Wisconsin notes

[SEWIGuy]

As of now, the Madison to Wisconsin Dells project is supposed to start in 2029 and finish in 2051. The first part would be the north end of the project to the US 12 exit from 2029 to 2032. The second part would be from the US 51 exit to the I-94-Hwy 30 exit from 2030 to 2035. The third part would be from the US 12 exit to around the I-39-Hwy 78 exit from 2032 to 2037. The fourth part would be just around the I-39-Hwy 78 exit to the Wisconsin River bridge and on I-39 up to the Wisconsin River bridge around Portage from 2037 to 2040. The fifth part would be from the US 12-18 exit to the I-94-Hwy 30 exit and on I-94 and on Hwy from 2038 to 2045. The last part would be from around the US 51 exit to the Wisconsin River bridge from 2044 to 2051.

I sure hope that isn't the timeline. 22 years is way too long!

I mean, it's going to be expensive. Where do you think the money is going to come from?

[Rothman]

Long range plans aren't set in stone in any sense.  Might as well be written in crayon.

[mgk920]

I wonder what the governors and legislators will be thinking . . .

Mike

[mgk920]

I have long advocated that Wisconsin transition away from 'gas tax' and other related sources of money and to a far more equitable, reliable and predictable way of financing transport works of all kinds, including roads, rails, airports, seaports, etc.  It only makes sense.

Mike

[peterj920]

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/who-we-are/dept-overview/transp-timeline.aspx

According to the timeline from the WISDOT website, I-39/90/94 was expanded from 4 to 6 lanes in one year, 1984 which is 30 miles. Why could work get done much faster in the past compared to now?

[The Ghostbuster]

Whenever construction commences, they should start with the southern-most segments and work their way northward, since the highest traffic volumes are along the Madison-to-Portage segment of Interstates 39/90/94. The Portage-to-Wisconsin Dells should be done later since it doesn't carry as much traffic.

[SEWIGuy]

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/who-we-are/dept-overview/transp-timeline.aspx

According to the timeline from the WISDOT website, I-39/90/94 was expanded from 4 to 6 lanes in one year, 1984 which is 30 miles. Why could work get done much faster in the past compared to now?

My guess is that there was no ROW acquisition since they expanded into the median, AND things are generally more expensive now anyway.

Remember they have to balance this out with other projects too.

[SEWIGuy]

I have long advocated that Wisconsin transition away from 'gas tax' and other related sources of money and to a far more equitable, reliable and predictable way of financing transport works of all kinds, including roads, rails, airports, seaports, etc.  It only makes sense.

Which is fine, but something else is either going to have to be cut, or taxes will have to be raised.

[TheCatalyst31]

I have long advocated that Wisconsin transition away from 'gas tax' and other related sources of money and to a far more equitable, reliable and predictable way of financing transport works of all kinds, including roads, rails, airports, seaports, etc.  It only makes sense.

Mike

The gas tax is pretty good on all three of those as taxes go - barring rare times like the height of the pandemic, people will consistently buy gas, and while sales taxes tend to be regressive that's canceled out somewhat by the poorest people not owning cars. What's the far better way of raising funds that you have in mind?

[mgk920]

I have long advocated that Wisconsin transition away from 'gas tax' and other related sources of money and to a far more equitable, reliable and predictable way of financing transport works of all kinds, including roads, rails, airports, seaports, etc.  It only makes sense.

Mike

The gas tax is pretty good on all three of those as taxes go - barring rare times like the height of the pandemic, people will consistently buy gas, and while sales taxes tend to be regressive that's canceled out somewhat by the poorest people not owning cars. What's the far better way of raising funds that you have in mind?

The problem with a volume based tax (units of money per units of volume sold) is that it is destroyed by inflation.

That has not been addressed by current law.

Mike

[GeekJedi]

Whenever construction commences, they should start with the southern-most segments and work their way northward, since the highest traffic volumes are along the Madison-to-Portage segment of Interstates 39/90/94. The Portage-to-Wisconsin Dells should be done later since it doesn't carry as much traffic.

I disagree. Have you ever traveled Portage to Dells on a Friday or Sunday? I drive from Mukwonago to Portage, Reedsburg, Tomah, and La Crosse on a regular basis, and 99% of the delays and traffic problems have been on the Portage to Dells stretch, to the point where I'll often go 12 -> 33 -> 90/94 just to avoid that stretch during "rush hours". Nothing like a truck driving 65 hitting the left lane to avoid a truck that's going 64 trying to get on the mainline from the US-12 on ramp.

Get that from four to six lanes, then worry about six to eight south of there.

[TheCatalyst31]

I have long advocated that Wisconsin transition away from 'gas tax' and other related sources of money and to a far more equitable, reliable and predictable way of financing transport works of all kinds, including roads, rails, airports, seaports, etc.  It only makes sense.

Mike

The gas tax is pretty good on all three of those as taxes go - barring rare times like the height of the pandemic, people will consistently buy gas, and while sales taxes tend to be regressive that's canceled out somewhat by the poorest people not owning cars. What's the far better way of raising funds that you have in mind?

The problem with a volume based tax (units of money per units of volume sold) is that it is destroyed by inflation.

That has not been addressed by current law.

Mike

A number of states have a percentage-based component of their gas tax tied to either gas prices or general inflation, which is sensible. I don't think Wisconsin is one of them; it should be, but good luck getting the legislature to agree to that.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

A number of states have a percentage-based component of their gas tax tied to either gas prices or general inflation, which is sensible. I don't think Wisconsin is one of them; it should be, but good luck getting the legislature to agree to that.

Wisconsin did have its gas tax indexed to inflation from the 1980s until 2005 when it was repealed. As of 2017, it was estimated to have cost the state over a billion dollars in potential funding.

https://www.wpr.org/economy/gas-tax-indexing-how-bipartisan-idea-ended-bipartisan-unraveling#:~:text=Wisconsin's%20gas%20tax%20was%2016,is%20where%20it%20sits%20today.

[peterj920]

As far as major projects in the future, there aren't too many which is why a long timeline for I-90 from the Dells to
Madison is surprising. I-43 north of Milwaukee, I-94 in Milwaukee, I-41 between De Pere and Appleton, and the US 51 Stoughton project are the current majors.

Seems like all the new big projects are going to be focused on rebuilding existing major roadways. There doesn't seem to be any interest in upgrading any more roads from 2 to 4 lanes. Wis 15 might be the last 4 lane expansion project for a while.

[The Ghostbuster]

Are there any other corridors in the state that warrant an expansion from two-to-four-lanes? The most I can see happening is the gradual conversion of existing four-lane corridors to freeway standards.

[SEWIGuy]

Are there any other corridors in the state that warrant an expansion from two-to-four-lanes? The most I can see happening is the gradual conversion of existing four-lane corridors to freeway standards.

Yeah I don't see any significant ones. I have been saying for awhile that Wisconsin should be focusing on buidling capacity on its expressways and freeways. And that's largely what they are doing.

[peterj920]

I do think there's quite a few highways that could use expansion in semi urban areas. In the Madison Area Wis 19 between Waunakee and Sun Prairie and US 14 between Cross Plains and Middleton have traffic counts over 10,000 VPD and could use an upgrade.

The biggest project that comes to mind is US 12 around Sauk City. If that 4 lane gap is closed it would be a great alternate to I-90/94 between Madison and The Dells.

[mgk920]

Are there any other corridors in the state that warrant an expansion from two-to-four-lanes? The most I can see happening is the gradual conversion of existing four-lane corridors to freeway standards.

Maybe some lesser ones like US 10 east of Appleton, but they are all deeper in the future.   There are some others that are not in the current docket that could also warrant six lane upgrades sooner, though.

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

I do think there's quite a few highways that could use expansion in semi urban areas. In the Madison Area Wis 19 between Waunakee and Sun Prairie and US 14 between Cross Plains and Middleton have traffic counts over 10,000 VPD and could use an upgrade.

The biggest project that comes to mind is US 12 around Sauk City. If that 4 lane gap is closed it would be a great alternate to I-90/94 between Madison and The Dells.

I guess I wouldn't call that a major expansion project - major compared to what WIDOT has spent the last few decades doing at least. It's just a few miles.

But I think we the expansion of I-39/90/94, that the chances of investing a lot into a bypass just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

[JREwing78]

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/who-we-are/dept-overview/transp-timeline.aspx

According to the timeline from the WISDOT website, I-39/90/94 was expanded from 4 to 6 lanes in one year, 1984 which is 30 miles. Why could work get done much faster in the past compared to now?

My guess is that there was no ROW acquisition since they expanded into the median, AND things are generally more expensive now anyway.

Remember they have to balance this out with other projects too.

WisDOT also didn't have to mess with any of the overpasses the last time around. They simply had to widen the bridges on the mainline, which only required widening enough to add the additional lane.

This time around, every bridge and overpass dating from the 1960s opening has to be replaced outright. The I-39/90/94/Hwy 78 interchange has to be replaced. They're replacing the bridges over the Wisconsin River. They have to upgrade all of this to modern Interstate highway standards, instead of the lower 1960s standards they were originally constructed under. They have to raise the roadbed of I-90/94 between the Dells and I-39 by a couple of feet, maybe more. They have to deal with the same kinds of environmental and regulatory red tape a brand new freeway would, and then deal with mitigating the impacts for the folks whose homes are immediately adjacent to the Interstate right-of-way. 

Even ISTHA, with all the financial resources they could bring to bear, took at least 6 seasons to pull off a full widening of I-90 east of Rockford. 

[midwesternroadguy]

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/who-we-are/dept-overview/transp-timeline.aspx

According to the timeline from the WISDOT website, I-39/90/94 was expanded from 4 to 6 lanes in one year, 1984 which is 30 miles. Why could work get done much faster in the past compared to now?

I understand that this info comes from WisDOT, however this isn't the only error I've noticed in their timelines—-I remember being stuck in construction traffic on (then) I-90/94 near the CTH CS interchange in summer 1983 while traveling to Point.  The expansion was not just a one-year project. 

[mgk920]

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/who-we-are/dept-overview/transp-timeline.aspx

According to the timeline from the WISDOT website, I-39/90/94 was expanded from 4 to 6 lanes in one year, 1984 which is 30 miles. Why could work get done much faster in the past compared to now?

My guess is that there was no ROW acquisition since they expanded into the median, AND things are generally more expensive now anyway.

Remember they have to balance this out with other projects too.

WisDOT also didn't have to mess with any of the overpasses the last time around. They simply had to widen the bridges on the mainline, which only required widening enough to add the additional lane.

This time around, every bridge and overpass dating from the 1960s opening has to be replaced outright. The I-39/90/94/Hwy 78 interchange has to be replaced. They're replacing the bridges over the Wisconsin River. They have to upgrade all of this to modern Interstate highway standards, instead of the lower 1960s standards they were originally constructed under. They have to raise the roadbed of I-90/94 between the Dells and I-39 by a couple of feet, maybe more. They have to deal with the same kinds of environmental and regulatory red tape a brand new freeway would, and then deal with mitigating the impacts for the folks whose homes are immediately adjacent to the Interstate right-of-way.

Even ISTHA, with all the financial resources they could bring to bear, took at least 6 seasons to pull off a full widening of I-90 east of Rockford.

Re-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike

[thspfc]

https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/who-we-are/dept-overview/transp-timeline.aspx

According to the timeline from the WISDOT website, I-39/90/94 was expanded from 4 to 6 lanes in one year, 1984 which is 30 miles. Why could work get done much faster in the past compared to now?

My guess is that there was no ROW acquisition since they expanded into the median, AND things are generally more expensive now anyway.

Remember they have to balance this out with other projects too.

WisDOT also didn't have to mess with any of the overpasses the last time around. They simply had to widen the bridges on the mainline, which only required widening enough to add the additional lane.

This time around, every bridge and overpass dating from the 1960s opening has to be replaced outright. The I-39/90/94/Hwy 78 interchange has to be replaced. They're replacing the bridges over the Wisconsin River. They have to upgrade all of this to modern Interstate highway standards, instead of the lower 1960s standards they were originally constructed under. They have to raise the roadbed of I-90/94 between the Dells and I-39 by a couple of feet, maybe more. They have to deal with the same kinds of environmental and regulatory red tape a brand new freeway would, and then deal with mitigating the impacts for the folks whose homes are immediately adjacent to the Interstate right-of-way.

Even ISTHA, with all the financial resources they could bring to bear, took at least 6 seasons to pull off a full widening of I-90 east of Rockford.

Re-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike

What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.

[JREwing78]

Re-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike

What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.

As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

[SEWIGuy]

Re-engineering the Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) is pretty much a given in the upcoming project.  It was totally bodged together in its current form and has many glaring deficiencies.  Basically scrape it all off and start over from scratch.

Mike

What are its issues? The only high-volume movements are 39/90/94 NW to 39 N and 39 S to 39/90/94 SE. Everything else is trivial. The major movements flow fine - the southbound merge point gets backed up when 90/94 E is backed up, but redoing the interchange doesn't fix problems upstream.

As-is, the interchange works OK. But it was designed before I-39 came to exist and doesn't meet current Interstate standards for the SBD I-39 movements to either direction of I-90/94.

What you saw done with the I-43 interchange with I-39/90 in Beloit is what WisDOT plans for this interchange - losing the left exit to Hwy 78 and changing the SBD I-39 ramps to full-speed ramps (instead of the current 45 mph and 55 mph ramps). Hwy 78 will be extended north to meet I-39 at Cascade Mountain Rd. The EBD I-90/94 to NBD I-39 loop ramp will be replaced by a flyover ramp.

Yeah those are improvements, but what they are fixing aren't really "glaring deficiencies." For instance the lower speed limit for SB I-39 doesn't really cause issues. In fact it doesn't really slow people down much at all.