NYC parking rules and snow removal

[empirestate]

You're probably aware that New York City has gotten a lot of snow lately, which has led to numerous suspensions of the alternate side parking regulations in order to "facilitate snow removal".

If you're not familiar with alternate side regulations, in most areas of the city, one or two times a week per side, street parking is prohibited for a 90-minute period so that street cleaning can occur. So when the rules are suspended, cars can remain parked along the curb.

I'm curious as to how leaving the cars parked facilitates snow removal, especially since the DOT website notes that while the rules are often suspended before and during snow storms, they are typically reinstated afterward so that plowing can occur along the curb. But for example, today and tomorrow, following two heavy snows, and with fair weather upon us, the rules continue to be suspended during the time you'd expect to be best for removing snow.

Is anybody familiar with DOT operations and why leaving the cars parked would actually make snow removal easier? Certainly from the mess we have now, if this is how things look when snow removal is facilitated, I'd hate to see how it looks when snow removal is not facilitated!

[agentsteel53]

people will remove the snow around their own cars?

[empirestate]

people will remove the snow around their own cars?

Well yeah, some will. But of course, if everybody has to move, then everybody would have to clear their car instead of just some.

[Brandon]

people will remove the snow around their own cars?

In some places it's called "Dibs".  Don't forget the old chair or other assorted garbage.

[Alps]

I think the idea is more simply not making people drive on icy roads or in otherwise bad conditions.

[empirestate]

In some places it's called "Dibs".  Don't forget the old chair or other assorted garbage.

Well, certainly there's a whole large topic to be discussed there; there's probably already a thread on that. But my question is about NYCDOT policy specifically (or other cities that may have similar practices).

I think the idea is more simply not making people drive on icy roads or in otherwise bad conditions.

Which makes sense before and during a storm. But I'm thinking of suspensions made for the express purpose of facilitating snow removal, during the days after the snow. I'm wondering about the disparity between:

After a snowfall, alternate side parking regulations will be restored so that plows can begin removing snow and ice from curbside lanes.

which is from NYCDOT's web site, and:

Alternate Side Parking regulations will be suspended citywide tomorrow, Friday, February 7, 2014, to facilitate snow removal.

which is their announcement of the suspension. So, they're taking the opposite action to their stated practice, but to accomplish the same stated goal. Since my uneducated guess is that the first action would be more conducive to facilitating snow removal, I'm curious why they have lately been choosing the second action instead.

[Desert Man]

Thank god I don't live back east or up north having to shovel feet of snow in my property. Heck, if I was a child growing up in a snowy climate I would LOVE it...adults view winter differently. If the snow plows don't come, you're gonna have to remove snow yourself...a healthy exercise to get your body warm (LoL).

[Duke87]

Yeah, it's perplexing to me, too. Almost seems like what's actually happening is they're saying "we'll keep suspending alternate side parking until the snow mostly melts, this way people who don't have to use their cars won't need to go dig them out just to move them".

Of course, the traditional policy is somewhat of a double edged sword. Getting a car out of a space where it was buried in snow is significantly easier than subsequently getting a car into that same space that's still covered in snow. If you make everyone move their cars and then plow the parking lane, great, you've improved things a lot. But if you make everyone move their cars and then don't plow the parking lane, now you've just created a bigger mess. And with a lot of streets being half no parking for only 90 minutes, it's not exactly an easy task to cover them all within the timeframe that they're available.

So perhaps this policy is simply a means of preventing people from blaming the sanitation department for inevitably failing to plow the parking lane on their street.

[jeffandnicole]

In some places it's called "Dibs".  Don't forget the old chair or other assorted garbage.

Well, certainly there's a whole large topic to be discussed there; there's probably already a thread on that. But my question is about NYCDOT policy specifically (or other cities that may have similar practices).

Technically it's probably not legal. But, for example, Philly's mayor has said he understands the pains one goes through to dig themselves out of a spot. If they mark the spot with a chair or something, the police are not to remove the marker.

Thank god I don't live back east or up north having to shovel feet of snow in my property. Heck, if I was a child growing up in a snowy climate I would LOVE it...adults view winter differently. If the snow plows don't come, you're gonna have to remove snow yourself...a healthy exercise to get your body warm (LoL).

Well, not all adults. Especially us adults that drive the plows, making some good money in the process. :-)

[empirestate]

Technically it's probably not legal. But, for example, Philly's mayor has said he understands the pains one goes through to dig themselves out of a spot. If they mark the spot with a chair or something, the police are not to remove the marker.

You know, I really don't see people marking out spots in this way in NYC. If anything, rather than marking a spot we've cleared with a chair, we mark it with our actual car. Twice this week I've dug out my car without actually moving it, just to I could take advantage of a thaw or prepare for the next snowfall. Now on a normal day you can't get anywhere close to your car without someone coming along and lining up to take your spot when you leave. But when you're busy shoveling it out, they don't bother you at all; they know you're doing the work to clear a spot and they know you intend to keep it.

[roadman]

In some places it's called "Dibs".  Don't forget the old chair or other assorted garbage.

Well, certainly there's a whole large topic to be discussed there; there's probably already a thread on that. But my question is about NYCDOT policy specifically (or other cities that may have similar practices).

Technically it's probably not legal. But, for example, Philly's mayor has said he understands the pains one goes through to dig themselves out of a spot. If they mark the spot with a chair or something, the police are not to remove the marker.

In Boston, it's currently legal to leave a "space saver" (as they're called here) to mark a parking space you dug out in place for 48 hours following the suspension of a snow emergency.  Personally, I feel it's an idiotic policy that has no business being sanctioned by government.

[Brandon]

In some places it's called "Dibs".  Don't forget the old chair or other assorted garbage.

Well, certainly there's a whole large topic to be discussed there; there's probably already a thread on that. But my question is about NYCDOT policy specifically (or other cities that may have similar practices).

Technically it's probably not legal. But, for example, Philly's mayor has said he understands the pains one goes through to dig themselves out of a spot. If they mark the spot with a chair or something, the police are not to remove the marker.

In Boston, it's currently legal to leave a "space saver" (as they're called here) to mark a parking space you dug out in place for 48 hours following the suspension of a snow emergency.  Personally, I feel it's an idiotic policy that has no business being sanctioned by government.

In Chicago, there is no condoned enforcement of it, but if you move the "junk" without replacement and just park there, you can expect to find the following:

Tires slashed
Car keyed
Windows broken
Mirrors broken
Headlights / taillights smashed

And good luck getting the police to go after the offenders.  They'll tell you that you shouldn't have moved the Dibs items.

We even have a "judge" for it: Judge Dibs as well as a "chief justice" for it: Chief Justice Dibs.

Chicago Dibs and how it started.  And according to the previous mayor, Richard M. Daley,

I tell people, if someone spends all that time digging their car out, do not drive in that spot. This is Chicago. Fair warning.

There's even a paper on the subject (PDF): The Allocation of the Commons: Parking and Stopping on the Commons.  Start on page 17 for "Dibs in the Snow".

[roadman]

You can expect similar behavior to occur if you remove a space saver in Boston and then claim the spot.

[1995hoo]

Returning to the New York issue, my grandparents lived in Bay Ridge and on alternate-side parking days, the accepted (but entirely illegal) practice was that everyone simply double-parked on the other side of the street during the alternate-side period. The vast majority of people would leave a card on the windshield or the dashboard telling you which doorbell to go ring if you were the guy blocked in and you needed to get out, although there was always some dickhead who wouldn't cooperate with that sort of thing. I wonder if an unstated part of the rationale for suspending alternate-side parking is that it's more important to clear the travel lane and avoid the situation of people doing a half-assed job of shoveling out just enough to allow themselves to double-park, then moving back into the plowed parking lane and leaving the travel lane that much more of a mess. Of course the city would never admit that.

[empirestate]

Returning to the New York issue, my grandparents lived in Bay Ridge and on alternate-side parking days, the accepted (but entirely illegal) practice was that everyone simply double-parked on the other side of the street during the alternate-side period. The vast majority of people would leave a card on the windshield or the dashboard telling you which doorbell to go ring if you were the guy blocked in and you needed to get out, although there was always some dickhead who wouldn't cooperate with that sort of thing. I wonder if an unstated part of the rationale for suspending alternate-side parking is that it's more important to clear the travel lane and avoid the situation of people doing a half-assed job of shoveling out just enough to allow themselves to double-park, then moving back into the plowed parking lane and leaving the travel lane that much more of a mess. Of course the city would never admit that.

I suppose that could be the rationale. Of course, that's exactly what's happening regardless, since some people do still need to come and go and are doing just such a half-assed job (because as I mentioned above, you don't do a great job shoveling if your spot is just going to go straight to someone else). But with no period where all the cars are cleared, the plow can't come along and clear the mess along the curb that is the source of the mess they're trying to avoid by leaving the cars along the curb.

Granted, whatever the real reason is may well make no sense at all, but if there is a good reason I was just hoping to ferret it out.

[Duke87]

Returning to the New York issue, my grandparents lived in Bay Ridge and on alternate-side parking days, the accepted (but entirely illegal) practice was that everyone simply double-parked on the other side of the street during the alternate-side period.

This is one of the more interesting parking practices in NYC. I've seen it mostly in northern Manhattan and the South Bronx. But there is no apparent rhyme or reason to where it is or isn't done. Best I can guess is that it happens in neighborhoods where 1) the locals have figured out that the cops from their precinct won't ticket them for it, and 2) where parking is scarce enough that you can't just move to another legal space, but not so scarce as to drive people to fight over their spaces.

My neighborhood certainly fails the latter test. You cannot find a space on my block. Most open spaces are filled in less than 60 seconds. Every morning when alternate side suspension goes into effect, half the street clears by 8:30 but by 10 AM when the suspension ends, there are no free spaces again. Comically, you will sometimes see some elderly people (who I guess have nothing better to do) go outside and sit in the drivers' seat of their car at 8:30, but then not actually move their car unless they see a parking cop or a street sweeper coming.

You don't mess with the parking rules, though. I've seen cops writing people tickets at 8:31.

[mrsman]

I think part of the issue may be transit use.  Alternate side works best for working people (normal schedule) who commute by car.  Alternate side times are usually in the middle of the weekday, but if you leave by 7 am and return by 6 pm you'd typically be able to park on both sides of the street and the street sweeping doesn't affect you at all.

Alternate side is a minor inconvenience for those who don't travel for work during the day (telecommuters, retired, unemployed, night workers, etc.).  Those people will have to babysit their car during the street sweeping hours by either sitting in the car and moving it when the sweeper comes, or by running errands during the 90 minute period and coming back to your parking space when it's over.  Or maybe hiring a neighborhood "valet" to do this for you.

However, if you are a car owner who frequently takes transit to your job, alternate side is an extreme inconvenience.  You'd like to leave your car in the neighborhood and walk to the subway.  Well, that will only work if you were lucky enough to park on the right side of the street.  If you can't do that, well, you're going to have to drive your car somewhere, like maybe a garage by the subway station or maybe driving all the way to work and not taking the subway at all.  If alternate side is suspended for snow, then that means that I don't have to do the work of clearing my car when I don't need to drive anywhere, or drive needlessly just to avoid the alternate side.  I will leave my car alone, if I can instead walk to the subway.  So alternate side suspension promotes transit use for certain car owners on snowy days.

I lived in Queens for a year while getting my master's degree.  The neighborhood was moderately difficult to park in, but not extremely difficult.  You could usually find a spot, but not necessarily on the right side of the street.  It was a two-fare zone (too far to walk to subway, but only one block from a bus to the subway).  Since I was a student, my hours at school were shorter than most people's workdays.  Near my apartment the street sweeping zones were Thurs and Fri 10 am - 11:30.  Even if I didn't get a parking spot on the good side of the street the night before, I was pretty lucky that enough people would leave by 8 am that I could move my car before walking to the bus to get to my classes.  If I had a 9-5 job in Manhattan, I'd be out of luck and I would probably have to park several blocks away to find a spot on the right side of the street.

So in my view, prevent people from driving on icy roads and promote transit by suspending alternate side on the first day after a snow storm.

[Duke87]

However, if you are a car owner who frequently takes transit to your job, alternate side is an extreme inconvenience. 

This. I take the subway to work. My car is normally only ever used on weekends. My car is typically parked a 15-20 minute walk from my apartment... on the nearest street that has no alternate side restrictions. Were it not for that it would be effectively impossible for me to both live in this neighborhood and own a car (of course, I would much sooner give up the former than the latter).

[empirestate]

Alternate side is a minor inconvenience for those who don't travel for work during the day (telecommuters, retired, unemployed, night workers, etc.).  Those people will have to babysit their car during the street sweeping hours by either sitting in the car and moving it when the sweeper comes, or by running errands during the 90 minute period and coming back to your parking space when it's over.  Or maybe hiring a neighborhood "valet" to do this for you.

I am constantly surprised by the amount of spare time some people seem to have to babysit their cars during street cleaning.

So alternate side suspension promotes transit use for certain car owners on snowy days.

That's a perfectly good reasoning. However, it's not at all the reason that's being given.

So in my view, prevent people from driving on icy roads and promote transit by suspending alternate side on the first day after a snow storm.

Also sound reasoning. But as of now, the rules have been suspended for about three continuous weeks, and only three of those days have been the first one after a snow storm. The remainder have been mostly fair weather.

Of course, by this point all the snow is frozen much too solid to easily remove, and even if all the cars did move, it's doubtful they could get much clearing done. But again, the reason being given is "to facilitate snow removal", not "because snow removal is impossible".

Oh, and I do fully realize that the reason being given and the actual reason may simply just not be the same thing, because in many aspects of NYC transportation, official scripts take precedence over actual information. But I have never been one to be satisfied with an illogical explanation, even if I know it's the truth. So I will keep wondering. :-)

[empirestate]

I found this by way of an official explanation, for what it's worth:
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1619156#bmb=1


iPhone

[SidS1045]

I found this by way of an official explanation, for what it's worth:
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1619156#bmb=1

Where on the page is it?  I can't find it.

IIRC, the explanation is actually pretty simple:  The same Sanitation Department trucks that sweep the streets also plow the snow and cannot be outfitted for both tasks at the same time.  Don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what I was told when I lived there.

[Duke87]

I found this by way of an official explanation, for what it's worth:
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1619156#bmb=1

Where on the page is it?  I can't find it.

IIRC, the explanation is actually pretty simple:  The same Sanitation Department trucks that sweep the streets also plow the snow and cannot be outfitted for both tasks at the same time.  Don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what I was told when I lived there.

You're getting redirected to the homepage because the link is to the mobile site and you're not on a mobile device. Remove the "m." from the link and it works. Like so:

http://nydailynews.com/1.1619156#bmb=1

[vdeane]

I found this by way of an official explanation, for what it's worth:
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1619156#bmb=1

Where on the page is it?  I can't find it.

IIRC, the explanation is actually pretty simple:  The same Sanitation Department trucks that sweep the streets also plow the snow and cannot be outfitted for both tasks at the same time.  Don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what I was told when I lived there.

You're getting redirected to the homepage because the link is to the mobile site and you're not on a mobile device. Remove the "m." from the link and it works. Like so:

http://nydailynews.com/1.1619156#bmb=1

[empirestate]

IIRC, the explanation is actually pretty simple:  The same Sanitation Department trucks that sweep the streets also plow the snow and cannot be outfitted for both tasks at the same time.  Don't know whether that's true or not, but that's what I was told when I lived there.

That had occurred to me too. Of course, the obvious question then is why they wouldn't just run the sweepers on their usual routes, but instead of removing litter, remove snow?

Actually, though, I can't recall ever seeing a street sweeper outfitted with a plow. More likely, I think it's the personnel that are reassigned, not the equipment.

In happier news, today was street cleaning day on my block, and they did come with a backhoe and dump truck and did a snow blitz. Of course, they missed the spot where one car was parked...the one belonging to the old man about whom the only thing I've learned, in the three years I've lived here, is that he hates people who park incorrectly.

[Duke87]

I don't know that the street sweepers are bulky enough to effectively handle snow removal. Seems like the garbage trucks would be significantly heavier.