What is "The South?"

[hobsini2]

So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".

It's not "your region".  It's ours too.

As a Minnesotan, I feel I have much more in common with the Dakotas and Iowa than I do with Indiana. Sorry SSR_317.

Can't the both Great Lakes and Great Plains be part of the Midwest?

Yes. They are in my world. But what do I know...except for being a geography major before I was a meteorology major in college. To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes.

Now this is just my opinion. But here's how I classify the regions.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing

[Scott5114]

Now this is just my opinion. But here's how I classify the regions.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=12T77XbWyKTZN34_3HvUtaVs0UxyxoFE&usp=sharing

lol @ Lawton, OK being the "Deep South"

(And Altus not. Lawton and Altus are basically copy pastes of each other–southwestern Oklahoma towns with military installations. Unless you think the Army is somehow more Southern than the Air Force.)

[US 89]

Atlanta is not Appalachian by any stretch of the imagination. North Georgia yes, and maybe some of the far northern exurbs, but the metro is growing way too fast and oriented towards newer development to feel at all close to Appalachia.

Also, Tampa and Orlando are most certainly not South. They are their own breed.

[OldDominion75]

Here's my take for my home state of VA and neighboring Maryland and Delaware. I'm just breaking down the eastern halves as I'm not as familiar with the mountains.

I'd say the true North-South divide is somewhere near the latitude of Baltimore. Obviously, the major metro areas of Baltimore and DC have been transformed by transplants. Though there are pockets of Southernness within those metros (Glen Burnie and PG County for example). Richmond and Norfolk are Southern at the core, but as a whole the traditional culture has been diluted in those metros.

Southeastern Virginia, roughly east of I-95 and south of US 460, is the part of VA that is undeniably southern. This is where there's peanut and cotton farms. The accent is relatively thick compared to other parts of the state. Even the  disproportionately high black population resembles the Deep South.

The Delmarva Peninsula and the part of Virginia east of I-95/north of I-64 (the Chesapeake Bay region) seems to have this unique, quaint vibe where Old Bay inspired cuisine and the older Tidewater dialect remains strong.

The culture and economy of the eastern Piedmont resembles the Chesapeake Bay region. Lots of tobacco farms, a slight Tidewater accent, and a largely bi-racial demographic.

[hobsini2]

i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.

This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.

[thspfc]

(I think I've posted this elsewhere) I like to separate the country into four regions and eight subregions. The South to me is Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. Of which the former six are the "near south"  and the latter six are the "deep south" . Yes, it's weird to put Cincinnati and Covington in different regions, but you've gotta draw the line somewhere, and the border of two states along the Ohio River is as definitive as you're going to get.

[Scott5114]

Yes, it's weird to put Cincinnati and Covington in different regions, but you've gotta draw the line somewhere, and the border of two states along the Ohio River is as definitive as you're going to get.

Obviously the solution is to have a region called "Great Lakes and Ohio Valley"

[CtrlAltDel]

i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.

This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.

Something perhaps along the lines of the Köppen classification?:

[hobsini2]

i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.

This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.

Something perhaps along the lines of the Köppen classification?:

Yes. Something more like this.

[Scott5114]

So Oklahoma and Boston are part of the same region? Okay...

[hobsini2]

So Oklahoma and Boston are part of the same region? Okay...

You're reading too much into it Scott. I got the point of CtrAltDel's map. It is not about the vegetation which is on this map. It's the fact that you can have stuff overlap and go across political boundaries. That's why I said something more like this to convey my original point.

[SSR_317]

Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".

Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.

This is where we need to remember geography and culture don't neatly overlap. Your argument can be distilled down to "these places are Midwestern but are in no way, shape, or form any part of the Midwest". How does that make sense?

Please re-read my comment, as you're misquoting me by "distilling" my "argument".

That said, to each their own! I expressed my OPINION (and as usual, I did so FORCEFULLY), but everyone is free to to agree or disagree with it at will, As I stated in my original post.

[bing101]

i see some of you have missed the part where I said "To me, the Midwest is not so much about where an arbitrary political boundary is but rather where the geography and geology of the land changes." Not talking about the culture at all. That is a can of worms I will not open.

This applies to all of the regions. Not just the Midwest. And by no means is my opinion a "hard line". Hell, we have a lot of oil rigs in Southern Illinois.

Something perhaps along the lines of the Köppen classification?:

Yes. Something more like this.

Csa and Csb on the map for Mediterranean climate. Yes this is pretty true in my area. Solano County gets a mix of both CSA and CSB on the map given that we get a mix of heat from the Sacramento Valley and Coastal breeze from the Bay Area at the same time.

[bing101]

If you see more Waffle Houses than Ihop's, you're in The South.



Eh maybe not; Ohio screws it up.

Yes I always thought Waffle House was a parody name for IHOP or Denny's. Yes IHOP is the California's version of Waffle House until I seen news clips from other parts of the USA and Wikipedia page showing it's a real place in Georgia.

[J N Winkler]

So Oklahoma and Boston are part of the same region? Okay...

That is more a function of the Dfa/Dfb bloc within the continental US having Cfa coastal frontage along much of its eastern boundary.  And a Köppen climate zone map can look different according to the specific zone definitions that are applied (there is some leeway in terms of minimum temperature, for example).  I have seen (and cited) others that don't attribute Cwa patches to Kansas and Nebraska and that position the BSk/Cfa/Dfa tripoint closer to the center of Kansas than the one CtrlAltDel posted.

The University of Vienna has Köppen climate maps for the USA as well as a database giving the percentages of each US county in the climate zones that it overlaps.  As an example, Ford County, Kansas (for which Dodge City is the seat) is more or less evenly split between Cfa and BSk.

[bing101]

Is the 36th parallel a benchmark for "The South"
But once it enters California then that's going to split the state in two given how it was gerrymandered.

[skluth]

Is the 36th parallel a benchmark for "The South"
But once it enters California then that's going to split the state in two given how it was gerrymandered.

I don't think The South exists west of about the 100th meridian

[StogieGuy7]

Furthermore, no state that was NOT part of the original Northwest Territory of the USA (Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and parts of Minnesota) can be considered to be in "The Midwest" or Midwestern. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are the diving lines there (except in northern Minnesota). So sorry Iowa, Missouri, and Kentucky (and Great Plains states like the rest of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Kansas, and Nebraska) but you're not part of our region. All or parts of those states may have quite strong "Midwestern influences", but they are NOT a part of "The Midwest".

Feel free to disagree, if you feel you must do so.

I know this is bumps an old comment, but say what now? In who's world does Iowa have less in common with Illinois and Wisconsin than Ohio? Ohio is practically the east.  Meanwhile, SW WI and NW IL are very similar to eastern IA. The southern third of MN is just like Iowa, yet the eastern part of MN is geographically more like WI than anywhere else. If anything, there's an "eastern Midwest" and a "western Midwest" - the former being OH, IN, Lower MI; the latter being IL, WI, MN, IA, MO and the UP of MI (which should be part of WI). Of course, few people would make that distinction, so all of the above are in the MIDWEST.

Ask anyone who lives here and they'll feel quite free to disagree with you.

ND, SD, NE, KS and OK are right in the middle of the Great Plains and their membership is shakier. Though I'll add that the scenery in eastern KS, NE and SD is quite similar to the tallgrass prairies you see in IA, MO, IL and S WI.  Culturally, Topeka has more in common with the likes of Des Moines, Madison or Springfield (either one) than it does with Denver. Same for Omaha or Lincoln. So it's easy to include these states in the Midwest - but I do admit that Scottsbluff, North Platte, Garden City and Rapid City are a lot more like Denver or Amarillo than the greener country to the east.

[MultiMillionMiler]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

[StogieGuy7]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.

[elsmere241]

I looked this up once and it said Delaware was the south

South of the Mason-Dixon line, but not the South. Just as Baltimore is not the South. These were always border states; nowadays, DE has far more in common with E PA and NJ than with anyone else.

Don't tell that to folks who live in Kent and Sussex counties (central and southern Delaware).  The consensus among Delmarva is that it is part of the south, and that Delmarva includes the entire Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia, but not New Castle County, Delaware because it's "too diverse".

[kphoger]

ND, SD, NE, KS and OK are right in the middle of the Great Plains and their membership is shakier. Though I'll add that the scenery in eastern KS, NE and SD is quite similar to the tallgrass prairies you see in IA, MO, IL and S WI.  Culturally, Topeka has more in common with the likes of Des Moines, Madison or Springfield (either one) than it does with Denver. Same for Omaha or Lincoln. So it's easy to include these states in the Midwest - but I do admit that Scottsbluff, North Platte, Garden City and Rapid City are a lot more like Denver or Amarillo than the greener country to the east.

I've lived in Kansas most of my life–both western and eastern Kansas–and everyone here thinks of the state as being part of the Midwest.  As for the Garden City area:  this discussion prompted me earlier to ask my good friends, who grew up in Meade and Fowler, if that part of the state is in the Midwest or not, and they answered in the affirmative.

And, for what it's worth, Amarillo is part of the Midwest to me.  Its longitude is only about 40 miles west of the Kansas town I grew up in and, as I said, nobody where I grew up thinks of their region as anything but the Midwest.  To me, the TX/NM state line is a rough approximation of the western edge of the Midwest, similar to the KS/CO state line.  There are a handful of spots in far eastern NM and far eastern CO that could be part of the Midwest, but just pieces of a small sliver.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I have never come across a Plains state resident saying "I'm not a Midwesterner, I'm a Plainsian" or whatever.

[hbelkins]

Once you get south of Dover, the entire Delmarva Peninsula has a southern feel to me. It's like a little enclave of the South, because I don't get a southern vibe from the Hampton Roads area at all.

[ethanhopkin14]

Common thought is the Sabine River is the dividing line between the American South and the American Southwest.  It is more gradual than that, and I seem to think San Antonio is the dividing line between the two.