Electric Car Arguing 2022

[jdbx]

Nothing you wrote made it sound like a "game changer", to start with a full tank you just stop by the fuel station that is inevitably located next to every hotel in the country.
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.

The "game changer" is that every single day when I am not on a road trip, which is easily 300+/year, I don't once think about fueling my vehicle.  I just get in and drive.  I plug it in when I park at night.  I don't think about the cost of gasoline, I don't need to stand outside in the heat or cold, or even just take that 3-5 minutes out of my day however many times a week to get gas like I used to with my ICE vehicle.

I am not sure what your family situation is like, but I promise that if I did not allow my wife or children to relieve themselves every couple hours on a long drive, I would be traveling solo and likely sleeping solo as well.  No thanks, I'd rather have my family be comfortable and want to travel with me.

[jdbx]

.... We live in a single family house with a garage, and I had a 240V charger wired up into our garage. ....

If you don't mind my asking, what did that cost and what did the installation involve?

The charger itself was about $500, and the wire and materials to connect it were about another $150.  My garage is on the same side of the house as my breaker panel, and I already have 200A service, so it was pretty simple.  Labor was free since my buddy is an electrician, I just had to make sure we had some cold beer for when we were finished.  Obviously it can get a lot more expensive if you need to upgrade your service, have a longer cable run, or need to pay an electrician, pull permits, etc.  The good news is that there are still tax incentives so you can write off a portion of it, and a lot of utility companies will also provide rebates.

[HighwayStar]

Nothing you wrote made it sound like a "game changer", to start with a full tank you just stop by the fuel station that is inevitably located next to every hotel in the country.
You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.

The "game changer" is that every single day when I am not on a road trip, which is easily 300+/year, I don't once think about fueling my vehicle.  I just get in and drive.  I plug it in when I park at night.  I don't think about the cost of gasoline, I don't need to stand outside in the heat or cold, or even just take that 3-5 minutes out of my day however many times a week to get gas like I used to with my ICE vehicle.

I am not sure what your family situation is like, but I promise that if I did not allow my wife or children to relieve themselves every couple hours on a long drive, I would be traveling solo and likely sleeping solo as well.  No thanks, I'd rather have my family be comfortable and want to travel with me.

I only fuel the vehicle maybe every other week, and I don't have to remember to plug it in and charge it every night. Either way that is hardly a game changer. A far bigger game changer is driving a comfortable nice car for the time I am in it. I don't think about the cost of gas either, it is whatever it is. Though I guess if you were worrying about the cost of gas before you are now worrying about the cost of electricity, seems like a 1:1 trade. Also I don't have a charger at my house so I could not charge the car there if I wanted to.

In all the trips I have taken with all kinds of people, I cannot once remember a trip where we had to stop every 166 miles for bathroom breaks, not even one that was inaugurated with a round of 52 ounce big gulp sodas.

That said, if your EV makes you happy I don't really care, more gasoline for the rest of us.

[skluth]

You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.

When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times.  That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.

Did you even read?

Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.

So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these, but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.

[HighwayStar]

You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.

When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times.  That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.

Did you even read?

Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.

So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these, but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.

I once went 1100 miles and only stopped twice (Covid thing). I don't expect everyone to be into endurance driving however.
I'm not buying one of those unless I end up on a Cannonball run crew however.

[Scott5114]

I only fuel the vehicle maybe every other week, and I don't have to remember to plug it in and charge it every night. Either way that is hardly a game changer. A far bigger game changer is driving a comfortable nice car for the time I am in it. I don't think about the cost of gas either, it is whatever it is.

How much does it usually cost you to gas up a school bus?

[jamess]

Someone really saying that renting cars is a BAD thing? You must not like cars, because I love being able to pick a different vehicle every time from the Emerald Aisle and comparing my driving experience.

As for much longer trips....fortunately, I can afford plane tickets, and I value my time. Why waste 10 hours dodging trucks when I can be at my destination in 3? The last time I took a legit road trip to national parks, I rented an SUV because why on earth would I want to put all those miles and wear and tear on my personal vehicle?

As for the topic...I test drove a Tesla a couple of months ago because they make it incredibly easy to do so (book a time slot online, no sales pressure). The acceleration was truly fantastic, but Im not sold on everything being on a screen. I like buttons.

[1995hoo]

You seem to stop a great deal on your trips, which is perhaps why the EV does not irritate you, but that pace of travel is impractical for long trips.

When we drove to San Diego, we had to stop and charge 3 times.  That's about how many times my family would stop when we were driving an ICE car on the same route, since people need to use the bathroom, have something to eat, etc.

Did you even read?

Yes I read that. They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.

So he stopped every 2-3 hours. I do the same when I drive. I suppose I could get one of these, but honestly I don't think it's healthy to drive longer without getting out of the car and stretching a bit, even if it's only for a few minutes.

Heh. From Car and Driver's "EV 1000" article:

VanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.

[HighwayStar]

VanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.

[/quote]

Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.

[HighwayStar]

Someone really saying that renting cars is a BAD thing? You must not like cars, because I love being able to pick a different vehicle every time from the Emerald Aisle and comparing my driving experience.

As for much longer trips....fortunately, I can afford plane tickets, and I value my time. Why waste 10 hours dodging trucks when I can be at my destination in 3? The last time I took a legit road trip to national parks, I rented an SUV because why on earth would I want to put all those miles and wear and tear on my personal vehicle?

As for the topic...I test drove a Tesla a couple of months ago because they make it incredibly easy to do so (book a time slot online, no sales pressure). The acceleration was truly fantastic, but Im not sold on everything being on a screen. I like buttons.

Why would I want to pick a different vehicle every time when they are all inferior to the car I have? And even if they were not, they are never cared for properly anyway.

I can afford plane tickets, they are actually cheaper than driving, but fortunately I can afford to drive instead and not sit in a pressurized tin can stuck between a crying baby and someone heaving into a paper bag for 5 hours while fitting all my luggage into a handbag. Flying ceased to be a pleasant way to travel decades ago.

If you have a sufficiently nice car spending 10 hours cruising down the highway is far more enjoyable than spending a fraction of that time in the air. Just kick back, put on a double live album, sip on a coke and watch the miles go by.

Why would I worry about putting miles on my personal vehicle, I have it to drive, not look at.

[1995hoo]

VanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.

Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.

You're not crazy, you're just ignorant and arrogant. Note the boldfaced, which is part of the quotation from that article. They were conducting a rally-style EV race on a loop that began and ended in Ann Arbor. The drivers were free to use whatever route they wanted as long as they passed through certain designated checkpoints and as long as they stopped for the night between certain hours. VanderWerp wanted to, you know, WIN THE RACE.

I mean, Cannonball drivers do all sorts of absurd things rational drivers wouldn't do either. I happen to agree with you that I would use climate control and the car stereo rather than sweating and bringing portable batteries just to increase range. But unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to have read the entire quotation and to understand that the driver in question was intentionally taking extreme steps, whereas you stubbornly try to twist it to support your little delusions.

[HighwayStar]

VanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.

Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.

You're not crazy, you're just ignorant and arrogant. Note the boldfaced, which is part of the quotation from that article. They were conducting a rally-style EV race on a loop that began and ended in Ann Arbor. The drivers were free to use whatever route they wanted as long as they passed through certain designated checkpoints and as long as they stopped for the night between certain hours. VanderWerp wanted to, you know, WIN THE RACE.

I mean, Cannonball drivers do all sorts of absurd things rational drivers wouldn't do either. I happen to agree with you that I would use climate control and the car stereo rather than sweating and bringing portable batteries just to increase range. But unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to have read the entire quotation and to understand that the driver in question was intentionally taking extreme steps, whereas you stubbornly try to twist it to support your little delusions.

Yeah I had already read the boldface, but that does not change the conclusion. They went to those lengths to achieve something that I could do in a legit beater car with ease. Its obvious no owner is going to drive it like that, but I have done many drives where I did 326+ miles without stopping, so it is relevant.
But if you do those things then you get less range, whereas in my ICE cars I can have my cake and eat it too.

[Rick Powell]

They stopped 3 times going to SD, which was 500 miles. So they stopped every 166 miles, which is a lot of stopping.

I dunno, in our history of going the 700 miles between IL and MS where my brother lives, we probably average 3 stops per trip if we drive straight through. Sometimes 2. So 166 would be slightly longer than our average trip leg, but only by an hour or so, which would be important to some but not others. I guess the point is that, with an ICE vehicle, you have the option of going 400+ miles till the fuel light starts flashing, or a more leisurely pace...but in anything except maybe a Lucid or a max-range Model S, your EV trip legs are more limited.

[Max Rockatansky]

Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder. 

[Scott5114]

Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder. 

Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.

[Rothman]

Hm.  I typically don't stop unless I need gas, so every 4 hours or so.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Generally where I'm going the side of the road is an adequate enough rest area.  Either way my attention span starts to wane after that 2-3 hour window.  Even 3-5 minutes is usually enough to get my focus back on track.  Seems like the side of the road and a 3-5 minute probably isn't very conducive for charging an electric motor though.

Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder. 

Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.

I half want to know if there is an empty Amazon delivery driver style bottle involved with these super huge segments of not taking a break cited by Mr. Star.  It seems clear from his posting that he likely doesn't suffer from IBS.

[HighwayStar]

^^^

Generally where I'm going the side of the road is an adequate enough rest area.  Either way my attention span starts to wane after that 2-3 hour window.  Even 3-5 minutes is usually enough to get my focus back on track.  Seems like the side of the road and a 3-5 minute probably isn't very conducive for charging an electric motor though.

Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder. 

Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.

I half want to know if there is an empty bottle involved with these super huge segments of not taking a break cited by Mr. Star.  It seems clear from his posting that he likely doesn't suffer from IBS.

Rest assured no such devices involved. 
Just checking Google, one was 362 miles, calculated drive time of 6 hours. Another was 361 miles, calculated drive time 5.5 hours. And the other was 366 miles, drive time 5.5 hours.
A different trip had a 358 that google says was 5.75 hours, but I know it took a full hour just to leave Philly that morning, so say 6.75.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Generally where I'm going the side of the road is an adequate enough rest area.  Either way my attention span starts to wane after that 2-3 hour window.  Even 3-5 minutes is usually enough to get my focus back on track.  Seems like the side of the road and a 3-5 minute probably isn't very conducive for charging an electric motor though.

Hell, I stop every 2-3 hours just to take a break for a couple minutes much less relieve my bladder. 

Hey, if the alternative was sitting at home inside a barbed-wire fence, you wouldn't want to waste time getting away from that place either.

I half want to know if there is an empty bottle involved with these super huge segments of not taking a break cited by Mr. Star.  It seems clear from his posting that he likely doesn't suffer from IBS.

Rest assured no such devices involved. 
Just checking Google, one was 362 miles, calculated drive time of 6 hours. Another was 361 miles, calculated drive time 5.5 hours. And the other was 366 miles, drive time 5.5 hours.
A different trip had a 358 that google says was 5.75 hours, but I know it took a full hour just to leave Philly that morning, so say 6.75.

I want to say the last time I deliberately drove for that long without stopping was in 2011 when one of my investigators complained I stopped too much on the way Ruidoso from Phoenix.  Usually on that route I would generally stop in Willcox for food and the Gage Rest Area.  Never mind he never drove nor ever fronted his own lodging expenses on those lengthy trips.  I think that I made him take his own car the next time we needed someone out in New Mexico. 

I think on that trip I actually made it the 492 miles without a fill up.  My work car could get as high as 580 miles on a tank back then.  I may have filled up in Alamogordo or Tularosa but I don't think I did.

[jdbx]

I know that everybody has different circumstances, but I think it's important to remember that travel habits can be very different depending on who is riding with you, their age, any medical concerns, etc.  When I was in my 20's, I thought nothing of hopping in a car and driving to Phoenix 800 miles away driving straight-through in about 10 hours, only stopping maybe twice for gas.  Could I do that again with my remaining ICE vehicle?  Sure!  Would my 40-something back and legs hate me for it?  Absolutely!  Would my 13 year old kid make me miserable complaining about wanting to stop or being hungry?  Guaranteed!

ICE vehicles are fine, I still own a truck to tow my boat, and my 16 year old daughter recently got an older Civic which is a perfect car for teen driver IMHO.  EVs are still an emerging technology, and I think that charging technology and energy density of batteries will soon make them very comparable to an ICE vehicle in terms of overall range and recharge time, we're just not there yet.  The point I was trying to make was that my family has been living with one for awhile and it's been an overall improvement in our lifestyle and had made our monthly budget more predictable.

I shared my perspective because a lot of the comments I have seen are from people who don't actually own or use them on a regular basis.  I just your average roadgeek over here offering another relevant observation.  I'll admit that my perspective is skewed by the area I live in, my family, and my lifestyle.  So is yours.

[hbelkins]

I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.

For those of you who have installed home chargers -- what has that done to your home electricity rates? Did your power consumption, and therefore your bills, go up significantly?

[1995hoo]

VanderWerp, in the Model S, wanted to post a big number on the first leg to make a statement. Possibly that statement was "No owner would ever do this." To maximize the energy available for moving the car, he ran a radar detector off a portable battery and played music through a Bluetooth speaker. With climate control off, the cabin temperature reached 86 degrees despite a 65-degree ambient temperature. At least all the sweating meant that neither VanderWerp nor his partner needed the TravelJohn disposable urinals they'd brought. They plugged into their first Supercharger after 326 miles and were back on the road 26 minutes later.

Yeah what a classy way to travel. Running everything on portable batteries, listening to some crap quality Bluetooth speaker, in sweltering heat, just to achieve a range that would be possible in my economy car under the worst possible conditions. I like to be able to turn up the AC and run that THX sound system without worrying about the battery life, but I guess I'm crazy.

You're not crazy, you're just ignorant and arrogant. Note the boldfaced, which is part of the quotation from that article. They were conducting a rally-style EV race on a loop that began and ended in Ann Arbor. The drivers were free to use whatever route they wanted as long as they passed through certain designated checkpoints and as long as they stopped for the night between certain hours. VanderWerp wanted to, you know, WIN THE RACE.

I mean, Cannonball drivers do all sorts of absurd things rational drivers wouldn't do either. I happen to agree with you that I would use climate control and the car stereo rather than sweating and bringing portable batteries just to increase range. But unlike you, I'm intelligent enough to have read the entire quotation and to understand that the driver in question was intentionally taking extreme steps, whereas you stubbornly try to twist it to support your little delusions.

Yeah I had already read the boldface, but that does not change the conclusion. They went to those lengths to achieve something that I could do in a legit beater car with ease. Its obvious no owner is going to drive it like that, but I have done many drives where I did 326+ miles without stopping, so it is relevant.
But if you do those things then you get less range, whereas in my ICE cars I can have my cake and eat it too.

But your prattling on about what you can do in your beater car is irrelevant. The writers' assignment was to race electric vehicles. Thus, gas and diesel cars and what they can do is totally irrelevant.

BTW, my primary gas car can go over 450 miles on a tank (farthest I've gone between fillups in that car was 455 miles); my wife's can go at least 534 miles (the farthest we've gone between fillups, so I know it can go further but I don't know how much). I personally am incapable of going that far without stopping–if I try, my lower back will give out and I'll be in enough pain that's it's just not worth trying it. So yes, of course I know gas cars can go farther than the EVs in that article. But that wasn't the point of the article, and your little rants don't change that.

I know that everybody has different circumstances, but I think it's important to remember that travel habits can be very different depending on who is riding with you, their age, any medical concerns, etc.  ....

Heh, not according to HighwayStar. I strongly suspect he's the type of person who would call a fat woman fat to her face and then, when she takes offense, will say "my comment was accurate, so you have no basis to be offended."

[Scott5114]

I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.

I would hazard a guess that the percentage of people who prefer eating in a car is lower than those that prefer stopping. I can eat in the car if I'm running short on time, but if eating at an actual table is at all an option, I greatly prefer doing that. And there are some people who absolutely will not have food in their car at all, full stop, because of the messiness or the smell. (I remember reading one of the forum regulars even goes to the extreme of putting takeout in their trunk out of a fear of lingering food odors.)

[1995hoo]

I don't stop unless I have to, and that's only for necessities (fuel or bathroom breaks) and I make those stops as brief as possible. I don't stop to eat; I get drive-through or carryout and eat while I'm driving. It's not all that often that I find myself needing to stop solely for the sake of stretching my legs. Those factors make electric cars less practical for me.

I would hazard a guess that the percentage of people who prefer eating in a car is lower than those that prefer stopping. I can eat in the car if I'm running short on time, but if eating at an actual table is at all an option, I greatly prefer doing that. And there are some people who absolutely will not have food in their car at all, full stop, because of the messiness or the smell. (I remember reading one of the forum regulars even goes to the extreme of putting takeout in their trunk out of a fear of lingering food odors.)

That post was from a while ago, but he still does that.

I never eat in the car other than maybe a candy bar or M&Ms; I also don't transport fast food in the passenger compartment so the cars won't absorb the aroma (so if I want to get food to go, I don't use the drive-thru–I go inside and then put it in the trunk). The exception to the latter is if I'm driving the convertible with the top down.

When I was in school I used to eat in the car every once in a while, but I stopped that years ago. Trying to eat something like a burger was never easy while operating a manual shift anyway.

[jeffandnicole]

...I don't think about the cost of gasoline...

If his location is true, he doesn't think about the cost of gas because he doesn't want to think how it's generally the highest price east of the Rockies.