Minor things that bother you

[thenetwork]

A local paper had a big to-do article about how the change to Daylight Saving Time will "be so early the next 2 years" (March 9th this year, March 8th in 2026).

Regardless, it's always (and will be) on the 2ND SUNDAY in March -- regardless of the date.  Has been for a number of years.now and will be forthe foreseeable future.  So hyping it as being so early  is overkill.

Referring to the number of days each year between Memorial Day and Labor Day (aka "unofficial summer season" as being longer or shorter than usual is more reasonable, as you are comparing a period between 2 specific dates.

Now saying whether Easter is early or late in a specific year is also more reasonable as the dates can be several weeks apart, or in different months,from year to year.

[JayhawkCO]

But it still sounds weird to my ears for a date six days from now to be "this <day>". That's why I have the 5 day limit.

To me, it doesn't sound weird to call February 5 "this Wednesday", because it is the upcoming Wednesday.  But I totally understand why someone would only think of something six days away as "next <day>"—especially when it's not in the current week.

In cases of ambiguity, "this coming Wednesday" also works. That, to me, definitively says it is the next Wednesday on the calendar from today's date.

[J N Winkler]

That's kind of like the difference, if any, between...

1.  It's Thursday evening, and someone says "next Wednesday"
2.  It's Tuesday evening, and someone says "next Wednesday"

I've never understood why the "this [day of the week]" versus "next [day of the week]" rule was so hard for people to grasp.  Would lead to far shorter conversations if people had brains.

The latter plainly means Wednesday of the following week because if you meant the next day, you'd probably say "tomorrow."

Question to both of you:

Today is Thursday, January 30.  If I plan a game night at my house for "next Sunday", then what date will that be?  If you think the answer is obvious, then please explain why it should be obvious.

What about if I plan it for "next Wednesday"?

I would interpret the following as:

"Next Sunday" = Sunday, February 2

"This Sunday" = Sunday, February 2

"Next Wednesday" = Wednesday, February 5

"This Wednesday" = Wednesday, February 5

I basically consider "this [day of the week]," "next [day of the week]," and "this coming [day of the week]" to be synonymous when the context makes it clear dates in prospect are being referred to.  However, I recognize others make a "this"/"next" distinction, so I usually either use the last-listed phrase or pin down the calendar date to reduce ambiguity.

Similarly, is there a difference between my saying "I went on a trip in the fall" and "I went on a trip last fall"?  When was "last fall"?

I would similarly consider both phrases to be synonymous.

[kphoger]

In cases of ambiguity, "this coming Wednesday" also works. That, to me, definitively says it is the next Wednesday on the calendar from today's date.

I don't think anybody misinterprets "this ___".  But the question is whether "next ___" means the same thing or not.  That is to say, is "the next Wednesday" the same thing as "next Wednesday", or are those two different things?

[wxfree]

I seem to remember reading this in a Dear Abby column.  Abby compared it to streets.  "The next right" refers to the right turn following the one immediately ahead (this works in town, where there's always something immediately ahead, but where roads are far apart the rules may change [I would say "this right" if you can see it and "the next right" if you can't see it yet).  "This right" means the first right turn.  There's always a "this" and the following is the "next."  If I say "take this right" I don't mean "turn around and go left on the street we just passed." "This" is always ahead and "next" is after.

If we're driving, and I say "take the next exit", it should be obvious that I don't mean to take the second exit.  Similarly, if we're driving, and I say "take the next right", I mean you should turn right at the nearest opportunity.

Similarly, "the next Wednesday" is six days from now.  The question is whether "next Wednesday" means the same thing or not.  Does the presence of the word "the" make a difference?

I don't disagree with your point about streets.  I do wish it were as Abby described.  My reason is not due to language, but for safety.  I've driven for people who would say "turn here" when meaning "turn right here, right now, even though you had no idea that we'd be turning."  I hate that, and it's unsafe.  To me, it's best if "turn right at the next street" doesn't mean the immediate one, which might be 10 feet away, but means the one after that.  There is no "this right" spoken of because once it's less than a block away it's no longer available for announcing a turn.  I try to split the difference.  I rarely give directions because I almost always drive, but if I do give directions I'd say "turn right at the next street" or "take the next exit" referring to the impending feature immediately after passing the previous street or exit.  I like Abby's description, but it isn't really the way people talk.

[kphoger]

Similarly, is there a difference between my saying "I went on a trip in the fall" and "I went on a trip last fall"?  When was "last fall"?

I would similarly consider both phrases to be synonymous.

So then, "last December" was 30 days ago?

[kphoger]

As much as it bothers me that I have to remember 8500 passwords these days, here's one that bothers me just as much:  password prompts that don't even mean anything.  Let me explain.

At work, I work through two different MSOs' programs.  Some of those are webpages, others are on a virtual desktop, others are installed on the hard drive but only accessible through the MSO's VPN, etc, etc.

On one of those, I'm double-prompted to enter my username and password:  I enter them once on a popup screen, then I get directed to another screen where I have to enter them again.  One day, I entered an old password on the first prompt, and it worked just fine.  So now, for the past year or two, I just hit random keys on the keyboard for my 'password' on that first screen, because it's pointless.  And if it doesn't matter, then why prompt me for my password to begin with?

On another one, for a different MSO, I have to re-login every morning because it tells me my session has expired.  One day, I entered an old password, and it worked just fine.  'Ha!' I thought, 'this is just like that other one!'  And so I decided to try it out for a while, entering an incorrect password each morning.  It worked fine, till one day, not only could I not log in, but I also couldn't log in with the other programs for the same MSO—including the one where I can reset my password.  There's a self-help site to reset your password, but I couldn't even log in there either.  I ended up having to use someone else's login for the virtual desktop, then go from there with my own login to reset the password.  But I know others who never had that problem, and they continue to use incorrect passwords every day to no ill effect.  Again, if the password doesn't matter, then why prompt me for it?

[ZLoth]

On one of those, I'm double-prompted to enter my username and password:  I enter them once on a popup screen, then I get directed to another screen where I have to enter them again.  One day, I entered an old password on the first prompt, and it worked just fine.  So now, for the past year or two, I just hit random keys on the keyboard for my 'password' on that first screen, because it's pointless.  And if it doesn't matter, then why prompt me for my password to begin with?

Sounds like the provider's login system was initially configured without a Single Sign In (SSO) integration, and the SSO was added at a later date. The login process is first checking the domain to see if it configured for the SSO, and if so, the login redirects to your organization's identity management system. Once your login is validated, a SAML (Security Assertion Markup Language) assertion is passed back to the provider's system saying that you are validated. That SAML assertion can contain name, email address, and identifying values, but not your password for security reasons.

[GaryV]

I seem to remember reading this in a Dear Abby column.  Abby compared it to streets.  "The next right" refers to the right turn following the one immediately ahead (this works in town, where there's always something immediately ahead, but where roads are far apart the rules may change [I would say "this right" if you can see it and "the next right" if you can't see it yet).  "This right" means the first right turn.  There's always a "this" and the following is the "next."  If I say "take this right" I don't mean "turn around and go left on the street we just passed." "This" is always ahead and "next" is after.

If we're driving, and I say "take the next exit", it should be obvious that I don't mean to take the second exit.  Similarly, if we're driving, and I say "take the next right", I mean you should turn right at the nearest opportunity.

Similarly, "the next Wednesday" is six days from now.  The question is whether "next Wednesday" means the same thing or not.  Does the presence of the word "the" make a difference?

I don't disagree with your point about streets.  I do wish it were as Abby described.  My reason is not due to language, but for safety.  I've driven for people who would say "turn here" when meaning "turn right here, right now, even though you had no idea that we'd be turning."  I hate that, and it's unsafe.  To me, it's best if "turn right at the next street" doesn't mean the immediate one, which might be 10 feet away, but means the one after that.  There is no "this right" spoken of because once it's less than a block away it's no longer available for announcing a turn.  I try to split the difference.  I rarely give directions because I almost always drive, but if I do give directions I'd say "turn right at the next street" or "take the next exit" referring to the impending feature immediately after passing the previous street or exit.  I like Abby's description, but it isn't really the way people talk.

The Google Map lady says "take the next right" when she means the next one you encounter. If you're to go beyond that, it's "take the second right". Of course she gives you more than 10 yards notice.

[Rothman]

... here's what feels natural to me.
Next Sunday = 2/9

Next Sunday = 2/9
Piece of cake.

Even though I don't speak this way, I can also totally understand someone thinking that "the next Tuesday" is the same thing as "next Tuesday".

↓ case in point ↓

From today, "next Sunday" is obviously February 2nd

Every circus has a clown.

[kphoger]

Every circus has a clown.

* kphoger slaps Rothman around a bit with a large trout

* kphoger slaps Rothman around a bit with webny99's large clown shoes

* kphoger slaps Rothman around a bit with J N Winkler's large clown shoes

/kick #Minor_thi ... oh wait, this command isn't supported.

[JayhawkCO]

In cases of ambiguity, "this coming Wednesday" also works. That, to me, definitively says it is the next Wednesday on the calendar from today's date.

I don't think anybody misinterprets "this ___".  But the question is whether "next ___" means the same thing or not.  That is to say, is "the next Wednesday" the same thing as "next Wednesday", or are those two different things?

When I'm saying is that using "this coming" instead of "next" removes ambiguity.

[Amaury]

On the whole day debate, with today being Thursday, if I'm talking about Thursday the 6th, I would say next Thursday. Tomorrow (Friday) through Tuesday, I would say this Thursday, or this coming Thursday, or even just Thursday. And, of course, on Wednesday, I would just say tomorrow. Any Thursdays—or whatever day—beyond the 6th, I would just say the day and the date, as I did in my first sentence above. Or even just the date. Similarly, if I'm talking about the past, Saturday through Thursday (the 6th), I would say last Thursday. And, of course, tomorrow I would just say yesterday.

That's what's fairly common, from what I've seen, and it's easy. I don't know why it's found to be so complicated.

[J N Winkler]

Similarly, is there a difference between my saying "I went on a trip in the fall" and "I went on a trip last fall"?  When was "last fall"?

I would similarly consider both phrases to be synonymous.

So then, "last December" was 30 days ago?

Yes.

On one of those, I'm double-prompted to enter my username and password:  I enter them once on a popup screen, then I get directed to another screen where I have to enter them again.  One day, I entered an old password on the first prompt, and it worked just fine.  So now, for the past year or two, I just hit random keys on the keyboard for my 'password' on that first screen, because it's pointless.  And if it doesn't matter, then why prompt me for my password to begin with?

Zloth has laid out technical reasons for this to be the case--I would agree that the first prompt should be eliminated.

This said, this situation is less problematic than sending passwords in clear (HTTP instead of HTTPS), which a surprising number of systems used to.  One example I used regularly was the old version of Michigan DOT's Eproposals system, which had its own login before it was moved behind the State of Michigan's third-party login wall.

I work regularly with a state DOT that used to put construction plans online in virtual folders that were freely navigable without the need to login.  Several years ago, the ability to walk the folders was removed, and a few years after that, users were required to login.  The login process proved painful to code, so I got used to exporting a cookie and referencing it in the script (as a cookie file in Netscape format) for as long as it would work, which was typically around a year.  Early in 2023, I discovered by accident that the server doesn't even perform validation on a cookie it has never issued, so I simply edited the last cookie file, and have been able to use it unchanged ever since.

[kphoger]

In cases of ambiguity, "this coming Wednesday" also works. That, to me, definitively says it is the next Wednesday on the calendar from today's date.

I don't think anybody misinterprets "this ___".  But the question is whether "next ___" means the same thing or not.  That is to say, is "the next Wednesday" the same thing as "next Wednesday", or are those two different things?

When I'm saying is that using "this coming" instead of "next" removes ambiguity.

What I'm saying is that the word "coming" is superfluous, as nobody thinks of any date but February 5 as "this Wednesday".  (even though I, too, personally add it for the sake of clarity)

[hbelkins]

A local paper had a big to-do article about how the change to Daylight Saving Time will "be so early the next 2 years" (March 9th this year, March 8th in 2026).

Regardless, it's always (and will be) on the 2ND SUNDAY in March -- regardless of the date.  Has been for a number of years.now and will be forthe foreseeable future.  So hyping it as being so early  is overkill.

Referring to the number of days each year between Memorial Day and Labor Day (aka "unofficial summer season" as being longer or shorter than usual is more reasonable, as you are comparing a period between 2 specific dates.

Now saying whether Easter is early or late in a specific year is also more reasonable as the dates can be several weeks apart, or in different months,from year to year.

Hopefully, this March will be the last time we ever have to switch to DST. 

Seriously, though, is that any different than calling this past year's Thanksgiving "a late Thanksgiving" because the fourth Thursday was on Nov. 28? Or if the first Tuesday after the first Monday happens to be the 8th, calling it "a late Election Day?"

[JayhawkCO]

In cases of ambiguity, "this coming Wednesday" also works. That, to me, definitively says it is the next Wednesday on the calendar from today's date.

I don't think anybody misinterprets "this ___".  But the question is whether "next ___" means the same thing or not.  That is to say, is "the next Wednesday" the same thing as "next Wednesday", or are those two different things?

When I'm saying is that using "this coming" instead of "next" removes ambiguity.

What I'm saying is that the word "coming" is superfluous, as nobody thinks of any date but February 5 as "this Wednesday".  (even though I, too, personally add it for the sake of clarity)

I'd argue that "this Wednesday" remains just a bit ambiguous. "This Wednesday, I went to game night with my friends."

[Amaury]

I don't see any ambiguity there, though. You went. Past tense. So, it's clear you're referring to the past. If you want to be super clear, though, you could also just say yesterday, if it's the day after, or "On Wednesday, I went..." until the next Wednesday comes along, of course, as then you would have to add the date.

To add, "this [day]" by itself specifically refers to the future, to a coming day. This Monday = This coming Monday. No ambiguity.

[J N Winkler]

I'd argue that "this Wednesday" remains just a bit ambiguous. "This Wednesday, I went to game night with my friends."

It refers to the past, which removes the ambiguity.  "This Wednesday, I went to game night with my friends" and "This Wednesday, I will go to game night with my friends" refer to different Wednesdays.

[JayhawkCO]

I'd argue that "this Wednesday" remains just a bit ambiguous. "This Wednesday, I went to game night with my friends."

It refers to the past, which removes the ambiguity.  "This Wednesday, I went to game night with my friends" and "This Wednesday, I will go to game night with my friends" refer to different Wednesdays.

I get that the verb tense should erase the ambiguity. "This Wednesday", in isolation, remains ambiguous. That was what I was trying to explain (perhaps poorly).

[Amaury]

Even that's not ambiguous. "This [Day]" by itself—or in isolation, as you put it—specifically refers to the future, a coming day. This Wednesday = This coming Wednesday. If you want to be extra clear, you can of course, add "coming," but even without it, it's clear.

[kphoger]

Even that's not ambiguous. "This [Day]" by itself—or in isolation, as you put it—specifically refers to the future, a coming day. This Wednesday = This coming Wednesday.

Agreed.  I don't think I've ever heard someone refer to a day in the past as "this ____".  Certainly "this past ____" or whatever, but never just "this ____".

[Rothman]

"This Wednesday" never refers to the past.  If it does, that's just bad grammar.

[kphoger]

Hopefully, this March will be the last time we ever have to switch to DST. 

** For the record, this post is NOT intended to start a discussion about the merits or drawbacks of DST.  It's just a related minor thing that bothered me recently.

I've recently been doing an in-depth comparison of intercity bus lines' timetables and prices between a few different city-pairs in Mexico.  Now, after switching back to Standard Time in October 2022, Mexico abolished DST and has been on Standard Time ever since.  But there is an exception:  municipalities that border the USA still use DST, as does the entire state of Baja California, on the same schedule as the one the USA adopted in 2007.  One of the city-pairs I've been working on is Nuevo Laredo and Monterrey;  the former still uses DST, the latter does not.  There are three major bus lines serving this city-pair, and only two of them accurately reflect this important fact.  From what I've figured out about the third bus line's online tool, if you choose a trip date when Nuevo Laredo will have already switched to DST, the departure times to choose from are nonetheless listed according to Standard Time.

[JayhawkCO]

Even that's not ambiguous. "This [Day]" by itself—or in isolation, as you put it—specifically refers to the future, a coming day. This Wednesday = This coming Wednesday.

Agreed.  I don't think I've ever heard someone refer to a day in the past as "this ____".  Certainly "this past ____" or whatever, but never just "this ____".

::shrug:: I definitely have.