Daylight Savings Time (2022): Once And For All!!!

[kalvado]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

Shifting sunrise/sunset times back a half hour while maintaining JayhawkCO "Sunrise time is more important" selection - there is a lot less yellow.  There is definitely a change there.

If anything, this map may send a message that 1 hour steps are too crude. Going to 30 min zones? Not unheard of, India with "rotate your clock" is an example. May add some mess short-term, though

[JayhawkCO]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

The text below the map on the site makes it clear the author is not neutral on the subject, and his choice of data points reinforces that.

Well, considering the summer/winter thing, I think people only reaaaalllly care about the daylight when it's shorter. I don't think anyone in Minnesota complains that they have sunlight at 9:00 PM in June. It makes more sense to try to accommodate people's concerns in the wintertime.

OK, so then "no change" should not be an option. As kkt noted, right now it's factoring in summer preferences without having enough information to do so. "No change" and "abolish DST" are redundant if you're looking at winter only.

And that's fair. Either way, the author even says that the tool isn't some foolproof solution or idealization thereof. It gives you a general idea of what your preferences would align with. I didn't post to have everyone take it as gospel by any means.

[DenverBrian]

To me, the map only works if you think about latest reasonable sunrise time and earliest reasonable sunset time for the entire year.

tradephoric inputs an earliest reasonable sunset time of 7 PM, which is impossible in winter under any circumstances except perhaps double DST.

I input an latest reasonable sunrise of 8 AM and an earliest reasonable sunset of 5:30 PM, with sunset being very important, and got quite a bit of green on the board to move to permanent DST. <shrugs>

[tradephoric]

Imagine working till 5PM then fighting traffic and making it home between 5:30-6PM.  An earliest reasonable sunset of 7PM at least gives people an hour after they get home before the sun sets.  Maybe they got to do a brake job on their car but they don't have a lighted garage (a job that becomes very difficult once it gets dark).  Now if you live in San Diego and the country was on permanent standard time, the sun would always set before 7PM even in the middle of summer.  This means if you have a steady 9-5 job in San Diego, you would really never have enough time to do a brake job during the week (but what if you already have weekend plans and really need that brake job done before the weekend?). 

One could argue that they should stop by a brake shop during their lunch break and pay through the nose for a job.  It's almost as arrogant as suggesting someone buy an EV to combat high gas prices... and disregarding how expensive EV's are.  The other option is getting up at 4:40AM when the sun rises in San Diego in the summer (assuming permanent standard time) and do the brake job before work.  But we all know how it goes... a quick 30 minute brake job always seems to turn into 3 hours and 30 minutes of cursing.  If you can't finish the brake job in time, now you are stuck having to get to work with no vehicle.  At least if you start the brake job at night and realize you won't be able to finish in time, you have over 10 hours to coordinate an alternate ride before work the next morning. 

If people don't have at least an hour of daylight after work, that's not enough.  Hence why i choose 7PM for the earliest reasonable sunset time.

[webny99]

If people don't have at least an hour of daylight after work, that's not enough.  Hence why i choose 7PM for the earliest reasonable sunset time.

You do realize that means sunrises after 10AM for much of the country in the winter, right?

[JayhawkCO]

If people don't have at least an hour of daylight after work, that's not enough.  Hence why i choose 7PM for the earliest reasonable sunset time.

You do realize that means sunrises after 10AM for much of the country in the winter, right?

The classic AARoads logical fallacy of assuming every other place in the country is just like yours.

[kkt]

Here's a fun tool to figure out if you should be in favor of abolishing DST, keeping it full time, or staying with the status quo.

Interesting tool, but with a huge glaring issue: The only inputs are latest sunrise and earliest sunset, so the two most important things in the winter are weighted to 100% while the two most important things during the summer are weighted to 0%. It really needs a third and fourth input for earliest sunrise and latest sunset to be of any use.

Yes.  Especially if one of the things you're considering is whether or not to change times twice a year.

[tradephoric]

If people don't have at least an hour of daylight after work, that's not enough.  Hence why i choose 7PM for the earliest reasonable sunset time.

You do realize that means sunrises after 10AM for much of the country in the winter, right?

I'm not suggesting that we guarantee the sun is still up by 7PM throughout the entire country even in the middle of winter.  If that was attempted than you would see sunrises after 10AM throughout much of the country.  The reality is in the middle of winter the sun will set by 5PM in places (even under permanent daylight saving time) and there's not a whole lot that can be done with that.  I'm personally OK with 5PM sunsets in Maine during the winter.  What I'm not cool with is that the sun would set in San Diego at 6:59PM during the longest day of the year under permanent standard time.  People would barely have time (if they could finish at all) to do a simple brake job after work before the sun goes down. 

[JayhawkCO]

If people don't have at least an hour of daylight after work, that's not enough.  Hence why i choose 7PM for the earliest reasonable sunset time.

You do realize that means sunrises after 10AM for much of the country in the winter, right?

I'm not suggesting that we guarantee the sun is still up by 7PM throughout the entire country even in the middle of winter.  If that was attempted than you would see sunrises after 10AM throughout much of the country.  The reality is in the middle of winter the sun will set by 5PM in places (even under permanent daylight saving time) and there's not a whole lot that can be done with that.  I'm personally OK with 5PM sunsets in Maine during the winter.  What I'm not cool with is that the sun would set in San Diego at 6:59PM during the longest day of the year under permanent standard time.  People would barely have time (if they could finish at all) to do a simple brake job after work before the sun goes down.

Do it before work.  If you want the sun to set at 7 PM exactly, the sun would rise at 4:45 AM in late June.

[kkt]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

Shifting sunrise/sunset times back a half hour while maintaining JayhawkCO "Sunrise time is more important" selection - there is a lot less yellow.  There is definitely a change there.

If anything, this map may send a message that 1 hour steps are too crude. Going to 30 min zones? Not unheard of, India with "rotate your clock" is an example. May add some mess short-term, though

India has a single time zone for the entire country, when it occupies enough longitude that it could easily be two time zones.

I wonder if half hour clock changes would be easier for the people who have trouble adjusting to it.  Would it be better to jump 30 minutes forward at the beginning of March and than another 30 minutes forward at the beginning of April?  Or would it just be twice as bad?

[JayhawkCO]

China is worse.

[webny99]

If people don't have at least an hour of daylight after work, that's not enough.  Hence why i choose 7PM for the earliest reasonable sunset time.

You do realize that means sunrises after 10AM for much of the country in the winter, right?

The classic AARoads logical fallacy of assuming every other place in the country is just like yours.

I was very careful to say much of the country, not the entire country. 

[tradephoric]

I'm not suggesting that we guarantee the sun is still up by 7PM throughout the entire country even in the middle of winter.  If that was attempted than you would see sunrises after 10AM throughout much of the country.  The reality is in the middle of winter the sun will set by 5PM in places (even under permanent daylight saving time) and there's not a whole lot that can be done with that.  I'm personally OK with 5PM sunsets in Maine during the winter.  What I'm not cool with is that the sun would set in San Diego at 6:59PM during the longest day of the year under permanent standard time.  People would barely have time (if they could finish at all) to do a simple brake job after work before the sun goes down.

Do it before work.  If you want the sun to set at 7 PM exactly, the sun would rise at 4:45 AM in late June.

Doesn't a 4:45AM sunrise seem awfully early especially considering the sun would set in San Diego at 6:59PM during the summer solstice?  And name me one person who wants to get up at 4:45AM to do a brake job before work.  In my previous post i explained why this isn't a great option either...

The other option is getting up at 4:40AM when the sun rises in San Diego in the summer (assuming permanent standard time) and do the brake job before work.  But we all know how it goes... a quick 30 minute brake job always seems to turn into 3 hours and 30 minutes of cursing.  If you can't finish the brake job in time, now you are stuck having to get to work with no vehicle.  At least if you start the brake job at night and realize you won't be able to finish in time, you have over 10 hours to coordinate an alternate ride before work the next morning. 

[JayhawkCO]

I'm not suggesting that we guarantee the sun is still up by 7PM throughout the entire country even in the middle of winter.  If that was attempted than you would see sunrises after 10AM throughout much of the country.  The reality is in the middle of winter the sun will set by 5PM in places (even under permanent daylight saving time) and there's not a whole lot that can be done with that.  I'm personally OK with 5PM sunsets in Maine during the winter.  What I'm not cool with is that the sun would set in San Diego at 6:59PM during the longest day of the year under permanent standard time.  People would barely have time (if they could finish at all) to do a simple brake job after work before the sun goes down.

Do it before work.  If you want the sun to set at 7 PM exactly, the sun would rise at 4:45 AM in late June.

Doesn't a 4:45AM sunrise seem awfully early especially considering the sun would set in San Diego at 6:59PM during the summer solstice?  And name me one person who wants to get up at 4:45AM to do a brake job before work.  In my previous post i explained why this isn't a great option either...

The other option is getting up at 4:40AM when the sun rises in San Diego in the summer (assuming permanent standard time) and do the brake job before work.  But we all know how it goes... a quick 30 minute brake job always seems to turn into 3 hours and 30 minutes of cursing.  If you can't finish the brake job in time, now you are stuck having to get to work with no vehicle.  At least if you start the brake job at night and realize you won't be able to finish in time, you have over 10 hours to coordinate an alternate ride before work the next morning. 

Sorry I missed you had pre-empted.

I mean, if you need a ride to work, Uber isn't hard to book on 10 minutes' notice. I guess I fail to see the relevance of a long running car maintenance project to the subject at hand.

I think, in an ideal world, we get rid of time changes but also recalibrate the time zones at the same time. Just with a quick Googling, the U.S. loses $434,000,000 in productivity during the Spring time change because of sleep schedules getting all screwed up. But then we need most of New England to move to Atlantic time among other changes.

[kalvado]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

Shifting sunrise/sunset times back a half hour while maintaining JayhawkCO "Sunrise time is more important" selection - there is a lot less yellow.  There is definitely a change there.

If anything, this map may send a message that 1 hour steps are too crude. Going to 30 min zones? Not unheard of, India with "rotate your clock" is an example. May add some mess short-term, though

India has a single time zone for the entire country, when it occupies enough longitude that it could easily be two time zones.

I wonder if half hour clock changes would be easier for the people who have trouble adjusting to it.  Would it be better to jump 30 minutes forward at the beginning of March and than another 30 minutes forward at the beginning of April?  Or would it just be twice as bad?

India has a 5.30 offset to GMT, i.e. a fractional time zone. There are 15 min offsets, if I remember correctly, but India story is... funny.

[jp the roadgeek]

My idea was redrawing the time zone lines and remaining on the same time year round.  I basically did it by TV DMA's.  For example, the portions of NY state that would remain on EST are the Rochester and Buffalo DMA's.  The couple of counties in NC that would go to AST are part of the Norfolk DMA, and Garrett County, MD, because it is part of the Pittsburgh DMA, would be the only county in MD on EST.  Here is my plan:

[hotdogPi]

You've split too many states. For example, both of Oregon's yellow counties are very rural and could be red, as they don't need to match anything in another state.

[jeffandnicole]

You've split too many states. For example, both of Oregon's yellow counties are very rural and could be red, as they don't need to match anything in another state.

Heck, he even split NC's Outer Banks!

[Bruce]

You've split too many states. For example, both of Oregon's yellow counties are very rural and could be red, as they don't need to match anything in another state.

Actually, Malheur County (at the southeast corner of Oregon) is already split from the rest of the state due to their need to be on the same time as Boise.

Not sure if the Washington split would make sense, but at least the DMA boundary avoids splitting metropolitan areas. The Palouse being an hour away from the Tri-Cities would definitely be weird, though.

[tradephoric]

My idea was redrawing the time zone lines and remaining on the same time year round.  I basically did it by TV DMA's.  For example, the portions of NY state that would remain on EST are the Rochester and Buffalo DMA's.  The couple of counties in NC that would go to AST are part of the Norfolk DMA, and Garrett County, MD, because it is part of the Pittsburgh DMA, would be the only county in MD on EST.  Here is my plan:

Would the entire country be on standard time year round with the adjustments in time zones?  If so, then Florida would be losing an hour of evening sunshine during the summer.  Marco Rubio is the lead sponsor of the Sunshine Protection Act and the whole idea was to add an hour of evening sunshine for Florida in the winter; not to take an hour of evening sunshine away during the summer. 

[DenverBrian]

Shifting it half an hour did nothing. The reason it changed was because you chose sunset is more important – with the two selected times being 12 hours apart, it is impossible to satisfy both between the fall equinox and the spring equinox no matter what you choose.

Also, that map really should have had a different projection. They curved the map but not the grid squares.

Shifting sunrise/sunset times back a half hour while maintaining JayhawkCO "Sunrise time is more important" selection - there is a lot less yellow.  There is definitely a change there.

If anything, this map may send a message that 1 hour steps are too crude. Going to 30 min zones? Not unheard of, India with "rotate your clock" is an example. May add some mess short-term, though

India has a single time zone for the entire country, when it occupies enough longitude that it could easily be two time zones.

I wonder if half hour clock changes would be easier for the people who have trouble adjusting to it.  Would it be better to jump 30 minutes forward at the beginning of March and than another 30 minutes forward at the beginning of April?  Or would it just be twice as bad?

Something I've proposed before is a "split the difference" solution: Advance all current time zones by 30 minutes and be done with it. Bully if Canada and Mexico join us. This would eliminate clock changes, but if we advance by only 30 minutes, it mitigates a lot of the "kids in the dark waiting for the school bus" wailing in the winter. And as others point out, a +30 minute time zone is not unheard of worldwide.

[jp the roadgeek]

You've split too many states. For example, both of Oregon's yellow counties are very rural and could be red, as they don't need to match anything in another state.

Heck, he even split NC's Outer Banks!

Those Outer Banks counties in green are part of the Norfolk DMA. The orange ones are part of the Greenville/New Bern market. The WV counties in green are part of the DC and Harrisonburg, VA markets.  For the EST/CST boundary, I generally followed the Mississippi River, giving any DMA that straddles it to EST.  This explains some of the bulges to the west (the Twin Cities DMA stretches almost to the ND border)     

[US 89]

Something I've proposed before is a "split the difference" solution: Advance all current time zones by 30 minutes and be done with it. Bully if Canada and Mexico join us. This would eliminate clock changes, but if we advance by only 30 minutes, it mitigates a lot of the "kids in the dark waiting for the school bus" wailing in the winter. And as others point out, a +30 minute time zone is not unheard of worldwide.

It's not unheard of, but it would get really annoying and unnecessarily complicated for those of us who need to make UTC conversions rapidly multiple times a day.

[jeffandnicole]

Something I've proposed before is a "split the difference" solution: Advance all current time zones by 30 minutes and be done with it. Bully if Canada and Mexico join us. This would eliminate clock changes, but if we advance by only 30 minutes, it mitigates a lot of the "kids in the dark waiting for the school bus" wailing in the winter. And as others point out, a +30 minute time zone is not unheard of worldwide.

It's not unheard of, but it would get really annoying and unnecessarily complicated for those of us who need to make UTC conversions rapidly multiple times a day.

How many really need to do that though? And if it's one and done, I would think you would get used to the same differences pretty quick.

[tolbs17]

My idea was redrawing the time zone lines and remaining on the same time year round.  I basically did it by TV DMA's.  For example, the portions of NY state that would remain on EST are the Rochester and Buffalo DMA's.  The couple of counties in NC that would go to AST are part of the Norfolk DMA, and Garrett County, MD, because it is part of the Pittsburgh DMA, would be the only county in MD on EST.  Here is my plan:

That's a no to me