"Outdated" Traffic Laws That Could Be Tweaked...

[kphoger]

waiting to make a left turn (exactly what the DDI concept was supposed to eliminate)

That may be what it was originally designed to eliminate, but the reason they're actually built is to save money.  Come on, you know that.  And, by eliminating the on/off (accel/decel?) lane from each side of the bridge, they can save even more money.

[kphoger]

Not sure if this counts as a traffic law, but...

Code of Ordinances — Little Rock, AR
Chapter 18 — Miscellaneous Provisions and Offenses
Article II — Offenses Involving Public Peace and Order
Sec. 18-54. —  Sounding of horns at sandwich shops

No person shall sound the horn on a vehicle at any place where cold drinks or sandwiches are served after 9:00 p.m.

[GaryV]

North Carolina and other states should "tweak" their No Left Turn on Red laws to specifically allow left turns on red at DDIs.

Michigan allows it, but I think I've only seen a couple of drivers (beside myself) that have done it. Granted, traffic is often too busy to allow a LTOR, so maybe other drivers are just being cautious.

[GaryV]

Not sure if this counts as a traffic law, but...

Code of Ordinances — Little Rock, AR
Chapter 18 — Miscellaneous Provisions and Offenses
Article II — Offenses Involving Public Peace and Order
Sec. 18-54. —  Sounding of horns at sandwich shops

No person shall sound the horn on a vehicle at any place where cold drinks or sandwiches are served after 9:00 p.m.

OK then, that car that's trying to back out from the drive thru at Mickey D's at 9:15 - I can't honk at them to stop them from backing into me? Yes, this is an outdated law that should be removed. I can't imagine what would have prompted enactment of this. Maybe too many people cruising in the 50's were honking horns at each other at the Local Drive In?

[wanderer2575]

This morning, I got stuck at a nearby DDI off-ramp waiting to make a left turn (exactly what the DDI concept was supposed to eliminate).

The DDI concept was supposed to eliminate waiting at a second signal to make a left turn to an on-ramp, and it does so.

[1995hoo]

North Carolina and other states should "tweak" their No Left Turn on Red laws to specifically allow left turns on red at DDIs.

Michigan allows it, but I think I've only seen a couple of drivers (beside myself) that have done it. Granted, traffic is often too busy to allow a LTOR, so maybe other drivers are just being cautious.

I would not be surprised at all to hear that the overwhelming majority of drivers don't know left on red is ever legal.

[kphoger]

I would not be surprised at all to hear that the overwhelming majority of drivers don't know left on red is ever legal.

Plenty of drivers in Wichita know it's legal, because there are plenty of stoplight-controlled one-way intersections.  I-135 @ 1st-2nd Streets even has a dual-LTOR in both the NB and SB directions, and I've seen more drivers go on red there (from both lanes) than not.

[thenetwork]

In and around the Cleveland, OH area, many intersections have NRTOR signs for specific  hours...i.e. "8am-4pm/SCHOOL DAYS ONLY".  That one has a lot of gray area ambiguity, especially if you aren't keen on that city's school calendar. Plus why make it NTOR when the intersection is lucky to see actual kids going to/from school for *maybe* 30-45 minutes out of the entire 8-hour restrictive time???

Same for those ambiguous school zones withput accompanying flashing lights that only say list effective times on SCHOOL DAYS ONLY.

 

[kphoger]

In and around the Cleveland, OH area, many intersections have NRTOR signs for specific  hours...i.e. "8am-4pm/SCHOOL DAYS ONLY".  That one has a lot of gray area ambiguity, especially if you aren't keen on that city's school calendar. Plus why make it NTOR when the intersection is lucky to see actual kids going to/from school for *maybe* 30-45 minutes out of the entire 8-hour restrictive time???

Same for those ambiguous school zones withput accompanying flashing lights that only say list effective times on SCHOOL DAYS ONLY.

I agree that those signs are bad.  But...  Is it Monday–Friday?  Yes?  Then I'll assume it's a school day.

[Dirt Roads]

This morning, I got stuck at a nearby DDI off-ramp waiting to make a left turn (exactly what the DDI concept was supposed to eliminate).  North Carolina and other states should "tweak" their No Left Turn on Red laws to specifically allow left turns on red at DDIs.

Virginia allows left on red, but every time I've gone through a DDI in Virginia, I've encountered "No Turn on Red" signs for the left turns. Example here in Haymarket. I wonder whether the reason is that on a DDI ramp, the driver has to turn his head a lot further to the right than he does at a 90-degree crossroads.

That DDI is much wider than the ones here in North Carolina, which are usually designed to fit in the existing interchange footprint.  This one at the Hawfields exit in Mebane is much tighter, with mainline NC-119 traffic still curving into the DDI at the off-ramp.  However, the left turn in the Haymarket example is similar to entering a high-speed expressway from a short lefthand onramp.

[Funny that GoogleMaps still shows the temporary stop signs that worked so well].

[GaryV]

Is it Monday–Friday?  Yes?  Then I'll assume it's a school day.

Unless it's summer. Or between Christmas and New Year. Or Martin Luther King Day. Or you know it's not a school day because your school kids are in the car with you.

It could be worse. They closed and eventually tore down a school a couple miles from my house. The NTOR School Days sign stayed up for more than a year, maybe more than 2 years.

[kphoger]

Is it Monday–Friday?  Yes?  Then I'll assume it's a school day.

Unless it's summer. Or between Christmas and New Year. Or Martin Luther King Day. Or you know it's not a school day because your school kids are in the car with you.

Legally, I'm not even sure if holidays are excluded.

I've also wondered, when facing a "school days when children are present" sign, if that applies to evening programs at the school.  It's all bad.

But slowing down, or not turning on red or whatever, on December 30 isn't going to get you a traffic ticket even if it was technically allowed.  So, as I said, I just try and assume it's a school day if there's any doubt.

[kphoger]

For what it's worth, the vehicle code of Illinois defines the hours of a "school day", but not what days those are.

[Dirt Roads]

waiting to make a left turn (exactly what the DDI concept was supposed to eliminate)

That may be what it was originally designed to eliminate, but the reason they're actually built is to save money.  Come on, you know that. 

I'm from West Virginia so you are giving me more credit than I deserve.

The DDI concept was supposed to eliminate waiting at a second signal to make a left turn to an on-ramp, and it does so.

Back to this specific DDI at the Hawfields exit in Mebane, at least for now the worst case traffic condition is for this westbound offramp turning left (southbound NC-119) during the evening rush.  In order to avoid backup onto the Interstate, I'm pretty sure that there is a special cycle that prioritizes and lengthens this left turn during the evening rush (that cycle is now programmed for 3:30PM to 6:00PM at the Hampton Pointe exit in Hillsborough, just for comparison).

Anywhoosit, the traffic signals at this DDI probably could run in normal mode all day long (with no worry of traffic stacking up on the offramp) if Left Turn on Red were permitted here.

[Just in case you weren't paying attention beforehand, GoogleMaps still shows the temporary stop signs during the construction of the Mebane Bypass.  This DDI now has lefthand turn signals for both offramps].

[1995hoo]

This morning, I got stuck at a nearby DDI off-ramp waiting to make a left turn (exactly what the DDI concept was supposed to eliminate).  North Carolina and other states should "tweak" their No Left Turn on Red laws to specifically allow left turns on red at DDIs.

Virginia allows left on red, but every time I've gone through a DDI in Virginia, I've encountered "No Turn on Red" signs for the left turns. Example here in Haymarket. I wonder whether the reason is that on a DDI ramp, the driver has to turn his head a lot further to the right than he does at a 90-degree crossroads.

That DDI is much wider than the ones here in North Carolina, which are usually designed to fit in the existing interchange footprint.  This one at the Hawfields exit in Mebane is much tighter, with mainline NC-119 traffic still curving into the DDI at the off-ramp.  However, the left turn in the Haymarket example is similar to entering a high-speed expressway from a short lefthand onramp.

[Funny that GoogleMaps still shows the temporary stop signs that worked so well].

The first one I remember encountering in North Carolina felt like a pretty good-sized DDI that was not at all tight.

[vdeane]

Is it Monday–Friday?  Yes?  Then I'll assume it's a school day.

Unless it's summer. Or between Christmas and New Year. Or Martin Luther King Day. Or you know it's not a school day because your school kids are in the car with you.

Legally, I'm not even sure if holidays are excluded.

I've also wondered, when facing a "school days when children are present" sign, if that applies to evening programs at the school.  It's all bad.

But slowing down, or not turning on red or whatever, on December 30 isn't going to get you a traffic ticket even if it was technically allowed.  So, as I said, I just try and assume it's a school day if there's any doubt.

From what I've heard, the City of Albany school speed cameras do enforce during holidays and breaks, so there's precedent for that.

This morning, I got stuck at a nearby DDI off-ramp waiting to make a left turn (exactly what the DDI concept was supposed to eliminate).  North Carolina and other states should "tweak" their No Left Turn on Red laws to specifically allow left turns on red at DDIs.

....

Virginia allows left on red, but every time I've gone through a DDI in Virginia, I've encountered "No Turn on Red" signs for the left turns. Example here in Haymarket. I wonder whether the reason is that on a DDI ramp, the driver has to turn his head a lot further to the right than he does at a 90-degree crossroads.

That might be it; note that the right turn has the same sign.

[Revive 755]

This idea came to mind after getting stuck behind 3 school buses who came up to a fully modern railroad crossing with flashing lights and crossing gates.  Each of the 3 buses pulled up to the stop line, engaged air brakes and flashers, opened up their side door to check for trains.

The requirement to open the side door ought to be removed for crossings that are in quiet zones.

[pderocco]

In and around the Cleveland, OH area, many intersections have NRTOR signs for specific  hours...i.e. "8am-4pm/SCHOOL DAYS ONLY".  That one has a lot of gray area ambiguity, especially if you aren't keen on that city's school calendar. Plus why make it NTOR when the intersection is lucky to see actual kids going to/from school for *maybe* 30-45 minutes out of the entire 8-hour restrictive time???

Same for those ambiguous school zones withput accompanying flashing lights that only say list effective times on SCHOOL DAYS ONLY.

There's an intersection near where I work that is signed thusly:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pASUwaw6iqQJNUaE8
Those are obviously school hours, but the school traffic is coming from the opposite direction. I think the purpose is to prevent traffic from this direction from turning right and contributing to a backup on that road, forcing school buses and SUV moms coming the other way to sit at a green left arrow because there's no room to pull through the intersection. Better that some of the backup occur on this road, waiting for a green light.

[pderocco]

For what it's worth, the vehicle code of Illinois defines the hours of a "school day", but not what days those are.

In California, school speed limits are conditioned on "when children are present". This, I take it, means you can follow the normal speed limit during the day while they're all in their classrooms. Seems sensible.

[freebrickproductions]

This idea came to mind after getting stuck behind 3 school buses who came up to a fully modern railroad crossing with flashing lights and crossing gates.  Each of the 3 buses pulled up to the stop line, engaged air brakes and flashers, opened up their side door to check for trains.

The requirement to open the side door ought to be removed for crossings that are in quiet zones.

Even then that might still let them hear a crossing bell more easily should the signals activate while the bus is stopped there. Plus, I could see it allowing for a slightly better view out that side.

[6a]

This idea came to mind after getting stuck behind 3 school buses who came up to a fully modern railroad crossing with flashing lights and crossing gates.  Each of the 3 buses pulled up to the stop line, engaged air brakes and flashers, opened up their side door to check for trains.

I can understand this law being a good one back in the day when there were a lot more railroad crossings were lucky to have flashing red lights -- even rarer to have crossing gates.

But now in modern times when most crossings are fully equipped and more reliable, I think the law should be rewritten to say that for at least school buses, the full ordeal of full stop, flashers an open doors should only apply to crossings with only crossbucks and nothing else.  Otherwise, buses should treat it as a yield as most other vehicles do.

Other laws that could use a little tweaking?

 

Isn't it already in the MUTCD or similar, that passive railroad crossings (the ones with no lights or gates) are required to have stop signs now? Which means all traffic will be stopping anyway not just certain classes of motor vehicles (I doubt that school buses specifically would be given an exemption if regular buses are not)

As far as I understand, some (many?) states adopted some paranoid procedure after a train crashed in a full school bus in 1930s. It is something like - full stop, engine off, open door and window, listen for the train before proceeding. Way beyond stop sign requirements.

I drive a city bus, not a school bus. We have to stop, open the door and look both ways. There was indeed a crash in the 1930s. A school bus was in a snowstorm, and at the time they just had to stop and look. The driver couldn't see the train because of the snow and something like 30 kids were killed. In Ohio at least, school buses have a lot more to do, but I think that's more administrative than actual law. They have to stop, pop the brake, shift to neutral, kill the fans (I think they have a switch for that), then open the door AND a window.

We have to stop here, even though there obviously won't be any trains rolling through, but it's still marked. Drivers have gotten tickets for blowing through it.

https://imgur.com/a/AH0ZJN3

[vdeane]

The requirement to open the side door ought to be removed for crossings that are in quiet zones.

Wouldn't it make the requirement more important?  The train horn is a lot louder than just the sound of the train moving on the tracks.

drive a city bus, not a school bus. We have to stop, open the door and look both ways. There was indeed a crash in the 1930s. A school bus was in a snowstorm, and at the time they just had to stop and look. The driver couldn't see the train because of the snow and something like 30 kids were killed. In Ohio at least, school buses have a lot more to do, but I think that's more administrative than actual law. They have to stop, pop the brake, shift to neutral, kill the fans (I think they have a switch for that), then open the door AND a window.

We have to stop here, even though there obviously won't be any trains rolling through, but it's still marked. Drivers have gotten tickets for blowing through it.

https://imgur.com/a/AH0ZJN3

That begs the question: at what point do the requirements make it less safe by making the bus take a long time to get going again after the driver has checked for a train?  An entire Amtrak train on a high speed line can come and go in the time that procedure takes.

[kalvado]

The requirement to open the side door ought to be removed for crossings that are in quiet zones.

Wouldn't it make the requirement more important?  The train horn is a lot louder than just the sound of the train moving on the tracks.

drive a city bus, not a school bus. We have to stop, open the door and look both ways. There was indeed a crash in the 1930s. A school bus was in a snowstorm, and at the time they just had to stop and look. The driver couldn't see the train because of the snow and something like 30 kids were killed. In Ohio at least, school buses have a lot more to do, but I think that's more administrative than actual law. They have to stop, pop the brake, shift to neutral, kill the fans (I think they have a switch for that), then open the door AND a window.

We have to stop here, even though there obviously won't be any trains rolling through, but it's still marked. Drivers have gotten tickets for blowing through it.

https://imgur.com/a/AH0ZJN3

That begs the question: at what point do the requirements make it less safe by making the bus take a long time to get going again after the driver has checked for a train?  An entire Amtrak train on a high speed line can come and go in the time that procedure takes.

Isn't that the way most regulation work anyway? 
Political rant - while some people do things like it's a cancer surgery performed with an ax, multiple cancer diagnosis are way overdue...

[vdeane]

The requirement to open the side door ought to be removed for crossings that are in quiet zones.

Wouldn't it make the requirement more important?  The train horn is a lot louder than just the sound of the train moving on the tracks.

drive a city bus, not a school bus. We have to stop, open the door and look both ways. There was indeed a crash in the 1930s. A school bus was in a snowstorm, and at the time they just had to stop and look. The driver couldn't see the train because of the snow and something like 30 kids were killed. In Ohio at least, school buses have a lot more to do, but I think that's more administrative than actual law. They have to stop, pop the brake, shift to neutral, kill the fans (I think they have a switch for that), then open the door AND a window.

We have to stop here, even though there obviously won't be any trains rolling through, but it's still marked. Drivers have gotten tickets for blowing through it.

https://imgur.com/a/AH0ZJN3

That begs the question: at what point do the requirements make it less safe by making the bus take a long time to get going again after the driver has checked for a train?  An entire Amtrak train on a high speed line can come and go in the time that procedure takes.

Isn't that the way most regulation work anyway? 
Political rant - while some people do things like it's a cancer surgery performed with an ax, multiple cancer diagnosis are way overdue...

I would say that most regulation, while often implemented in the stupidest way possible, is at least of the variety that would do what it's supposed to if not for the failure to account for the human tendency to try to work around regulations rather than follow the spirit of them rather than just the letter of them.

(personal opinion)

[kalvado]

The requirement to open the side door ought to be removed for crossings that are in quiet zones.

Wouldn't it make the requirement more important?  The train horn is a lot louder than just the sound of the train moving on the tracks.

drive a city bus, not a school bus. We have to stop, open the door and look both ways. There was indeed a crash in the 1930s. A school bus was in a snowstorm, and at the time they just had to stop and look. The driver couldn't see the train because of the snow and something like 30 kids were killed. In Ohio at least, school buses have a lot more to do, but I think that's more administrative than actual law. They have to stop, pop the brake, shift to neutral, kill the fans (I think they have a switch for that), then open the door AND a window.

We have to stop here, even though there obviously won't be any trains rolling through, but it's still marked. Drivers have gotten tickets for blowing through it.

https://imgur.com/a/AH0ZJN3

That begs the question: at what point do the requirements make it less safe by making the bus take a long time to get going again after the driver has checked for a train?  An entire Amtrak train on a high speed line can come and go in the time that procedure takes.

Isn't that the way most regulation work anyway? 
Political rant - while some people do things like it's a cancer surgery performed with an ax, multiple cancer diagnosis are way overdue...

I would say that most regulation, while often implemented in the stupidest way possible, is at least of the variety that would do what it's supposed to if not for the failure to account for the human tendency to try to work around regulations rather than follow the spirit of them rather than just the letter of them.

(personal opinion)

Oh, spirit of the regulation is what would give any lawyer, government or private, a rolling dollar sign in the eye.