes, we're a one-car family (my wife doesn't drive), and I do enough longer drives that an ICE car remains to most logical choice for us.

(However, I do think I will make a point to get a few bucket-list drives out of the way while ICE vehicles remain the norm.)

oscar

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?

"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.

BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.

Any hybrid. Anything that isn't solely gas powered.

My Honda Insight looks very much like a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. Most won't even realize it's a hybrid, even sitting inside,.

Is your Insight a plug-in hybrid, that can be recharged from an external power source, and can be driven at least for short distances using only the electric motor?

My Prius is not. Its hybrid battery is recharged only by the gas motor, and the hybrid motor isn't powerful enough to move the car without help from the gas motor. By your definition, it's not a true "hybrid".

I'm not trying to get into the merits of the different approaches, just to underscore that there are major differences among hybrids, some (like mine) that are more ICE than EV.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

jeffandnicole

Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 03:56:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 02:47:13 PM
Quote from: oscar on February 13, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

What kind of hybrid? A primarily electric-motor car with a supplemental gas engine to recharge the batteries, like the late Chevy Volt? A gas-motor car with a supplemental electric motor to provide a power boost, powered by batteries recharged only by the gas motor, like my early-generation Prius? A "plug-in hybrid" that is primarily gas-engine powered, but can be driven short distances only on battery power, recharged either from the electrical grid or by the gas engine, such as a later-generation Prius?

"Hybrid" is a confusing term, covering a lot of territory, including vehicles like the Volt that come much closer to a pure EV than my Prius.

BTW, I once used my Prius as my primary long-haul road trip vehicle, including on some sketchy unpaved roads, and multiple coast-to-coast trips. It worked fine for the first 250K miles or so. But now at over 316,000 miles, I no longer trust it for that purpose, and limit it to local travel, using a pure ICE Subaru for road trips.

Any hybrid. Anything that isn't solely gas powered.

My Honda Insight looks very much like a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. Most won't even realize it's a hybrid, even sitting inside,.

Is your Insight a plug-in hybrid, that can be recharged from an external power source, and can be driven at least for short distances using only the electric motor?

My Prius is not. Its hybrid battery is recharged only by the gas motor, and the hybrid motor isn't powerful enough to move the car without help from the gas motor. By your definition, it's not a true "hybrid".

I'm not trying to get into the merits of the different approaches, just to underscore that there are major differences among hybrids, some (like mine) that are more ICE than EV.

You're going to have to argue the definition with the automakers then.

Depending on where and how it's being driven, the electric motor on the Insight runs approximately 30% of the time. This is further evidenced by the longer than normal maintenance times for oil changes and other maintenance normally done on ICE vehicles.  Regenerative braking is the main source of proving power to the battery.

1995hoo

One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2022, 05:00:13 PM
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.

I own a car of similar value (the Challenger I mentioned above) that is totally worthless for commuting.  That said I don't commute in it and it's a fantastic road trip car.  How many people have that luxury to just afford cars like that though aside from lease payments?  That's the biggest issue I see, even the entry level tier EVs are still approaching soft luxury price levels.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 13, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2022, 05:00:13 PM
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.

I own a car of similar value (the Challenger I mentioned above) that is totally worthless for commuting.  That said I don't commute in it and it's a fantastic road trip car.  How many people have that luxury to just afford cars like that though aside from lease payments?  That's the biggest issue I see, even the entry level tier EVs are still approaching soft luxury price levels.

You'd be surprised how much money is out there.

hbelkins

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

As I've said before, I have a Saturn Vue Green Line (what's known as a "mild hybrid") and I wish I didn't. There is some sort of problem with the hybrid system that is preventing the alternator from charging the 12-volt system. This renders the vehicle undriveable because it's running only on battery power, and once the battery dies, the vehicle won't run.

I have learned that it is possible to disconnect the hybrid system and have the vehicle run only on the gasoline engine, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to do it. If I could figure out how it's done, I could either do it myself or get a mechanic to do it for me. I'd be happy to take the mileage hit because I like that vehicle and other than a couple of issues (a locked-up pulley and a throttle body issue) it's been a good vehicle, has about 280K miles on it and is probably good for that many more.

If only I could get the hybrid system disconnected...
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

DenverBrian

Quote from: hbelkins on February 13, 2022, 07:00:49 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
How many people in these groups even have any sort of non gasoline-powered vehicle? I have a hybrid. I would consider a full EV if I liked the vehicle in comparison to others.

As I've said before, I have a Saturn Vue Green Line (what's known as a "mild hybrid") and I wish I didn't. There is some sort of problem with the hybrid system that is preventing the alternator from charging the 12-volt system. This renders the vehicle undriveable because it's running only on battery power, and once the battery dies, the vehicle won't run.

I have learned that it is possible to disconnect the hybrid system and have the vehicle run only on the gasoline engine, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to do it. If I could figure out how it's done, I could either do it myself or get a mechanic to do it for me. I'd be happy to take the mileage hit because I like that vehicle and other than a couple of issues (a locked-up pulley and a throttle body issue) it's been a good vehicle, has about 280K miles on it and is probably good for that many more.

If only I could get the hybrid system disconnected...
I doubt most of us will benchmark the Saturn Vue Green Line,  which was last made in 2008, against current hybrid and EV technology. <shrugs>

Max Rockatansky

#119
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 13, 2022, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 13, 2022, 05:03:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 13, 2022, 05:00:13 PM
One thing I've said (including on this forum) in the past is that I don't think it's irrational for someone to feel that if he's going to spend $50,000+ on a car, he wants that car to be able to do everything he wants a car to do. I've softened a little bit on that stance as to my own needs because my wife's TLX is such a wonderful roadtrip car, but I still understand why someone may feel that way, and I can't say as I blame anyone for feeling that way.

I own a car of similar value (the Challenger I mentioned above) that is totally worthless for commuting.  That said I don't commute in it and it's a fantastic road trip car.  How many people have that luxury to just afford cars like that though aside from lease payments?  That's the biggest issue I see, even the entry level tier EVs are still approaching soft luxury price levels.

You'd be surprised how much money is out there.

I probably wouldn't be.  My family is infamous for spending money on things they don't necessarily "need"  or have full practically.  In fact my brother is on a wait list fo lease a Rivian RT1 truck. 

Rothman

Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

US 89

Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.

And use crypto to buy them.  :-D

Rothman

Quote from: US 89 on February 13, 2022, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.

And use crypto to buy them.  :-D

Very well-played. :D
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:29:45 PM
Quote from: US 89 on February 13, 2022, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 13, 2022, 11:23:17 PM
Well, the Super Bowl commercials certainly made it seem like we're all going to be driving crappy EVs in no time.

And use crypto to buy them.  :-D

Very well-played. :D

There is nothing Lebron James and Matt Damon can say to get me on the Crypto bandwagon any time soon.

Mdcastle

I wouldn't even think of buying a car that can only fulfill 95% of my needs. Not when I can buy a car that fulfils 100% of my needs.




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