UK Roads Thread

[J N Winkler]

Here is a former alignment of B4069.  It went through a landslide.

Here is Wiltshire Council's page on the landslip remediation scheme for the B4069 at Lyneham Banks:

https://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/article/6085/B4069-Lyneham-Banks

Work is expected to begin this summer and cost about £5 million.  It is theorized that storage of demolition debris upslope from the road re-activated an ancient slide.

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[english si]

I had to look up Skegness after the video because the host portrayed it as a dying seaside resort town. To the contrary, the population is growing

In England that's often a sign of a dying town - both in terms of trying to add population and industry to try and get the economy growing again, and in terms of the people there not being rich enough to have the time to block development (a classic rich-Brit pasttime).

the climate doesn't look horrible (for England anyway.)

Sure, it's East Coast location makes it dryer than places west of the Pennines, but it's only as warm in summer as Bridlington (further north), and wetter to boot. It's slightly cooler, and as-dry, as Nottingham - the big city with the strongest links to Skeggy. You aren't going there as the weather is nice, because it's unlikely to be nicer than where you are and isn't as nice as other places.

Even when it was a thriving resort, it marketed itself on being 'bracing' (ie cold and windy, but in an invigorating way) - it's a dying resort town because all it has is a beach, a few amenities and a big holiday park that is not really any cheaper than going to some crap resort a cheap flight away - eg Benidorm.

80% of the town's population is in the bottom 20% of the country - it's very very far from thriving. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6604480ee8c44200112203c5/Skegness.pdf

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Here is a tour of the M5 viaduct. 

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Tollways in the UK. 

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Here is Auto Shenanigans segment on the M1@M62 Interchange. 

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[Plutonic Panda]

A new massive road tunnel project is underway in the United Kingdom:

[english si]

A new massive road tunnel project is underway in the United Kingdom:

No its not.

Unless you could spending money and producing documents as 'underway'. The SABRE Wiki page for the Lower Thames Crossing was created in 2012 - the project is a teenager! The route (albeit with minor tweaks done pre-2020) was chosen over 7 years ago. They have spent £300m and produced 350,000 pages of documents. It's well 'underway' in that sense, but it's also still not approved.

The Government did reaffirm its commitment this week, along with dozens of other projects that the government was already 'committed' to, but had done nothing about bringing into fruition. In fact the same reaffirmation also saw the government actively say that they didn't want to pay for it.

No construction started, no funding confirmed and not even approved. It's very definitely not underway in my books.

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[PNWRoadgeek]

For some strange reason, I've been especially interested in UK roads lately. Mainly in the middle to northern part of England, I just think it's a neat area. What is there to really know about UK roads, considering I've never been there(surprise, I know), and why are there just random A and M letters, and where did the roads get their numbers from?(i.e A1)

[english si]

why are there just random A and M letters, and where did the roads get their numbers from?(i.e A1)

This might help you understand this

https://pathetic.org.uk/features/numbering/

https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/road-numbers

[Tom958]

So, I was watching this Auto Shenanigans videoabout the installation of two as-yet-unused roundabouts on the M181 when I noticed that the older of the two is striped incorrectly.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5764653,-0.7000087,99m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDYxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

That it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through. The newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.

I posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid. It occurred to me that, while a troublesome minority of American drivers are militantly committed to following European rules in a multilane roundabouts in defiance of our superior pavement markings, British drivers will drive them correctly even if the striping directs them not to and not only not notice that anything's amiss, but ridicule anyone who does, along with their place of origin.

in case anyone doesn't understand what I'm calling European, here's that Spanish diagram warning drivers from the English-speaking world how roundabouts are striped there. In most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault. 

[vdeane]

So, I was watching this Auto Shenanigans videoabout the installation of two as-yet-unused roundabouts on the M181 when I noticed that the older of the two is striped incorrectly.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XfMhT5iGE6jtmsZm6

That it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through. The newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.

I posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid. It occurred to me that, while a troublesome minority of American drivers are militantly committed to following European rules in a multilane roundabouts in defiance of our superior pavement markings, British drivers will drive them correctly even if the striping directs them not to and not only not notice that anything's amiss, but ridicule anyone who does, along with their place of origin.

in case anyone doesn't understand what I'm calling European, here's that Spanish diagram warning drivers from the English-speaking world how roundabouts are striped there. In most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault. 

What is even the point of the European way?  Wouldn't it just incentivize people to never, ever, use the left lane of a roundabout?  When you're in the middle of a circle looking for your exit is not the time to have to worry about lane changes, and unless the roundabout has so little traffic that a single-lane would function just fine, people would just get blocked from exiting from the left lane anyways.

[english si]

the older of the two is striped incorrectly.

Other than lane markings tending not to be typical on two-lane standard roundabouts (cf the original M181 northern terminus), that is a valid way of how we stripe them (eg this roundabout on the A18 in Scunthorpe, this one on the A40 near Beaconsfield and this one at Yeovil)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XfMhT5iGE6jtmsZm6

I think you mean this

That it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through.

In case you hadn't realised, the UK is in Europe!

The newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.

It's striped differently, but it doesn't match any of the designs drawn in the DMRB (linked below) - unlike the 2021 roundabout which is clearly correctly applied Figure D.3 Concentic markings.

I'm not saying the 2025 roundabout is incorrectly striped, I'm just saying it's not one of the drawn examples as its a little more complicated than them.

I posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid.

You mean because they didn't spot that anything wrong with a perfectly standard lane marking arrangement on a British roundabout? That's not a stupid response, but a sensible one!

In most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault.

Focusing in on the 'one roundabout in Scunthorpe' (actually more than one in that town, and many across the UK), the red car would be deemed to have at least some blame. And very much the bigger part if the yellow car was indicating and it wasn't.

Rules 184-187 govern roundabout behaviour. The red car hasn't followed
"get into the correct lane"
"be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you."

"Follow the correct procedure at roundabouts" (note no lane markings in the diagram despite clearly being a two lane roundabout)

The yellow car also hasn't followed the stuff about looking out for other users including "In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to ... traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly" but has followed "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout", which is at least something right whereas the red car is getting everything wrong.

I've not checked other relevant country's Highway Codes, but I'd imagine they'd be similar. If you are turning left (or right in a drive-on-left country), then unless you are Non-motorised user (who are explicitly allowed to stay in the left-hand lane in the UK Highway Code, and drivers are explicitly warned to look out for that) you will be in the left lane of the roundabout.

What is even the point of the European way?

To emphasis the circular nature of the roundabout carriageway and that you are joining it and have to yield.

Wouldn't it just incentivize people to never, ever, use the left lane of a roundabout?

Quite the opposite - as the DMRB says "Concentric markings (see Figure D.3) are useful to encourage drivers to enter and circulate in two or more adjacent lanes. This increases the potential throughput in locations where this does not ordinarily occur."

Though they warn against this on roundabouts with more than two lanes - and this is the reason for the difference between the 2021 and 2025 roundabouts on the M181 as the latter has 3rd lanes on the N-S movement, hence the use of spiral markings per the recommendations of the DMRB.

[vdeane]

the older of the two is striped incorrectly.

Other than lane markings tending not to be typical on two-lane standard roundabouts (cf the original M181 northern terminus), that is a valid way of how we stripe them (eg this roundabout on the A18 in Scunthorpe, this one on the A40 near Beaconsfield and this one at Yeovil)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XfMhT5iGE6jtmsZm6

I think you mean this

That it, it's striped European style, requiring a lane change for right/inside lane traffic to pass through.

In case you hadn't realised, the UK is in Europe!

The newer roundabout is striped correctly-- it's not visible on Google yet, so you'll have to watch the video's drone footage to see it. It's at the 1:43 mark.

It's striped differently, but it doesn't match any of the designs drawn in the DMRB (linked below) - unlike the 2021 roundabout which is clearly correctly applied Figure D.3 Concentic markings.

I'm not saying the 2025 roundabout is incorrectly striped, I'm just saying it's not one of the drawn examples as its a little more complicated than them.

I posted about this at the Auto Shenanigans Facebook group, where most of the responses ranged from stupid to stridently stupid.

You mean because they didn't spot that anything wrong with a perfectly standard lane marking arrangement on a British roundabout? That's not a stupid response, but a sensible one!

In most of the English-speaking world, the red car would be at fault and the striping would make that reasonably clear. In most of Europe and at one roundabout in Scunthorpe, the yellow car would be at fault.

Focusing in on the 'one roundabout in Scunthorpe' (actually more than one in that town, and many across the UK), the red car would be deemed to have at least some blame. And very much the bigger part if the yellow car was indicating and it wasn't.

Rules 184-187 govern roundabout behaviour. The red car hasn't followed
"get into the correct lane"
"be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you."

"Follow the correct procedure at roundabouts" (note no lane markings in the diagram despite clearly being a two lane roundabout)

The yellow car also hasn't followed the stuff about looking out for other users including "In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to ... traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly" but has followed "stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout", which is at least something right whereas the red car is getting everything wrong.

I've not checked other relevant country's Highway Codes, but I'd imagine they'd be similar. If you are turning left (or right in a drive-on-left country), then unless you are Non-motorised user (who are explicitly allowed to stay in the left-hand lane in the UK Highway Code, and drivers are explicitly warned to look out for that) you will be in the left lane of the roundabout.

What is even the point of the European way?

To emphasis the circular nature of the roundabout carriageway and that you are joining it and have to yield.

Wouldn't it just incentivize people to never, ever, use the left lane of a roundabout?

Quite the opposite - as the DMRB says "Concentric markings (see Figure D.3) are useful to encourage drivers to enter and circulate in two or more adjacent lanes. This increases the potential throughput in locations where this does not ordinarily occur."

Though they warn against this on roundabouts with more than two lanes - and this is the reason for the difference between the 2021 and 2025 roundabouts on the M181 as the latter has 3rd lanes on the N-S movement, hence the use of spiral markings per the recommendations of the DMRB.

That makes it weirder.  Shouldn't the pavement markings match what traffic is supposed to do?  Weird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings.  Isn't that what signs and pavement markings are for?

[Tom958]

Thanks for the elaborate reply. Unfortunately, very little of it makes any sense to me, and I can't do a point-by-point rebuttal to a post with so many lengthy links in it-- during editing, it looks like gibberish to me.

First, the former end of the M181 isn't a valid comparison to the roundabouts in the OP because the heaviest traffic flows are between the southern and eastern legs, not straight through as in most roundabouts. From overhead, it appears that there are no lane markings approaching the two-lane exits, and your Streetview appears to suggest that drivers heed the construction joints in the asphalt instead of the nonexistent striping.

Yes, it's true: I pasted the wrong link illustrating the first of the two M181 roundabouts. What I meant to post was this overhead view

Focusing in on the 'one roundabout in Scunthorpe' (actually more than one in that town, and many across the UK), the red car would be deemed to have at least some blame. And very much the bigger part if the yellow car was indicating and it wasn't.

How and why, pray tell, is the red car supposed to indicate that it's staying in its clearly-marked lane?

Rules 184-187 govern roundabout behaviour. The red car hasn't followed
"get into the correct lane"
"be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you."

That diagram is nonsensical because it makes no provision for two-lane movement across the dominant direction of travel even though there's nothing preventing the illustrator from doing so simply extending a green arrow into the right lane of the upper-left roadway. the failure to do so implies that it's not even legal to make that movement, doesn't it?

I'm getting tired of this, and my formerly high opinion of the British has taken a real hit, which I don't need in my life right now.

[Tom958]

That makes it weirder.  Shouldn't the pavement markings match what traffic is supposed to do?  Weird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings.  Isn't that what signs and pavement markings are for?

I think I've figured it out. What we're seeing here isn't the British version of the MUTCD. It's a legalistic document intended to put the responsibility for crashes and other dysfunctionalities onto motorists no matter how nonsensical the choice of traffic control devices at a given site may be. This attitude is anathema to you and me, but the British seem to have embraced it, probably for the same reason they have a king.   

[english si]

Weird that people would avoid the left lane with American-style markings.

That's what neither I, nor the DMRB, said. And I'm not just talking about that it would be the right lane as we drive on the left.

We said that concentric circle markings encourage people to use both lanes. Nothing was said about that not being true for spiral markings.

This attitude is anathema to you and me, but the British seem to have embraced it, probably for the same reason they have a king.

The people in London called the rebels in North America 'Royalists' because the rebels were demanding that the king exert power he didn't constitutionally have. In 1792 Washington, not Hannover, was the George with more power over his relevant people - because the American constitution sort to give them a king not constrained by the 100 years of constitutional development since 1689 (or even 1660), but hated the term. And the power held by the President has only grown since then.

But this is perhaps the same problem as the main problem in this discussion - there's no understanding of nuance or reality and everything must be spelled out explicitly - Kings are bad, President's good, purely on the word used not on the tyranny they actually hold! Diagrams must show every possibility because how else would we know what's legal! Lane markings and signage must tell you the rules of the road at every possible juncture!

The latter is especially nonsensical - the confusion about kings is in the US DNA, but the US is a Common Law jurisdiction, not a Continental Law one. It's not Germany where everything not legal is illegal. It's the US, where everything not illegal is legal.

I should note that the UK has far safer roads than the US - a lot of that is other factors, but a decent amount of the difference is education (the 3 Es of road safety: Education, Engineering, and Enforcement) - because we expect high levels of capability and decision making from our drivers so that they can deal with the unexpected. More than half of driving tests end in a fail (average pass rate is 48.5%).

British driving requires you to be aware of the road and other users (and assuming that they will stick to the rules is against the rules), to make decisions without your hand being held at every step, and to seek to avoid collisions as you make manuevers. What's wrong with any of that?