Toll Booths

[realjd]

I think the day of choice is gone

I disagree. There are still choices, they're just different choices. For the SunPass toll-by-plate lanes in Miami, the choices are to buy a SunPass and get a discount, register a toll-by-plate online and pay the stated toll, or to just drive through the toll booth and get a bill in the mail plus an administrative fee. They got rid of the cash option but added the two camera toll options.

For your music analogy, our choices now are CD or digital. We still have a choice there as well.

[agentsteel53]

John Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Yanni says I should pay solely with travelers checks denominated in goat.

seriously, a hard adherence to cash is for two sorts of people: 1) those too dumb or irresponsible to understand credit, and 2) tax evaders.  checks are for... well, really no one, anymore.

[1995hoo]

Part of the problem with toll booths is, as others have noted, when there is a toll plaza with no ORT lanes, you face potential hazards with people who go to the wrong lane or fail to read the signs or who don't understand how it works. The problem is compounded when the toll booths retain the gate arms traditionally used in the toll machine lanes, and then there is the issue of toll plazas with no ETC-only lanes such that cash users and ETC users go through the same lane. It can be really friggin' scary when you stop to throw in 75¢ worth of quarters and you glance in your mirror and see a Ford Excursion bearing down on you at 55 mph with no apparent intention of slowing down (this happened to me once on the Dulles Toll Road in the days before I had a Smart Tag transponder). Of course, it's also scary when you're bearing down on the ETC-only lane and you realize the car in front of you has stopped and the driver is trying to figure out where to pay cash.

A lot of this comes from the issue of toll agencies trying to do it on the cheap by simply using the existing toll plaza with as few modifications as possible, or in some cases from toll agencies trying to retain maximum flexibility in toll lane usage (the Dulles Greenway, for example, has no room to expand the main plaza near Dulles Airport because the airport won't let them, so they don't want to remove any of the booths lest they need them in the future).

In addition to the idea of a universal transponder that would work on all North American toll roads, I'd like to see greater standardization for marking ETC-only lanes at toll plazas where construction of an ORT facility is impractical or undesirable, especially if the plaza accepts the ETC system at all toll lanes. I like the system used in the Northeast where the flashing yellow light designates an "E-ZPass Only" lane. If you know to look for it, it makes it very easy to find that lane at a glance (of course, that raises the problem of drivers from elsewhere not knowing to look for it). I find that Virginia's system of using a bunch of tiny little signs does not lend itself to quick decisions as to which lanes are "E-ZPass Only," which are toll machines, and which are full-service–see images below. (The plastic bollards seen here were not in place as of February 8, my most recent trip through that toll plaza, nor were they there in December because I have dashcam video of someone swerving at the last instant.) The lighted signs say "COINS ONLY" or "FULL SERVICE," BTW.

I know the current MUTCD has some sections about using the ETC system's "pictogram" and the like, but what I'm getting at is the issue that where every lane accepts the ETC system, you sometimes have the problem of the toll agency wanting to put the pictogram over each lane such that it adds to visual clutter in what is already an area that inherently has a fair amount of signs and a lot going on in a small area.


(In these two pictures, the speed limit in the two left lanes is 35 mph. It's not unusual to see people go through at 60+.)





I think ultimately I come down to the idea that new toll roads should not have toll booths. For older roads, I'm more torn. As long as there is no universal interoperability with North American transponders, I think the idea of maintaining the cash payment option is very important if toll agencies are going to persist in keeping the gate arms in place (as a number of the E-ZPass consortium members do). But certainly the number of cash lanes can be minimized if the toll road gets the bulk of its business from local traffic such that the vast majority of transactions are via ETC methods (the Dulles Greenway and Toll Road would be examples of that, whereas a road like the New Jersey Turnpike might be a prime example of a road that carries a heck of a lot of non-local traffic).

....

For your music analogy, our choices now are CD or digital. We still have a choice there as well.

I bought several new LPs this winter. Interestingly, they included a card with a code for downloading a copy (unfortunately in low-rez .MP3 rather than .FLAC).

CDs are digital, BTW!

[roadman65]

John Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Yanni says I should pay solely with travelers checks denominated in goat.

seriously, a hard adherence to cash is for two sorts of people: 1) those too dumb or irresponsible to understand credit, and 2) tax evaders.  checks are for... well, really no one, anymore.

I think you are missing the point.  It is not about responsibility as the way your brain works. 

I am a sales person, in this business it makes a difference what words you use or not.  One word can make the difference between sale or fail.

Our minds are so complex that even the simple mind cannot figure it out, but doctors have done studies on how we react to certain things or words even though it may seem like it is not that.  Even the color blue can cause effect on human minds and create serenity while the color red creates excitement hence the red light or stop signs.  We do not control the reaction of those colors its the way our brain's are wired up.

[jakeroot]

If I ever see a new freeway designed with tollbooths, I will actively pursue an agenda to see them replaced with electronic-only. Tollbooths are...

A) more expensive;
B) slower;
B-1) more likely to induce heavy traffic;
C) far wider than the freeway, and therefore take more land; &
D) just really old fashioned?

With that said, there are a couple of advantages...

A) easier to manage (WSDOT is always sending bills to the wrong people, hard to fuck up a system that forgoes licence plate scanning);
B) simpler for those who don't like complicated things (losing the bill, etc);
C) easier to keep hidden from your mate ("why did you cross the 520 last night, Jamie?");
C-1) under-the-table transactions for the win?

Still, I hate tollbooths.

[Pete from Boston]

Operators were once required to complete phone calls.  Toll booths are our modern equivalent –expensive, slow, and obsolete.  Say goodbye.

[realjd]

I bought several new LPs this winter. Interestingly, they included a card with a code for downloading a copy (unfortunately in low-rez .MP3 rather than .FLAC).

CDs are digital, BTW!

They still sell LPs? How quaint. Is the target market hipsters or DJs?

And yes, I'm a computer engineer, I understand that CDs are digital. You know what I meant

[1995hoo]

I bought several new LPs this winter. Interestingly, they included a card with a code for downloading a copy (unfortunately in low-rez .MP3 rather than .FLAC).

CDs are digital, BTW!

They still sell LPs? How quaint. Is the target market hipsters or DJs?

....

Audiophiles, mostly.

[vdeane]

John Tesh had results of a study done on why its still important to pay with cash over credit and his findings seem to make sense.

Yanni says I should pay solely with travelers checks denominated in goat.

seriously, a hard adherence to cash is for two sorts of people: 1) those too dumb or irresponsible to understand credit, and 2) tax evaders.  checks are for... well, really no one, anymore.

I think you are missing the point.  It is not about responsibility as the way your brain works. 

I am a sales person, in this business it makes a difference what words you use or not.  One word can make the difference between sale or fail.

Our minds are so complex that even the simple mind cannot figure it out, but doctors have done studies on how we react to certain things or words even though it may seem like it is not that.  Even the color blue can cause effect on human minds and create serenity while the color red creates excitement hence the red light or stop signs.  We do not control the reaction of those colors its the way our brain's are wired up.

I find my brain handles electronic better than cash.  Probably because electronic transactions are validated by my checking account balance whereas cash is validated by nothing since I use it so rarely and cash in my wallet is considered money already spent (my budget is based on my checking account and nothing else; assets not in my checking account are essentially considered as not existing; this all developed due to a quirk of how my finances worked in college and I have had reason to fix it).

[agentsteel53]

I think you are missing the point.  It is not about responsibility as the way your brain works. 

I am a sales person, in this business it makes a difference what words you use or not.  One word can make the difference between sale or fail.

Our minds are so complex that even the simple mind cannot figure it out, but doctors have done studies on how we react to certain things or words even though it may seem like it is not that.  Even the color blue can cause effect on human minds and create serenity while the color red creates excitement hence the red light or stop signs.  We do not control the reaction of those colors its the way our brain's are wired up.

well, you're trying to sell me your argument here and you're utterly failing.

are you seriously blaming your own inability to handle credit on the same principle that fast food restaurants are painted red because they're more likely to get the Pavlov-dog crowd salivating?  i.e. you're admitting that you're a slave to advertising.  have some personal responsibility.  yep, there I go again with that word. 

[US81]

I'm not against the technology per se. I am against incurring the hidden fees that I am powerless to stop when I use certain toll roads. The fees make the total 3-5 times higher than the stated toll. Stop the gouging - the sanctioned theft - and I'll willingly come into the 21st century.

[jeffandnicole]

...But certainly the number of cash lanes can be minimized if the toll road gets the bulk of its business from local traffic such that the vast majority of transactions are via ETC methods (the Dulles Greenway and Toll Road would be examples of that, whereas a road like the New Jersey Turnpike might be a prime example of a road that carries a heck of a lot of non-local traffic).

Just an FYI...in January, 2014, EZ Pass Usage on the NJ Turnpike was 82.3%.  On the GSP, it was 78.5%. 

Total Revenue on the 2 toll roads was $117 million for the month of January.  So even though EZ Pass usage is around 80%, that still means about $23 million was collected in cash. 

Some of those cash users are people that use the toll roads daily, but don't want EZ Pass.  Could be numerous reasons, from not having a bank account or credit card to wearing tin-foil hats.  If the toll roads did go all-electronic, some of them would finally get a tag. 

FWIW, usage in the summer doesn't go down.  Sure, many of the regular commuters take vacations, but many of those taking vacations have EZ Pass as well.

(Info found under monthly financial summaries here: http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/investor-relations.html)

[mrsman]

In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

[NE2]

Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Florida's started to switch to ETC/pay-by-mail (major Tampa and Miami toll roads were recently converted).

[Pete from Boston]

In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

I think we've seen the likely beginning and end of the brief "exit to pay at booth" era.  New Jersey went nuts in the last decade making through lanes open-road-tolling-only, with toll plazas cut back to side lanes.  I'm not sure what their long-range plan is, but even though it annoys me that Massachusetts has dragged its feet on ORT,* at least there's not an expensive in-between step in the conversion process.

In any case, there's often a perception that since we're used to something, it's not only reasonable, but we're are entitled to it.  Neither is the case any longer for cash toll payment, IMHO.  Furthermore, since the rest of us are costing the tolling agency less when we pay, why shouldn't cash users pay extra?  (This is already the case in many places, of course -- whether it is assessed as a full-fare toll for cash users or extra processing fees for them is purely academic.)


* Amusingly enough, when Bernard Cohen was Massachusetts transportation secretary in 2008, a WBZ radio reporter asked him about putting ORT in place in Massachusetts.  He hemmed and hawed about the geometry being wrong here, etc. -- typical "it just wouldn't work here because we're different and special in a way no one else understands" attitude of parochial Mass. officials -- then finally bailed out with the pathetic, "Besides, why would we want to do something they do in New Jersey?"  He was pushed out of his job about two months later.

[1995hoo]

I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

[NE2]

I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

[jeffandnicole]

In my view, until there is a nationwide standard transponder that is also not subject to a monthly fee, cash should always be a "reasonable" option.

For a toll road, all through lanes should be for transponders.  Those paying by some other means should exit to a toll booth, similar to the way it is done in Florida.

Now, by "reasonable", I'm not saying that every crossing needs to have a manned toll booth.  For example, if NYC ever tolls the East River crossings, those crossings should be toll-booth free and drivers who want to pay cash should be directed to the Battery and Midtown Tunnels.  Similarly with toll roads, there could be more and more EZ-Pass only exits, so long as mainline tollbooths and major exits provide a cash option.

...I'm not sure what their long-range plan is, but even though it annoys me that Massachusetts has dragged its feet on ORT,* at least there's not an expensive in-between step in the conversion process.

Since you bring that up, the state I'm most disappointed in for ORT is Maryland.   I always thought they did a good job on their highways in general, but that whole EZ Pass thing confuses the hell out of them.  It almost appears they are completely dumbfounded that people are using the system.

The JFK Toll Plaza just north of the Susquehanna could have and should have easily been converted to ORT years ago.  The wide, lengthy toll plaza could have had 2 or 3 ORT lanes to the left.  Of the 3 mainline lanes approaching the toll plaza, none are dedicated for EZ Pass only.  Instead, there is a left exit type lane, and the lane directs motorists to the left booth only.  The 2 lanes next to this left-most booth are also always EZ Pass only, but you have to know to stay out of that far left lane.  Instead, it seems easiest to stay in the center lane approaching the toll plaza, and then drift left to get to those exclusive EZ Pass lanes near the left.  https://goo.gl/maps/sejxU  Yes, there is an interchange just north of here, but it's far enough away traffic can merge over without much issue.

At the tunnel, they went partially there...they created one ORT lane each direction, with a 30 mph speed limit.  I can't imagine what it's like at rush hour, but I've been thru it at other times, and it still backs up.  IMO...they should've converted the left two lanes going south to ORT, and those two lanes immediately go into the tunnel.  Anyone using the standard lanes are directed into the other tube.  Use cones - lots of cones - to keep traffic headed to their respective tubes, since the tubes are shut down on occasion.  (Likewise, going Northbound, the left tube should be for EZ Pass only, and those lanes would go thru 2 ORT lanes as well).  And yes, I know about the exit just south of the tunnel...those people would just have to use the traditional lanes.  I've seen the entire Northbound left tube backed up simply because of that EZ Pass lane after the tunnel.  Anymore, I keep to the right, and hit one of the EZ Pass lanes on the right.

[Brandon]

I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

That's what Illinois does.  Cash payers pay twice the I-Pass amount.  All the I-Pass users need to have (unless they get it at a Jewel-Osco) is a $10 deposit + $40 in pre-paid tolls.  No monthly or annual fee.  If you get it at a Jewel-Osco, then a $2.90 fee applies, but that goes to the grocer.

[Pete from Boston]

I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

Mass. dropped its fee years ago.  NYSTA has long been free or close to it.  Now, it's possible that, as happened with cell phones, a lot if the deals will get worse once they achieve more or less saturation.  But right now I feel like ETC is a relative bargain in these parts.

[vdeane]

The only non-free part of NYSTA is a $10 tag deposit if you replenish by cash/check.  This deposit is refunded if you ever switch to credit card though.

[iwishiwascanadian]

The Maryland Senate just passed a bill that would force the MdTA to keep at least one cash lane at each toll booth in the state.  It was sponsored by a State Senator who has the Tydings Bridge in her district.  The MdTA was going to use the bridge as a pilot for an AET program.

[realjd]

I've long thought that instead of having a fee for an ETC device, they should simply raise the toll for the cash-payers.

They do, but they also charge for the device because they're huge dicks.
Orlando did just fine for many years with not charging.

SunPass stickers though are practically free. They cost $5 but come with a $5 toll credit.

At least we don't have a monthly "service" fee like most states.

[bugo]

When I was borrowing a family member's car a few months ago, I forgot that I didn't have Pikepass and blew through the Pikepass lane.  The next day I called them and told them what happened and they charged my account.  I soon got a Pikepass for that car so I didn't have to worry about it again.

As for electronic collection vs toll booths: I prefer both.  I like a pass type system for regular customers and cash booths for drivers just driving through.  The Texas style all electronic system is very flawed, and is not acceptable given the other options available.

[jeffandnicole]

The Maryland Senate just passed a bill that would force the MdTA to keep at least one cash lane at each toll booth in the state.  It was sponsored by a State Senator who has the Tydings Bridge in her district.  The MdTA was going to use the bridge as a pilot for an AET program.

Good in theory, but bad in reality.  As long as you have the cash option, people are going to use it.  You're not going to convince 99% of the drivers to convert to EZ Pass while 1% pay with cash.