Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[1995hoo]

I think standard time all year would be better.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this before.  The primary issue before state legislatures and Congress over the past 25 years or so has been that the Average Joe would like to retain standard time, whereas farmers need daylight savings during the Summer months.  My wife just shared that a local church recently posted a story about someone she knew that recalled getting up at 2AM in order to milk the cows and collect eggs before breakfast, all in time to get breakfast cooked and cleanup done before sunrise.  That was probably in eastern North Carolina, whereas in the mountains of West Virginia you only needed to get up by 3AM to do the same.  (Of course, in some parts of West Virginia you still can't see daylight for a while). 

Assuming that these farmers still aim for 8 hours of sleep, they've got to head off to bed about 6PM/7PM.  It's no wonder that farmers like the extra hour from DST.

Dirt Roads, are you sure about all that? Everything I've read says farmers generally dislike DST, in part because the animals obviously don't know the time has changed and still expect to be fed/slopped/milked/whatever at the same time regardless of what time we think it is.

[MikeTheActuary]

Simple problem: midnight GMT is somewhere during workday in San Francisco and Tokyo, so date would change mid-day. would be a huge mess with "your appointment is on Tuesday 00.15  GMT - and that was 24 hours ago!

My primary hobby is amateur radio, where almost everything is expressed in UTC.   You get used to accounting for differences of when the calendar changes vs the perceived day local time.

For example, when discussing the start time of this evening's mini-contest, we would describe it as "0300 UTC Thursday (Wednesday evening in the US)".   After a while, it becomes second nature.

Not to mention religious things tied to date or day of week, like Sabbath or Lent.   

Fortunately, for at least the Abrahamic religions, religious observances are traditionally defined by sunset or sunrise, and therefore are not impacted by whether one uses local time or UTC.

[MikeTheActuary]

Dirt Roads, are you sure about all that? Everything I've read says farmers generally dislike DST, in part because the animals obviously don't know the time has changed and still expect to be fed/slopped/milked/whatever at the same time regardless of what time we think it is.

I think that farmers dislike time changes because their animals don't observe it.  Whether they prefer DST or Standard Time devolves to many of the same concerns that non-farmers have.

[kphoger]

I've never known a farmer who decided his work schedule based on what numbers the little hands on the wall clock were pointing to.

[kalvado]

I've never known a farmer who decided his work schedule based on what numbers the little hands on the wall clock were pointing to.

NY is considering applying standard worktime rules to farm workers - hours/day, /week, overtime pay etc.
But basically time on the clock is only needed for coordination with other people - be it that everyone at worksite at the same time, or in an armchair for TV show.If you need to coordinate with the sun, then you can go with "1 hour before sunrize" regardless of any numbers.

[kalvado]

Simple problem: midnight GMT is somewhere during workday in San Francisco and Tokyo, so date would change mid-day. would be a huge mess with "your appointment is on Tuesday 00.15  GMT - and that was 24 hours ago!

My primary hobby is amateur radio, where almost everything is expressed in UTC.   You get used to accounting for differences of when the calendar changes vs the perceived day local time.

For example, when discussing the start time of this evening's mini-contest, we would describe it as "0300 UTC Thursday (Wednesday evening in the US)".   After a while, it becomes second nature.

Not to mention religious things tied to date or day of week, like Sabbath or Lent.   

Fortunately, for at least the Abrahamic religions, religious observances are traditionally defined by sunset or sunrise, and therefore are not impacted by whether one uses local time or UTC.

Don't expect average person to get used to that mess easily.
And Sabbath is linked to sunset times on Friday and Saturday.  What would happen if (when) sunset is at 00.00 GMT, for example? Or there may be no sunset on Friday to begin with, for example.

[NWI_Irish96]

I've never known a farmer who decided his work schedule based on what numbers the little hands on the wall clock were pointing to.

I think the point is that the farmer essentially has to continue to work on a standard time schedule while the family has to live on DST and that's where the inconvenience comes in.

[kalvado]

I've never known a farmer who decided his work schedule based on what numbers the little hands on the wall clock were pointing to.

I think the point is that the farmer essentially has to continue to work on a standard time schedule while the family has to live on DST and that's where the inconvenience comes in.

If we're talking summer, farmer most likely works in the field  way more than anyone on a schedule anyway.

[1995hoo]

It does become relevant if, for example, the farmer participates in local farmers' markets or similar.

[tradephoric]

I think standard time all year would be better.

If the nation was on permanent standard time, the sun would set during the summer solstice in Mexico Beach, Florida at 6:45PM.  If you were visiting Florida on summer vacation, would you want the latest sunset in a Florida beach town to be 6:45PM?  I don't think it's entirely coincidence that the lead sponsor of the Sunshine Protection act is a Senator from Florida.  There is basically a 0% chance that Marco Rubio would have supported a bill that promoted year-round standard time and year-round standard time is never going to happen in this country. 

[mgk920]

I've never known a farmer who decided his work schedule based on what numbers the little hands on the wall clock were pointing to.

I think the point is that the farmer essentially has to continue to work on a standard time schedule while the family has to live on DST and that's where the inconvenience comes in.

I'dd second the part with farm animals. Dairy farmers hate DST beacause their cows do not observe it.

Mike

[tradephoric]

The other great thing about this issue is it acts as a litmus test for who can comprehend simple concepts.  New York Magazine would lead you to believe that Marco Rubio is trying to end Daylight Saving Time when in actuality he is trying to make it permanent.  People want to get rid of the time changes, not Daylight Saving Time... but the lazy media just lump these two concepts together as if they are the same thing.  They may not fully comprehend what they are even reporting on... sad to say.

[thenetwork]

All this talk about sunrise times/morning daylight seems to assume that you live in an area where there are always clear skies in the morning.

I know some people are moaning that winter DST means no daylight until 9AM.

Hell, I've lived in parts of the country where in the winter time, the clouds were so thick in the morning that you'd be driving with your headlights on or your indoor lights on until 10AM because it looked so dreary dark outside.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm confused. Why is daylight savings such a sensitive topic on this forum? I've been here for 5 years and still don't know.

It's political, and it's one area where the Federal government should NOT go. 

Because of latitude and longitude differences, each state should be able to decide what it wants to do, based on the needs of its own people. Here in Arizona, we don't need to be on Mountain Daylight Time because it would get too hot in the evening, with sunset at around 9:30 PM.  Other states further north might want something different because their hours of daylight are longer in the summer and shorter in the winter.  They should be able to determine that for themselves.  And then there's Hawaii, where daylight time is an irrelevancy.

Bottom line:  Congress needs to butt out, repeal the Federal Uniform Time Act, and let the states determine what they need.

Imagine New York and New Jersey being on different times. Time should be handled federally, or even in coordination with other countries (Canada).

[english si]

I feel like I'm in the minority in liking DST. Keeps the morning's from being too dark in the winter, and also reduces a wasted hour of early morning sun in the summer.

I'm coming around to this.

I've tended to be pro year-round standard time: there's not enough light in winter this far north to 'save' an hour of light from an already unpleasantly dark morning to 'use' while people are still at work in the evening, and in summer there's such an excess of daylight (and there's a few weeks without formal night - it's just twilight) that its a much of a muchness where it is.

But around this time of year (and 6 months from now), there's enough light in the morning to lose an hour (sunrise at 0712 instead of 0612), and there's enough sunlight in the evenings that an hour extra gives you time to do something with it (1806 sunset today in London, without Summer Time) that you otherwise wouldn't.

I've become less opposed to changing the clocks because of this: a 7am sunrise is price worth paying for a 7pm sunset (ie DST in early March / early October). But a 9am sunrise is not a price worth paying for a 5pm sunset (ie DST in December/January).

[Rothman]

Pfft.  People who complain about dark mornings ruin the world.

[english si]

Prior to 1987, the USA switched on the last Sunday in April, which meant we had almost exactly six months on DST and six months off.

I really don't get the offset. I can understand the 7 months on/5 months off that Europe does (its closer to 8/4 in North America), but it's not centred around the sun.

Taking the European dates - last Sunday in March is about the same time as the equinox, give or take a week. But the last Sunday in October change is a month later than the equinox, give or take a week. The US dates are similarly falling back about a month later wrt where the sun actually is.

[kphoger]

I've never known a farmer who decided his work schedule based on what numbers the little hands on the wall clock were pointing to.

I think the point is that the farmer essentially has to continue to work on a standard time schedule while the family has to live on DST and that's where the inconvenience comes in.

If we're talking summer, farmer most likely works in the field  way more than anyone on a schedule anyway.

This.  I've never known a farmer whose family wasn't getting home from work/school wa-a-a-y before he was done in the field anyway.  A farmer's family's life revolves around his schedule, not the other way around.

[Dirt Roads]

Dirt Roads, are you sure about all that? Everything I've read says farmers generally dislike DST, in part because the animals obviously don't know the time has changed and still expect to be fed/slopped/milked/whatever at the same time regardless of what time we think it is.

I think that farmers dislike time changes because their animals don't observe it.  Whether they prefer DST or Standard Time devolves to many of the same concerns that non-farmers have.

There have been attempts to permanently standardize the time year-round.  This impact railroads and airlines (and perhaps Greyhound) more than any other business, because of the need to change the ways that long-distance schedules are synchronized.  My understanding was that the main reason that the Congress couldn't agree on whether to adopt standard time permanently or daylight savings time permanently was due to the agricultural lobby.  I do not know whether they were against one, the other, or perhaps both. 

Disregarding the "animals don't observe it" part, I do think that many farmers have some of the same issues as non-farmers.  We know two local cattle farmers, one of which operates on his own schedule and the other who operates a roadside stand and sells in a local farmers market.  I suspect that they have totally different opinions on DST.  But it won't change their farming habits, but rather allow them more/less access to other businesses during what they would call "bankers hours".  Farmhands also tend to work on a clock schedule that is based on ST/DST rather than the solar-based farm schedule.  Also, once-upon-a-time, many smaller farmers would operate school buses in addition to farming duties.  Each of those subgroups see this differently.

[kalvado]

Prior to 1987, the USA switched on the last Sunday in April, which meant we had almost exactly six months on DST and six months off.

I really don't get the offset. I can understand the 7 months on/5 months off that Europe does (its closer to 8/4 in North America), but it's not centred around the sun.

Taking the European dates - last Sunday in March is about the same time as the equinox, give or take a week. But the last Sunday in October change is a month later than the equinox, give or take a week. The US dates are similarly falling back about a month later wrt where the sun actually is.

I heard 2 reasons.
1. power plant maintenance is a big thing about scheduling. Shifting times to minimize power consumption before and after peak seasons (cold winter and hot summer) is the factor. Although, with LED lights becoming standard, that should be less of a factor.
2. promoting more outdoor activities - hence DST centered at outdoor temperature, not the sun directly. Here we still have snow for spring equinox, but October is generally mild enough to be outdoors. 

[kkt]

All this talk about sunrise times/morning daylight seems to assume that you live in an area where there are always clear skies in the morning.

I know some people are moaning that winter DST means no daylight until 9AM.

Hell, I've lived in parts of the country where in the winter time, the clouds were so thick in the morning that you'd be driving with your headlights on or your indoor lights on until 10AM because it looked so dreary dark outside.

There's lots and lots of cloudy days here, but even on days of thick clouds it's noticeably brighter after the sun is up.  Colors are visible and it helps keep the body's clock set.

[hotdogPi]

I've noticed that on my walks, I can go without a flashlight 10 minutes after sunset if it's cloudy and 20 if it's clear. (This was near the winter solstice, in case it matters how fast the sun sets.)

[kphoger]

There have been attempts to permanently standardize the time year-round.  This impact railroads and airlines (and perhaps Greyhound) more than any other business, because of the need to change the ways that long-distance schedules are synchronized.

Wouldn't the elimination of two time changes per year make synchronizing schedules easier, not harder?

[skluth]

Dirt Roads, are you sure about all that? Everything I've read says farmers generally dislike DST, in part because the animals obviously don't know the time has changed and still expect to be fed/slopped/milked/whatever at the same time regardless of what time we think it is.

I think that farmers dislike time changes because their animals don't observe it.  Whether they prefer DST or Standard Time devolves to many of the same concerns that non-farmers have.

There have been attempts to permanently standardize the time year-round.  This impact railroads and airlines (and perhaps Greyhound) more than any other business, because of the need to change the ways that long-distance schedules are synchronized.  My understanding was that the main reason that the Congress couldn't agree on whether to adopt standard time permanently or daylight savings time permanently was due to the agricultural lobby.  I do not know whether they were against one, the other, or perhaps both. 

Disregarding the "animals don't observe it" part, I do think that many farmers have some of the same issues as non-farmers.  We know two local cattle farmers, one of which operates on his own schedule and the other who operates a roadside stand and sells in a local farmers market.  I suspect that they have totally different opinions on DST.  But it won't change their farming habits, but rather allow them more/less access to other businesses during what they would call "bankers hours".  Farmhands also tend to work on a clock schedule that is based on ST/DST rather than the solar-based farm schedule.  Also, once-upon-a-time, many smaller farmers would operate school buses in addition to farming duties.  Each of those subgroups see this differently.

Have any of you ever worked on a farm? I never really did, but I did spend time avoiding work on my uncles' farms during the summer when I was a kid. One uncle had a pig farm. One had a dairy farm. They both operated on a schedule that didn't change an hour for DST. Cows expect to be milked the same time every day. The pigs liked to be fed on a schedule and would become problematic otherwise, much like my cat.

I've also had several friends who grew up on farms. I don't recall any liking DST and some outright hated it. They all thought it was nothing more than a city thing which allowed city people to stay out later in the summer, especially those doing outdoor activities.

A rural resident who operates a roadside stand may be one of a family of farmers. But that's not farm work. That's self-employed retail.

[Dirt Roads]

There have been attempts to permanently standardize the time year-round.  This impact railroads and airlines (and perhaps Greyhound) more than any other business, because of the need to change the ways that long-distance schedules are synchronized.

Wouldn't the elimination of two time changes per year make synchronizing schedules easier, not harder?

Any changes means software changes.  Some companies simply adopt whatever time signal they get from their Internet provider (or for someone who shelled out the big bucks, the time signal that they get from NIST based on UTC - ergo, an atomic clock feed).

I think that the bigger issues would be related to whether some states, counties and perhaps other jurisdictions decide they belong in this time zone (new DST) or that time zone (old standard time).  When I worked for the Chessie System, we solved that problem by avoiding Indiana time by saying that everything west of Little Washington was on St. Louis time and everything east was on Cincinnati time (I'm sure there were similar examples for the northern tier of Indiana).

But you are right on target.  This should not be a big issue for railroads and airlines (and perhaps Greyhound).  And they have the worst impact.