Toll Booths

[bugo]

Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

GOP "leadership" at its finest.

[US81]

To continue with an opposing viewpoint, people have complained for years for being shortchanged by a toll collector. 

With any method of payment (electronic, in-person, credit card, goat cheese), the majority will never experience a problem.  A few will.  There isn't anything out there that is problem-free.

I don't disagree. But if I'm at a toll booth and get shortchanged, my loss is limited to the amount of cash that changed hands. And, as you said above, a phone call or two should have been sufficient to correct each problem, but instead penalties were added after each call. 

As I said upthread, I'm not against electronic tolling per se  - nor have I 'written off the entire electronic tolling industry.' I do expect the first bill to be what the TxTag website states: $1.80, not $9.95. http://www.txtag.org/faqs_bills.php

I am against the abusive practices. I think there should be some small protections for the consumer: maybe there should be a requirement to send a certified letter before submitting to a collection agency, and another before submitting to the court.  Maybe there should be some limitation on the exponential growth of the fines and fees. 

Wxfree made a good post above that I can't add much to, so I'll just +1 and say "Well-said, wxfree."

[Brandon]

^^
I don't know how Texas runs things, but the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) gives you 7 days to pay online.  All you need to do is enter your plate and toll plaza you went through.  If paid within 7 days, it's just the cash rate, no fines or penalties.

[hbelkins]

Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

Gratuitous political comment deleted.

Yeah, like the governor personally designed the toll roads and the access points. Besides, I can think of at least one Democrat who was governor of Texas during the construction of the toll roads, that being Ma Richards. There are probably others but I'm not going to look them up.

[Pete from Boston]

Phone calls are made, and the problem is corrected.

Where did he say the problem was corrected?

He never said he made a phone call either.  But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.  He simply wrote off the entire electronic toll industry because of one error.

But if he did, no doubt the problem could have been corrected.

I have my doubts it would have been, and suspect you work as an electronic toll industry shill.

For the sake of clarity, another phone call was made. Not only was the error not corrected, I was threatened with being turned over to the court for non-payment which would have added $350 (plus who knows what other administrative fees and surcharges they "forgot" to mention) to the bill. It was not the first such occurrence, it was the most recent of three. And the last.

Another point: the access roads along the Austin area toll roads are intermittent. In several places along the one-way access roads, hidden by terrain, the access road ends forcing drivers onto the toll road. Many people have been caught in these 'traps' but I know of signage on only one to date.

Any more questions?

Gratuitous political comment deleted.

Yeah, like the governor personally designed the toll roads and the access points.

For the record, I think they're all crooks, but this immediately reminds me of Chris Christie deflecting in December by sarcastically saying something to the effect of, "Yeah, I went out there and moved the cones myself."   

All roads are riddled with political backstory, and this fact doesn't discriminate along party lines.

[Dr Frankenstein]

To point out the obvious, the difference between toll roads and restaurants is that restaurants don't add hundreds of dollars of extra fees and threaten to take you to court.  Also, a restaurant doesn't have the backing of the state and benefit from the presumption that their claims in court are correct.  I fully understand avoiding pay by mail facilities.  In fact, if anyone were to ask me, I'd recommend it.  If you're driving on the toll roads, get a tag.  If you think your use is too infrequent to warrant a tag, just give up that infrequent use.  Your one-time use of the road probably isn't worth the higher tolls and billing fees and potential hassle and extra expense when they send you the bill and it gets "lost in the mail."

Disagree. If I'm on a 800-mile road trip headed for vacation and want to make it to my destination by the end of the day, I want to save every minute I can. My friends and I have paid a lot in tolls because of that, and want to still be able to do that. That's one of my main arguments for keeping at least a few booths.

As I said earlier, getting a tag would be a huge pain in the ass for us, as we have no address in the U.S.

[Pete from Boston]

I'm surprised no one has raised the comparison to payphones in this discussion. 10 years ago or so, payphones were still  common, and many people rejected the pressure to purchase a cell phone. Now, most people have cell phones, there is not much debate as to whether they are an appropriate standard, and payphones have all but vanished.

So there is a dwindling and probably doomed cash option for making a phone call.

Where I have noticed it — and I don't pay them a lot of attention — payphone prices seem to be significantly higher than they once were. They have outpaced inflation for sure.  Meanwhile, if you remove all the superfluous services like data and text messaging from the equation, the cost of simple telephoning seems to be overall cheaper than it was a generation ago.  (I wonder how many people under 30 have been yelled at for being too slow to the phone when it was a long-distance call.)

In the case of telephones, are we worse off without the cash means to use a critical public network?  (I do realize telephone networks are nominally private, but they are regulated in such a way as to maintain public access to them to a sufficient extent, I think, to make that difference immaterial.)  If not, why would it be different for roads?

[bugo]

I remember when I moved to Savannah in July 1996 that pay phones in Mena were 10 cents.  When I moved back in December of that same year, the pay phones were 25 cents. 

[J N Winkler]

In the case of telephones, are we worse off without the cash means to use a critical public network?  (I do realize telephone networks are nominally private, but they are regulated in such a way as to maintain public access to them to a sufficient extent, I think, to make that difference immaterial.)  If not, why would it be different for roads?

It is true that both roads and telephones serve a common-carrier function.  What I think this analogy overlooks, however, is the extent of regulation.  I am less sure of the position for cellular telephony (I suspect regulation hasn't quite caught up, as is demonstrated by roaming fees), but the copper-wire public switched telephone network has been regulated for close to a century and the companies that operate it have undergone major structural changes as a result of antitrust judgments.

In contradistinction, toll roads--particularly newer for-profit toll roads--have very little regulation.  Older public-authority toll roads are generally operated by gubernatorially appointed boards which are subject to supervision by state legislatures, so although there is no mechanism for review and approval of rates by independent bodies charged with the safeguarding of the public interest, there is still some oversight that encourages disciplined and fair behavior with regard to toll collection.  Newer toll roads tend to have their rate-setting parameters fixed by contract with little provision for independent oversight, and that opens the door to abuses such as excessive surcharges for pay-by-mail, failure to provide unfamiliar motorists with adequate opportunity to escape toll liability, fraudulent late payment fees, etc.  It is no coincidence that the most serious consumer complaints in this thread have been generated by newer toll roads that don't adhere to the established public-authority model.  Public-authority toll roads are perfectly capable of nickeling-and-diming their customers to death with transponder fees and the like, but they generally do so in a transparent way.

It strikes me that if we are going to go any further down the rabbit hole of using toll roads for new capital construction, we need a toll payers' bill of rights that keeps toll operators' feet to the fire on consumer-service issues.  I'd suggest, at minimum, the following:

*  No surcharges for pay-by-mail, payment over the Internet, or any other payment method that involves billing the customer or collecting money volunteered by the customer.

*  No transponder fees.

*  No late payment fees or fines for nonpayment unless a reasonable opportunity for voluntary payment has elapsed and the toll operator has sent the driver a bill by registered mail, return receipt requested, and the receipt that shows the driver's signature can be presented in court; compulsory waiver of any assessed late payment fees or fines when the driver can prove a good-faith effort to pay.

*  No requirement to live in a particular locale to have a transponder; however, any toll operator can require a deposit from an account holder living outside its designated primary service area.

*  Independent review by a public utility commission of all rates, fees, deposit requirements, etc. involving financial transactions between the consumer and the toll operator, the PUC being required to hold at least one public hearing before approving rate changes.

*  No fees or differential rates for using foreign transponders on interoperable systems.

*  Cash rates no greater than electronic rates unless show-up-and-go transponders are available to the public on the facility itself and the availability is clearly indicated on signs.  If these conditions are met, cash and pay-by-mail rates capped at 150% of electronic rates on a mileage basis, and Internet payment rates capped at 100% of electronic rates.

[vdeane]

Cell phones are a lot more interoperable than transponders though.  A GSM cell phone is usable all over the world (and a CDMA phone all over North America), albeit with expensive international roaming.  Transponders are not.  At present, NO transponder can be used across state lines outside of the E-ZPass zone.  It is impossible (the exception proving the rule is SunPass/QuckPass interoperability, but it's debatable because North Carolina is in the E-ZPass zone).  A Texas transponder is a paperweight outside of Texas.  Ditto for California.  Some places even have multiple transponders within a state/province (Indiana and Quebec come to mind with examples that are so egregious that I would call them criminal; Ontario gets an honorable mention since E-ZPass will be on all the major NY crossings at the end of the year, and with the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority joining, it will be possible to make an E-ZPass transaction without leaving Canada, but there are also currency considerations here; perhaps 407 will join if the IAG decides to allow transactions in Canadian dollars).

[Pete from Boston]

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given? 

All details of an immature technology.  Transponders are going to make as much sense as landlines (and toll booths) by the time this is all sorted out.

[J N Winkler]

All details of an immature technology.  Transponders are going to make as much sense as landlines (and toll booths) by the time this is all sorted out.

The problem is that noplace currently has technology at that level of maturity, and when it is finally developed, it will be in just one place, and will have to diffuse to others over the next 10-15 years, following a logistic curve (cf. Griliches and hybrid corn).  The abuses are now.

[hbelkins]

Some places even have multiple transponders within a state/province (Indiana and Quebec come to mind with examples that are so egregious that I would call them criminal.

Where in Indiana is there a transponder that's not EZ-Pass compatible?

[vdeane]

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

Some places even have multiple transponders within a state/province (Indiana and Quebec come to mind with examples that are so egregious that I would call them criminal.

Where in Indiana is there a transponder that's not EZ-Pass compatible?

Wabash Bridge.  They have their own pass for the bridge only that's not interoperable with anything.  It's illegal to use the bridge without a pass.

[Pete from Boston]

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

You're talking about a choice. I'm talking about no choice (and often no access to money).

[1995hoo]

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

[Pete from Boston]

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

I think we're onto something here — free-market private transponder companies, ones that work with multiple (or all) systems. 

Shop around for the best deal.  Perhaps your local provider will refund service charges from other networks.  Or partner with Six Flags and give you half off the tolls when you buy ahead.

Honestly, I can't believe nobody's trying this.

[jeffandnicole]

It depends on your particular bank account as well.  At my bank, my account requires a small minimum balance to remain maintenance fee-free, but I get dinged for out-of-network ATM fees.  I could choose an account where I have to maintain a larger balance to waive all ATM fees. 

30 years ago, when ATMs were just beginning to sprout up, it was probably one of the early beginnings to the modern era of getting something on demand (aside from using a check cashing company).  Prior to that, if the bank was closed, you were out of luck.  And if you wanted cash, you had to go to the ATM at your own bank.  It was a gradual process before you could get cash at any ATM within the state, then within the country, then within the world, then private ATMs started sprouting up.  Somewhere along that line, you could get cash back by using a debit card at stores as well.  It didn't happen overnight.

Inter-operatability of toll transponders is probably much sooner than a decade out.  We're probably looking at a few years at most.

[1995hoo]

I think the biggest barrier to inter-operability is not so much the technology as it is certain aspects of certain toll agencies' operations. The best such example, in my mind, is the insistence on some of the E-ZPass member agencies of continuing to operate the gate arms in the converted toll plaza lanes even when said lanes are in "E-ZPass Only" operation. (Some members, such as the Dulles Greenway, will sometimes lock the gate arm in the "up" position during "E-ZPass Only" operation. Others don't.) This poses the practical problem that incompatible transponders, and vehicles with no transponders, will not trigger the gate arm to rise. It wouldn't be all that difficult, as a technical matter, to lock the gate arm in the "up" position and then use photo enforcement (assuming issues with out-of-state plate lookup were resolved, of course), so it's more an issue of agency stubbornness.

I don't know how it works at most toll plazas when someone without a transponder drives into an ETC-only lane with an operating gate arm. That has happened to me once, at the Rickenbacker Causeway in Miami (the one that goes to Key Biscayne) when they were not a SunPass member, and I was chagrined that it happened at all. Problem was twofold–(1) other agencies in Florida had other names for their ETC systems yet accepted SunPass such that I thought the Rickenbacker would be the same and (2) the only sign saying "No SunPass" was an 8.5-by-11-inch piece of paper once you were already in that lane, and in my case, I couldn't back up because someone was behind me. Eventually the arm went up. I have no idea whether someone in the nearby office triggered it or whether the toll lane itself had some kind of equipment that will trigger it if you wait too long. Either way, I never got a bill. But also either way, that sort of thing is clearly not a viable option for more heavily-trafficked toll plazas (I'm thinking of, for instance, the Verrazano Bridge or the Jersey Turnpike). It simply slows things down way too much if every vehicle with no transponder causes a delay like that.

BTW, to a limited degree some people already do "shop around for the best deal" when it comes to E-ZPass. It's not unusual for people to get the device from another state that doesn't charge a monthly fee or that requires a lower standing balance or the like. (Then, at the other extreme, you have forum member "mtantillo," who has noted he has three E-ZPass transponders from different agencies so as to avail himself of various toll discounts.) I know this isn't quite the same thing as what Pete from Boston is suggesting. But it's a step, anyway.

[vdeane]

E-ZPass systems with gate arms often have no form of camera enforcement.

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

I think we're onto something here — free-market private transponder companies, ones that work with multiple (or all) systems. 

Shop around for the best deal.  Perhaps your local provider will refund service charges from other networks.  Or partner with Six Flags and give you half off the tolls when you buy ahead.

Honestly, I can't believe nobody's trying this.

Presumably a private transponder company would have an even higher monthly fee (I'm actually lucky enough to live in a state with no transponder fees, so that would be a huge negative) or a large fee assessed every time the transponder is used (a la PlatePass on rental cars).  Also, all transponders are pre-pay now.  There is no such thing as a pay-as-you-go transponder.

[Pete from Boston]

E-ZPass systems with gate arms often have no form of camera enforcement.

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given?

You're still stuck with your own bank if you don't want to pay transaction fees.

....

That depends on your bank. One of the banks we use refunds transaction fees charged by other banks (and charges you no fee of its own when you use someone else's ATM). So we always make sure to take that bank's ATM card with us when we travel!

I think we're onto something here — free-market private transponder companies, ones that work with multiple (or all) systems. 

Shop around for the best deal.  Perhaps your local provider will refund service charges from other networks.  Or partner with Six Flags and give you half off the tolls when you buy ahead.

Honestly, I can't believe nobody's trying this.

Presumably a private transponder company would have an even higher monthly fee (I'm actually lucky enough to live in a state with no transponder fees, so that would be a huge negative) or a large fee assessed every time the transponder is used (a la PlatePass on rental cars).  Also, all transponders are pre-pay now.  There is no such thing as a pay-as-you-go transponder.

But the scenario I propose would mean that providers would have incentive to make theirs most interoperable.  This was the case with cell phone service and range of coverage.  Greater utility would certainly merit a fee to many.  Multiple players and price-lowering competition could easily result.

I suggest this because local agencies are self-interested fiefdoms that don't seem to have a lot of incentive to expand the useful range of their services.  Private enterprise would leap at the chance to develop this sort of thing.  However, given the number of jurisdictions to negotiate service with, this would either a) require a federal mandate, b) require significant incentives for the agencies, or c) potentially take a long time to implement. 

From a business standpoint, thought, I think models exist for rolling this sort of thing out, if anyone ever chooses to do so.

[1995hoo]

....

I suggest this because local agencies are self-interested fiefdoms that don't seem to have a lot of incentive to expand the useful range of their services. ....

Absolutely true on "self-interested fiefdoms." Virginia's DOT refused to join E-ZPass for several years because they said the majority of trips on Virginia's toll roads are by in-state drivers, so there would allegedly be "no benefit" to interoperability, never mind the large numbers of Virginians who regularly travel out of state through the E-ZPass zone. After Mark Warner was sworn in as governor back in 2002, he ordered VDOT to re-assess that and noted that he did "not understand the previous administration's position on this issue." We had E-ZPass interoperability within a short time, followed by full E-ZPass branding a few years later.

[realjd]

Remember when you had to find an ATM that accepted your particular card and it was never a given? 

That's still the case using a US ATM card overseas. Your card have the PLUS logo on the back but the foreign ATM only takes Cirrus or STAR? No money for you.

[jakeroot]

I am so lost that I'd really appreciate an "unsubscribe" button.

[hotdogPi]

I am so lost that I'd really appreciate an "unsubscribe" button.

Do you mean it keeps popping up in "new replies"? What I do for some is open it and quickly go back one page. (3 fingers to the left, since I use a Mac.)