EV pickup range while towing

[hotdogPi]

Most people don't tow trailers.

In addition, the majority of the US population is urban or suburban, which means that their daily commute plus shopping trips is well below 100 miles.

[jeffandnicole]

If I can go to Home Depot and choose between an electric weed eater or a gas powered one, why can't we do the same thing with cars?

Interesting example, since gas powered lawn equipment is being banned left and right. They create a huge amount of local pollution and everyone hates the noise.

A) Those bans haven't even been talked about where I live...

For what it's worth, it's been discussed in Dallas, so there is a little movement on it on the state. They haven't banned them yet, but the attention is there.

My point was that, in public parking facilities like that, an EV charger is more of a show-off novelty today. "Look how environmentally conscious we're being, we've installed chargers." When there might be 2 slots. If a majority, or even a significant minority, of vehicles become EV, there won't be enough capacity at stores and attractions to charge those who want to use them.

Simple economics.

Do you, and anyone who is against EVs, really think that once a place installs 2 chargers they'll never keep up with demand? Like any other business anywhere, as more people get an EV, if the parking garage determines they can make money off people charging their car in the facility they'll install more.

Hardware stores are stocking up on battery-operated equipment because the price has dwindled enough to where people will buy them.

[jeffandnicole]

So 130 years from now... when you are 177 years old... will they finally be able to push that range up to at least 200 miles between charges when towing a trailer?  I guess it won't matter to you by that point.

You said yourself it was a prototype. Not all prototypes become the standard. 

The *MODERN* EV range will easily be doubled in the next 10 years, across all types of vehicles.

The average ICE fuel mileage for an F-150 when towing a trailer is a miserable 15.7 mpg. If gas and diesel have been the gold standard for powering vehicles over the past 100 years, why hasn't that been improved upon?

[tradephoric]

So 130 years from now... when you are 177 years old... will they finally be able to push that range up to at least 200 miles between charges when towing a trailer?  I guess it won't matter to you by that point.

You said yourself it was a prototype. Not all prototypes become the standard. 

The *MODERN* EV range will easily be doubled in the next 10 years, across all types of vehicles.

The average ICE fuel mileage for an F-150 when towing a trailer is a miserable 15.7 mpg. If gas and diesel have been the gold standard for powering vehicles over the past 100 years, why hasn't that been improved upon?

Gas and diesels are still the gold standard because you can store a lot more energy in a 36 gallon tank in your F-150 compared to a 98 kWh battery pack in your F-150 Lightning.  Even at just 10 mpg, a 36 gallon tank will get you over 300 miles before your next stop. When you do got to fill up it takes you 5 minutes.  The F-150 Lightning on the other hand... don't expect 5 minute charge times and don't expect 300 miles of range when towing.

[jeffandnicole]

So 130 years from now... when you are 177 years old... will they finally be able to push that range up to at least 200 miles between charges when towing a trailer?  I guess it won't matter to you by that point.

You said yourself it was a prototype. Not all prototypes become the standard. 

The *MODERN* EV range will easily be doubled in the next 10 years, across all types of vehicles.

The average ICE fuel mileage for an F-150 when towing a trailer is a miserable 15.7 mpg. If gas and diesel have been the gold standard for powering vehicles over the past 100 years, why hasn't that been improved upon?

Gas and diesels are still the gold standard because you can store a lot more energy in a 36 gallon tank in your F-150 compared to a 98 kWh battery pack in your F-150 Lightning.  Even at just 10 mpg, a 36 gallon tank will get you over 300 miles before your next stop. When you do got to fill up it takes you 5 minutes.  The F-150 Lightning on the other hand... don't expect 5 minute charge times and don't expect 300 miles of range when towing.

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

[tradephoric]

The premium F-150 with a 36 gallon tank for $75,000 is still 20k less than the F-150 Lightning Platinum for around $97,000.  Nearly 100k for a pickup truck... what world are we living in! 

[mgk920]

So 130 years from now... when you are 177 years old... will they finally be able to push that range up to at least 200 miles between charges when towing a trailer?  I guess it won't matter to you by that point.

You said yourself it was a prototype. Not all prototypes become the standard. 

The *MODERN* EV range will easily be doubled in the next 10 years, across all types of vehicles.

The average ICE fuel mileage for an F-150 when towing a trailer is a miserable 15.7 mpg. If gas and diesel have been the gold standard for powering vehicles over the past 100 years, why hasn't that been improved upon?

That 'modern' EV pickup truck still won't be able to tow an Airstream trailer from Green River, UT to Salina, UT without getting stranded.

Mike

[tradephoric]

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

With the 23 gallon tank and the 15.7 MPG fuel mileage while towing that you cited, the F-150 will go 361.1 miles on a full tank.  More importantly it only takes 5 minutes to fill up.  The EV F-150 Lightning has a long way to go before matching that.

[jeffandnicole]

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

With the 23 gallon tank and the 15.7 MPG fuel mileage while towing that you cited, the F-150 will go 361.1 miles on a full tank.  More importantly it only takes 5 minutes to fill up.  The EV F-150 Lightning has a long way to go before matching that.

Except on the rare long-haul trips, most will charge them overnight at home, taking a few seconds to plug in and unplug, without needs to stop on the road at all.

So 130 years from now... when you are 177 years old... will they finally be able to push that range up to at least 200 miles between charges when towing a trailer?  I guess it won't matter to you by that point.

You said yourself it was a prototype. Not all prototypes become the standard. 

The *MODERN* EV range will easily be doubled in the next 10 years, across all types of vehicles.

The average ICE fuel mileage for an F-150 when towing a trailer is a miserable 15.7 mpg. If gas and diesel have been the gold standard for powering vehicles over the past 100 years, why hasn't that been improved upon?

That 'modern' EV pickup truck still won't be able to tow an Airstream trailer from Green River, UT to Salina, UT without getting stranded.

Mike

I don't think many will try.

Of course, how did the 1st generation F-150s do, compared to their modern day equivilents, or to the 1st generation EVs?

Like many products, people nowadays want and expect instant perfection and gratification when something is introduced. 10 years ago, EVs really didn't even exist, and now there's a few million on the road.   I'm not surprised at the number of people that compare and instantly poo-poo 1st generation EVs comparing them to products that have been out for decades (and still often have considerable issues). Would love to see everyone's attitude who are against EVs now in a decade when EV market share is tremendously higher.

[Scott5114]

The cannonball runs have also been done with gasoline engines that have been updated and improved upon for a hundred years. Modern EVs have been around a decade or so. Really no comparison, and future EVs will have greatly reduced distance times.

The first successful EV in America dates back to 1890 when William Morrison debuted his 6-passenger electrified vehicle capable of top speeds of 14 mph.  A working prototype has been around for over 130 years with the opportunity during that time for people to tinker and improve its design.  Yet after 130 years a production EV struggles to drive over 100 miles between charges when towing a trailer at freeway speeds.  You may think pointing that out is a cheap shot but it's still a fact. 

Of course it's a cheap shot. Something else came along to power vehicles and that became the standard. Nothing unusual about that whatsoever. Standards change over time, and things improve.

So 130 years from now... when you are 177 years old... will they finally be able to push that range up to at least 200 miles between charges when towing a trailer?  I guess it won't matter to you by that point.

Joke's on you, it doesn't matter to most people NOW.

[vdeane]

I don't think people are going to care about the "five minute" part much either.  Most people don't drive several hundred miles with only a stop for gas.  They're going to want to go to the bathroom, get snacks, and eat lunch (somewhere other than in their car while driving).  Once chargers are more widespread and in more convenient locations, these things will be able to be combined.

[tradephoric]

I don't think people are going to care about the "five minute" part much either.  Most people don't drive several hundred miles with only a stop for gas.  They're going to want to go to the bathroom, get snacks, and eat lunch (somewhere other than in their car while driving).  Once chargers are more widespread and in more convenient locations, these things will be able to be combined.

One of the biggest points of this thread is that you can only drive about 100 miles while towing a trailer in these new EV pickups coming to market.  Do you really want to stop and eat lunch every 100 miles while you are towing your camper to Yosemite?  That's a lot of lunches during the day.

[vdeane]

Believe it or not, there are people who already stop to stretch and use the restroom that often.  And again, you're assuming no improvements over the next decade.

[tradephoric]

Me pointing out that current EV pickups only get about 100 miles of range while towing a trailer doesn't mean that I'm assuming there will be no battery improvements over the next decade.  You are assuming that I'm assuming that.

[tradephoric]

Assuming a doubling of energy density in batteries every decade, by 2032 with the same sized battery pack you could expect to see a driving range of about 200 miles while towing a camper in an EV pickup as opposed to the 100 miles we see today.  Still not overly impressive considering you can currently drive over 300 miles while towing a camper in most ICE pickups.

[Occidental Tourist]

Believe it or not, there are people who already stop to stretch and use the restroom that often.  And again, you're assuming no improvements over the next decade.

Just drove my family from LA to Sedona.  If I had stopped every 100 miles to take a 50-to-90 minute stretch and pee break, it would have added a minimum of four additional hours to the trip and I would have had a mutiny on my hands.  No thanks.

[Scott5114]

I mean, I know it feels like history ended in 2015, but I don't think it actually did...

Google returns a lot of results showing that the cost per kWh in 2021 was $132, and the University of Washington says gravitational energy density has reached 265 Wh/kg.

[tradephoric]

Google returns a lot of results showing that the cost per kWh in 2021 was $132, and the University of Washington says gravitational energy density has reached 265 Wh/kg.

What University of Washington study are you citing where it says the energy density has reached 265 Wh/kg?  The chart i cited from 2015 looks like it has a density of around 250 Wh/kg... so 7 years later it's only up to 265 Wh/kg?  That would be only a 6% improvement in 7 years.  Or are you citing a study that is from 2015 too?  A 6% improvement in energy density over 7 years wouldn't be game-changing. 

[Scott5114]

https://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/battery-technology/

This is an informational page, so it may well be saying that 265 is what's commercially available, and not actually the top of the range of what's technologically possible. I don't care enough to look for specs any longer than it takes to show that your little chart is outdated, you see.

Of course, the price is the important thing–if they're $1 each you just can put two of them on there.

[tradephoric]

Of course, the price is the important thing–if they're $1 each you just can put two of them on there.

Gross vehicle weight is also important.  Moving 1,200 lbs of batteries down the road (weight of a current Tesla battery pack) is obviously less efficient than moving 120 lbs worth of gasoline (the weight of 20 gallons of gas).  It's another order of magnitude extreme that you don't want to see with EVs.  The biggest order of magnitude extreme is still the charge time though... 2 to 3 minute fill ups with ICE vehicles have turned into 20 to 30 minute charge times with EVs.  That's unacceptably long for many consumers and one of the biggest factors why they may not want to switch to an EV. 

[hotdogPi]

I can already feel this turning into another crash-prone modern roundabouts-type argument thread...

[tradephoric]

I can already feel this turning into another crash-prone modern roundabouts-type argument thread...

Your previous post has already indicated your disregard and disinterest to EV towing range.  It's not important to you as "most people don't tow trailers".  If that's your mindset, any post you make regarding this topic is not likely to be constructive.  Find another thread to cause drama in.

[tradephoric]

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

With the 23 gallon tank and the 15.7 MPG fuel mileage while towing that you cited, the F-150 will go 361.1 miles on a full tank.  More importantly it only takes 5 minutes to fill up.  The EV F-150 Lightning has a long way to go before matching that.

Except on the rare long-haul trips, most will charge them overnight at home, taking a few seconds to plug in and unplug, without needs to stop on the road at all.

I don't necessarily consider 100 miles a "long-haul trip" when someone is towing their trailer in a F-150 Lightning.  Imagine a contractor who is towing heavy equipment to a job site... you can't see them having to drive over 100 miles during the course of the day?  Instead of a quick 5-minute fill up they are burning daylight waiting 45-minutes to charge up.  And with the F-150 Lightning they are burning 45-minutes of daylight for every 100 miles they have to drive during their day...

[jeffandnicole]

The 36 gallon tank ain't standard. 23 & 26 gallon tanks are, giving you a third less ramge than you tried claiming. You're looking at the premium F-150 truck lines, which start around $75,000.

Nice try compaing apples with bananas buddy.

With the 23 gallon tank and the 15.7 MPG fuel mileage while towing that you cited, the F-150 will go 361.1 miles on a full tank.  More importantly it only takes 5 minutes to fill up.  The EV F-150 Lightning has a long way to go before matching that.

Except on the rare long-haul trips, most will charge them overnight at home, taking a few seconds to plug in and unplug, without needs to stop on the road at all.

I don't necessarily consider 100 miles a "long-haul trip" when someone is towing their trailer in a F-150 Lightning.  Imagine a contractor who is towing heavy equipment to a job site... you can't see them having to drive over 100 miles during the course of the day?  Instead of a quick 5-minute fill up they are burning daylight waiting 45-minutes to charge up.  And with the F-150 Lightning they are burning 45-minutes of daylight for every 100 miles they have to drive during their day...

Sounds like they purchased the wrong vehicle then. 

Here's a great list of F-150 towing capacities. https://www.cornerstoneplymouth.com/ford-f-150-towing-capacities/ .  If the contractor went cheap with a 3.3L Ti-VCT V6, they would be screwed if the job required them to be towing a 10,000 lb piece of equipment.  Instead, they'd be burning daylight going to the rental depot to get another vehicle that could tow what was needed to be towed, or paying someone else, burning cash.

You can always make strawman arguments to fit your beliefs.  Anyone looking to purchase a vehicle should be looking at all vehicles on the market today that'll fit their needs, and write-off the ones that don't.

[vdeane]

Assuming a doubling of energy density in batteries every decade, by 2032 with the same sized battery pack you could expect to see a driving range of about 200 miles while towing a camper in an EV pickup as opposed to the 100 miles we see today.  Still not overly impressive considering you can currently drive over 300 miles while towing a camper in most ICE pickups.

But that's my point - how many people are going to be interested in going 300 miles without stopping (whether towing or not)?  I've done it on all-interstate driving before, but only the first 150 miles is really comfortable, the next 150 is with my bladder being a nuisance.  And if I had a whole glass of water or something before that driving leg, the comfortable range drops down to 100 miles, maybe even less.

Believe it or not, there are people who already stop to stretch and use the restroom that often.  And again, you're assuming no improvements over the next decade.

Just drove my family from LA to Sedona.  If I had stopped every 100 miles to take a 50-to-90 minute stretch and pee break, it would have added a minimum of four additional hours to the trip and I would have had a mutiny on my hands.  No thanks.

If charging time at a DC fast charger (like Electrify America or a Supercharger) is 50-90 minutes, something is wrong.  10-20 is more normal, depending on the state of charge pulling in and how much is necessary for the next leg of the trip.  This is one area where a mindset change from driving an ICE car is needed.  With an ICE car, we fill up to 100% every time, unless we're broke and only adding what we can afford.  With an EV, one only wants to put in what is needed to get to the next charger or one's destination, not only to save on charging time, but to better preserve the battery.  Regularly charging up to 100% not only takes forever (as the charge rate slows to a trickle past around 80% or so depending on the car), it degrades the battery.  A battery that is rarely charged past 80% will last a lot longer than one that is charged to 100% every time.  I believe 80-20 is the range that most EV owners try to stick between, from what I've read and watched.  Believe it or not, stopping more often and charging less at each stop can be faster than stopping less often and filling up more.  It's the exact opposite of how things are with ICE cars.