Target no longer accepting checks as of July 15th, 2024

[seicer]

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

B&H Photo and Video is known for this, and it's not really an issue if you shop with them enough to know their intricacies of operations: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/StoreInfo.jsp#hoursOfOperation

[1995hoo]

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

B&H Photo and Video is known for this, and it's not really an issue if you shop with them enough to know their intricacies of operations: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/StoreInfo.jsp#hoursOfOperation

They were in fact one of the businesses I was thinking of. I agree that in practice it's not a big deal, but I was responding to vdeane's comment about a website maintaining "business hours."

[formulanone]

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

B&H Photo and Video is known for this, and it's not really an issue if you shop with them enough to know their intricacies of operations: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/StoreInfo.jsp#hoursOfOperation

They were in fact one of the businesses I was thinking of. I agree that in practice it's not a big deal, but I was responding to vdeane's comment about a website maintaining "business hours."

Yeah, B&H Photo and Adorama are the first two that come to mind. Their websites even have countdown timers and warnings for Sabbath closures and other Jewish Holidays, warning of potential shipping delays thereof.

For many Jews, handling money, monetary/business transactions, or dealing with financial instruments is prohibited during the Sabbath, except in rare life-or-death situations (a hospital visit, for example). Strict observance means ignoring a $20 bill laying on the ground while going for a walk during the Sabbath. As someone raised in the Reformed faith, donations (tzedakah) were permitted near the temple; as one approaches, but not inside the synagogue and not mentioned during services (for example, no basket is passed around). This may be different from one congregation to another, but I would imagine a lot of similarities.

What constitutes "work" and "not-work" is obvious in many cases, murky in others; for example, it's not work to move stuff around in your own domicile with your bare hands, but moving furniture from one home to another is considered work. Writing and creating works of art or any type is forbidden, but reading a book is not. Consult a rabbi for more information.

[kalvado]

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

I never knew Department of State being subject to Jewish religious laws. Did I miss Israel quietly annexing Washington?  Not that i would be surprised...

[JayhawkCO]

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

I never knew Department of State being subject to Jewish religious laws. Did I miss Israel quietly annexing Washington?  Not that i would be surprised...

What does anything quoted have to do with the Department of State? 

[Bobby5280]

I lived in the Midwood neighborhood of Brooklyn during my last year of college in New York City. It was a trip how desolate the neighborhood would be during Passover. Very few businesses in the area would be open.

Regarding the original topic, I'll still see some people writing out paper checks to pay for their stuff at the grocery store or other places. They're almost always elderly-aged. My town has a lot retired military people. The paper check writers can really hold up the line. But they don't snag things up as badly as people having payment issues with their SNAP (food stamps) cards.

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

[mgk920]

I lived in the Midwood neighborhood of Brooklyn during my last year of college in New York City. It was a trip how desolate the neighborhood would be during Passover. Very few businesses in the area would be open.

Regarding the original topic, I'll still see some people writing out paper checks to pay for their stuff at the grocery store or other places. They're almost always elderly-aged. My town has a lot retired military people. The paper check writers can really hold up the line. But they don't snag things up as badly as people having payment issues with their SNAP (food stamps) cards.

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

I also remember a few decades ago being in line at gas station/C-stores behind people who were cutting checks to pay for $1.50 whatever purchases.

 

Mike

[vdeane]

What constitutes "work" and "not-work" is obvious in many cases, murky in others; for example, it's not work to move stuff around in your own domicile with your bare hands, but moving furniture from one home to another is considered work. Writing and creating works of art or any type is forbidden, but reading a book is not. Consult a rabbi for more information.

It seems like rules lawyering around "work" and avoiding "work" is more work than the "work" they're trying to avoid is.  Seems like a lot of these rules might have made sense when innovations like elevators and whatnot were new and using them was like working at a factory, but makes no sense now that they're part of daily life.

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

I never knew Department of State being subject to Jewish religious laws. Did I miss Israel quietly annexing Washington?  Not that i would be surprised...

What does anything quoted have to do with the Department of State? 

This whole discussion started because the online passport renewal system only operates during normal business hours.  Fun fact: the NYS pension system website is the same way.  Want to eat out with friends and then check your annual statement when you get home?  Too bad, try again tomorrow, can't sign in after 7 PM for no good reason.

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

It's interesting, because it seems natural for me to just pay for everything with the credit card.  My generation views is as a convenience to avoid fumbling around with cash, while it seems like older generations view them almost as an alternative to checks instead.

[kalvado]

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I know of a number of businesses, almost all of them based in New York, that operate websites that will allow you to view items, and add them to your shopping cart, but will not let you check out at any time from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, as well as on certain Jewish holy days. I gather the intent has something to do with the concept that letting you complete a transaction apparently constitutes a violation of the Jewish precept against performing any work on the Sabbath. I don't know enough about all the ins and outs of that precept to understand why that is, as opposed to allowing people to order but then the company not fulfilling the order until after the Sabbath is over, but I'm also not going to criticize them about it precisely because I don't know enough about Jewish theology and also because, as a non-Jew, I think it would be in exceptionally poor taste for me to do so (not to mention a violation of forum rules).

I never knew Department of State being subject to Jewish religious laws. Did I miss Israel quietly annexing Washington?  Not that i would be surprised...

What does anything quoted have to do with the Department of State? 

It started with DoS website having business hours.

Yet the dawn and sunset are presently very close together...

Thanks for visiting! Our daily window for Online Passport Renewal has now closed. A limited number of individuals can renew their passports online each day during our public beta period. Please try again another day or visit travel.state.gov/renew to renew by mail.

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

Not "hours" per se, though

[hbelkins]

Yeah, B&H Photo and Adorama are the first two that come to mind. Their websites even have countdown timers and warnings for Sabbath closures and other Jewish Holidays, warning of potential shipping delays thereof.

For many Jews, handling money, monetary/business transactions, or dealing with financial instruments is prohibited during the Sabbath, except in rare life-or-death situations (a hospital visit, for example). Strict observance means ignoring a $20 bill laying on the ground while going for a walk during the Sabbath. As someone raised in the Reformed faith, donations (tzedakah) were permitted near the temple; as one approaches, but not inside the synagogue and not mentioned during services (for example, no basket is passed around). This may be different from one congregation to another, but I would imagine a lot of similarities.

What constitutes "work" and "not-work" is obvious in many cases, murky in others; for example, it's not work to move stuff around in your own domicile with your bare hands, but moving furniture from one home to another is considered work. Writing and creating works of art or any type is forbidden, but reading a book is not. Consult a rabbi for more information.

B&H and Adorama were my first two thoughts as well.

My first experience with the "work" vs. "not work" quandary came when I attended a road meet several years ago. One of the participants was not able to drive for a portion of the meet. I naively thought it might be because part of the drive was going to be when it was dark and he had vision issues that precluded him driving. I was wrong. It was because his faith did not allow him to drive on the Sabbath.

Why driving is an issue, but not riding with someone else who's driving, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

[JayhawkCO]

Why driving is an issue, but not riding with someone else who's driving, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

No meat on Fridays
Women's hair/ankles
Hot caffeine

Everybody has something.

[Bobby5280]

It's interesting, because it seems natural for me to just pay for everything with the credit card.  My generation views is as a convenience to avoid fumbling around with cash, while it seems like older generations view them almost as an alternative to checks instead.

We had no choice but to go cash-only at our beer and soft drink booths at this event. In the past, the Internet pipe our point-of-sale system relied on at Elmer Thomas Park got overwhelmed, especially when the fireworks display got started. Every other asshole with a phone felt the need to live-stream the event -as if anyone else is going to give that much of a damn to watch that video online live or later. I don't know why so much of the mobile phone activity was going onto the Internet pipe rather than staying in the cellular networks. Whatever it was caused a lot of malfunctions in processing card payments. It got worse and worse later into the evening and not working at all once the fireworks show got started. We were NOT going through that crap again.

Some customers were annoyed at us not taking their cards. Their inconvenience is nothing compared to the stress we had to put up with the last time around just to take card payments.

[seicer]

Why driving is an issue, but not riding with someone else who's driving, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Driving is work.

[formulanone]

Hot caffeine

Wait, so the workaround has been cold caffeinated beverages all this time?

We had no choice but to go cash-only at our beer and soft drink booths at this event. In the past, the Internet pipe our point-of-sale system relied on at Elmer Thomas Park got overwhelmed, especially when the fireworks display got started. Every other asshole with a phone felt the need to live-stream the event -as if anyone else is going to give that much of a damn to watch that video online live or later. I don't know why so much of the mobile phone activity was going onto the Internet pipe rather than staying in the cellular networks. Whatever it was caused a lot of malfunctions in processing card payments. It got worse and worse later into the evening and not working at all once the fireworks show got started. We were NOT going through that crap again.

Some customers were annoyed at us not taking their cards. Their inconvenience is nothing compared to the stress we had to put up with the last time around just to take card payments.

We took my son to the state track-and-field finals to see her sister proudly achieve her goals, and the Admission booth was unsure if our card transaction went through; they just shrugged and let us in at midday. They weren't setup nor allowed accept cash, so we lucked out. Still no charges after 60 days, so they probably just didn't care.

Never really thought of the incredible amount of number of cellphone users creating that kind of logjam.

B&H and Adorama were my first two thoughts as well.

To be fair, my wife probably has a lifetime-long prohibition on me setting foot inside B&H or Adorama. Probably would walk out with a 5"x7" camera and an entire darkroom instead of buying a $12,000 lens.

Why driving is an issue, but not riding with someone else who's driving, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Probably best that I don't fully understand, either.

[JayhawkCO]

Hot caffeine

Wait, so the workaround has been cold caffeinated beverages all this time?

From what I understand, all caffeine used to be advised against prior to 2012. Now, it's just hot beverages (i.e. tea or coffee) per the Word of Wisdom. That said, some LDS stick to the "spirit of the rule" and don't do things like iced coffee either.

[02 Park Ave]

Anyways...

yeah, who writes checks for everyday purchases at big box stores in the year of our lord 2024? Sure, if there's fees for debit/credit, whatever, but that's not a thing at most big retailers.

The fee for credit card use in NJ can be up to 4%. This has been in effect for five years now but has become more commonly charged recently.  There has to be a sign at the POS stating that the fee is being charged and what it is.

I see this mostly at pizza parlours but in some other locations too. I make a note of these locations and then plan to pay with cash whenever I will be at one.

Of course many gas stations have had two tier gas and credit prices for years now.  Using a company credit card usually goes beyond solving that problem.

[citrus]

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

It's interesting, because it seems natural for me to just pay for everything with the credit card.  My generation views is as a convenience to avoid fumbling around with cash, while it seems like older generations view them almost as an alternative to checks instead.

This changed during the pandemic where I live. People didn't want to handle physical money. At the time, I don't think folks understood how that disease actually was transmitted. But the habits stuck, not having to go to ATMs is a convenience, and now ATMs are not as ubiquitous (because people don't use them as often), which makes the problem worse, as bank branches / ATMs start closing down due to lack of use, making it more annoying to go to the ATM, etc. etc. etc.

I basically never use cash anymore; I carry some primarily for cash tips for things like hotel bellhops and valet parking. There used to be lots of "Cash Only" establishments in SF, and they all take cards now (and eat the cost, and/or raise prices accordingly).

I write checks to people who insist on them, which is mostly repair people and other service providers like that. But even there, I'm seeing more and more people accept things like Venmo for payment.

[citrus]

Thanks for visiting! Our daily window for Online Passport Renewal has now closed. A limited number of individuals can renew their passports online each day during our public beta period. Please try again another day or visit travel.state.gov/renew to renew by mail.

The very concept of a website having "business hours" needs to die in a fire.  Shows that they're still in the stone age.

I don't really know what's going on here, but I assume there is still an amount of manual review that happens, so they ration applications to a certain number per day (and during business hours when the reviewers are online) so they don't get overwhelmed. Plus, it's a pilot program, so they likely got approval to do X of these per day, and then use the results to decide whether to expand or shut it down.

[LilianaUwU]

Anyways...

yeah, who writes checks for everyday purchases at big box stores in the year of our lord 2024? Sure, if there's fees for debit/credit, whatever, but that's not a thing at most big retailers.

The fee for credit card use in NJ can be up to 4%.

The thing is, if you're able to have a credit card, you should be able to eat up the fee. Not everyone can get a credit card.

[jeffandnicole]

Anyways...

yeah, who writes checks for everyday purchases at big box stores in the year of our lord 2024? Sure, if there's fees for debit/credit, whatever, but that's not a thing at most big retailers.

The fee for credit card use in NJ can be up to 4%.

The thing is, if you're able to have a credit card, you should be able to eat up the fee. Not everyone can get a credit card.

A credit card can be issued to nearly anyone, although not just any card. Someone with low income or fair credit may only qualify for a general non-rewards card. Some have to settle for secured credit cards, with a deposit required. They're for people with bad credit that are desperately trying to have some sort of card or will do anything to improve their credit scores.

BTW those fees: I've seen up to 3.5% at stores/restaurants. In DC, I saw a few food trucks that noted a 10% fee! Since those fees are only supposed to cover the processing fees, 10% is no doubt illegally high, but it's DC so it's unlikely anyone will crack down on it.

[vdeane]

We had no choice but to go cash-only at our beer and soft drink booths at this event. In the past, the Internet pipe our point-of-sale system relied on at Elmer Thomas Park got overwhelmed, especially when the fireworks display got started. Every other asshole with a phone felt the need to live-stream the event -as if anyone else is going to give that much of a damn to watch that video online live or later. I don't know why so much of the mobile phone activity was going onto the Internet pipe rather than staying in the cellular networks. Whatever it was caused a lot of malfunctions in processing card payments. It got worse and worse later into the evening and not working at all once the fireworks show got started. We were NOT going through that crap again.

Some customers were annoyed at us not taking their cards. Their inconvenience is nothing compared to the stress we had to put up with the last time around just to take card payments.

Where you using an open wifi access point or mobile hotspot?  If so, that would be why.  People see wifi they can connect to, and they stream through that instead of using their data.  Or, in the case of a hotspot, the wifi just goes back to the cell signal anyways.

I don't really know what's going on here, but I assume there is still an amount of manual review that happens, so they ration applications to a certain number per day (and during business hours when the reviewers are online) so they don't get overwhelmed. Plus, it's a pilot program, so they likely got approval to do X of these per day, and then use the results to decide whether to expand or shut it down.

That doesn't explain why the NYS Pension website does the exact same thing.

Online Availability:

Mon, Wed & Fri: 7:00 am to 10:00 pm EST/EDT

Tue & Thu: 7:00 am to 6:00 pm EST/EDT

Sat & Sun: 6:00 am to 11:00 pm EST/EDT

Retirement Online is closed.

[Bobby5280]

Where you using an open wifi access point or mobile hotspot?  If so, that would be why.  People see wifi they can connect to, and they stream through that instead of using their data.  Or, in the case of a hotspot, the wifi just goes back to the cell signal anyways.

It was a closed WiFi access setup from the local ISP in town. The problem is a bunch of mobile traffic got routed onto their backbone running in or near the park. Bandwidth for our connection was overwhelmed anyway.

Over the past year or so at least 3 different companies have been running fiber all over Lawton. My own residential cable Internet connection recently went from 50 megs per second to 1 gigabit per second. I'm not so sure that would improve the situation at our annual "freedom festival" in the park. When people get more bandwidth they tend to make full use of it. Most new smart phones can shoot 4K video. And it seems like way too many people want to be an online "influencer." It seems so stupid how people can't simply watch a fireworks show with their own eyes. They gotta look at it thru their phones while they record and/or live-stream it.

[Rothman]

Hot caffeine

Wait, so the workaround has been cold caffeinated beverages all this time?

From what I understand, all caffeine used to be advised against prior to 2012. Now, it's just hot beverages (i.e. tea or coffee) per the Word of Wisdom. That said, some LDS stick to the "spirit of the rule" and don't do things like iced coffee either.

Your friendly resident Mormon here reporting in.

Word of Wisdom has always discouraged "hot drinks": Coffee and tea, whether iced or not.  Alcohol and smoking also discouraged, of course.

What happened is culturally, some Mormons said, "A ha!  Coffee and tea have caffeine!  That must be the rationale behind the Word of Wisdom!"  I grew up in such a household and still mostly stay away from caffeinated drinks.  Of course, the big exception always was hot chocolate...Still, there has never been a doctrinal broad ban on caffeine.  It was all cultural.

Anyway, coffee, tea, alcohol, smoking and "harmful drugs" are the doctrinal no-nos.  And, with any religon, you'll find a spectrum of adherence across the membership.

[7/8]

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

I'm one of those people . Any decent credit card will give you rewards of some sort (points, cashback, etc.), so why not use it? In my experience, only the occasional mom-and-pop store/restaurant will charge a fee for credit card, in which case I'll use a debit card.

I don't disagree it's good to carry some cash in case of an emergency, but I very rarely use it. Paying by cash takes longer than tap and leaves you with coins to carry around.

[JayhawkCO]

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

I'm one of those people . Any decent credit card will give you rewards of some sort (points, cashback, etc.), so why not use it? In my experience, only the occasional mom-and-pop store/restaurant will charge a fee for credit card, in which case I'll use a debit card.

I don't disagree it's good to carry some cash in case of an emergency, but I very rarely use it. Paying by cash takes longer than tap and leaves you with coins to carry around.

I don't remember the last time I used a debit card on purpose. No protections (or, at least PITA protections) for fraud and such things. I normally keep $40 in my wallet, but won't use the cash unless there's no other choice.