"Outdated" Traffic Laws That Could Be Tweaked...

[Max Rockatansky]

Since we're talking about tweaking laws, I think the definition of "stopping" should be tweaked to be something like moving at less than 2mph, a slow walk. That's slow enough to ensure safety, and would increase the throughput of busy intersections with stop signs, reducing backups.

I think the point of stopping is to take away the motivation to save some momentum, which can result in quicker and less well considered maneuvers.  That is, of course, for the one driver in maybe every thousand who actually stops at stop signs.  There's a legitimate reason for making every vehicle stop at some places, but not at every single place where two roads meet.  I think a good solution is to put in more yield signs, using stop signs only where they're actually needed.  Where you can easily see at a glance whether it's safe to go, put in a yield just to establish a right of way.  Save stop signs for places where you need to stop for a better look (due to a visibility challenge or a high-speed road, where a car you might miss with a quick glance because it's far away will quickly be up on you), and then enforce stops strictly (I have the same view of setting and enforcing reasonable speed limits).  A narrow turnaround in a divided road where you can see whether oncoming traffic will impede your turn from half a mile before you get to it doesn't really need a yield sign, because the yield is implied, but you can put one if it makes you feel better.  Putting a stop sign there is silly and reduces respect for the signs.  Don't weaken stops where they're needed, but don't require them where they aren't needed.

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield. Just writing into the law that "stop" really means "almost stop" wouldn't require any signage changes.

Also, where I live in SoCal, I'd say roughly half of all people come to complete stops at all-way stops, and it's really obvious that the ones who do take at least three seconds longer at the sign than those who don't. I often find myself at a particular all-way stop that backs up with thirty cars in evening rush on both perpendicular roads. Shaving three seconds off half of them would get us through that in a minute and a half less time.

What's the name of that special treatment for bicycles at stop sign? "Idaho stop" or something similar?

Yes, that's an Idaho Stop.  Essentially it if a law certain states have where cyclists can treat stop signs as yields.

[ElishaGOtis]

In light of all the discussion about stop signs, the new MUTCD actively recommends against their excessive use, in addition to prohibiting their use solely for speed control.

[vdeane]

I often find myself at a particular all-way stop that backs up with thirty cars in evening rush on both perpendicular roads. Shaving three seconds off half of them would get us through that in a minute and a half less time.

Sounds like it should be replaced by a roundabout or traffic light.

[ran4sh]

In light of all the discussion about stop signs, the new MUTCD actively recommends against their excessive use, in addition to prohibiting their use solely for speed control.

That part has been in the MUTCD for the past few editions as well

[ElishaGOtis]

I often find myself at a particular all-way stop that backs up with thirty cars in evening rush on both perpendicular roads. Shaving three seconds off half of them would get us through that in a minute and a half less time.

Sounds like it should be replaced by a roundabout or traffic light.

In parts of Florida, enforcement of stop signs is highly unpredictable. As such, I usually come to a full and complete stop. However, in Gainesville and Miami in particular, I have been honked at and flipped off over 50 times for having the audacity to come to a complete stop... Whenever I come to a 4-way stop, I usually mess up the flow (unintentionally), and as a result I try to avoid those intersections if possible. I've only had that issue in those 2 cities, but I can imagine it would be a problem elsewhere (Philly comes to mind)...

For those curious, I do not stop for very long, maybe 0.25 seconds at the longest (long enough to where a cop would recognize that as a complete stop, but short enough to not be inconvenient).

[jeffandnicole]

I often find myself at a particular all-way stop that backs up with thirty cars in evening rush on both perpendicular roads. Shaving three seconds off half of them would get us through that in a minute and a half less time.

Sounds like it should be replaced by a roundabout or traffic light.

In parts of Florida, enforcement of stop signs is highly unpredictable. As such, I usually come to a full and complete stop. However, in Gainesville and Miami in particular, I have been honked at and flipped off over 50 times for having the audacity to come to a complete stop... Whenever I come to a 4-way stop, I usually mess up the flow (unintentionally), and as a result I try to avoid those intersections if possible. I've only had that issue in those 2 cities, but I can imagine it would be a problem elsewhere (Philly comes to mind)...

In Philly it's often known as the Philly Slide (or South Philly Slide in South Philly).  All Way stops are frequently found in the neighborhood areas among one-way streets, so it's just 2 streets with stop signs.  And yeah, slow enough to see no one is walking, but stopping is pretty rare. 

At full 4 way stops, I've always thought of them as 4 way yields:  If there's a little traffic and you're doing it right, by the time you get to the stop line, it should be your turn to go thru.

[kphoger]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

[ElishaGOtis]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

Filter in turn within the Channel Islands is basically the same idea as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_in_turn

[thenetwork]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

I wish there was a better interpretation of Stop signs vs. Yield signs at minor intersections -- just like how some crosswalk signs will say Stop OR Yield to peds in crosswalk, even within the same municipality!

[kalvado]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

I wish there was a better interpretation of Stop signs vs. Yield signs at minor intersections -- just like how some crosswalk signs will say Stop OR Yield to peds in crosswalk, even within the same municipality!

I believe there is a mess here as state laws would say one or the other, but clerks handling those orders don't know any better.

[jeffandnicole]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

Why?  It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

[ElishaGOtis]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

Why?  It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

A sign for an uncontrolled intersection could be nice regardless of what it is (within reason lmao). Better than nothing, I suppose.

[kalvado]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

Why?  It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

A sign for an uncontrolled intersection could be nice regardless of what it is (within reason lmao). Better than nothing, I suppose.

Vienna convention has a "priority road" and an "end of priority" signs for that.

[kphoger]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

That is nonsensical.  At least in Kansas, neither street has the right of way at an uncontrolled intersection—so there is nothing to denote.

It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

Nope.  Which street has the right of way at an uncontrolled intersection is not legally denoted in the laws, of my state at least.  If two vehicles approach an intersection at approximately the same time, then the one on the left yields to the one on the right:  it doesn't matter which driver is on which street.

Chapter 8 — Automobiles and Other Vehicles
Article 15 — Uniform Act Regulating Traffic; Rules of the Road
8-1526 — Right-of-way; approaching or entering intersection

(a) — When two (2) vehicles approach or enter an intersection from different highways at approximately the same time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right.

[jeffandnicole]

It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

Nope.  Which street has the right of way at an uncontrolled intersection is not legally denoted in the laws, of my state at least.  If two vehicles approach an intersection at approximately the same time, then the one on the left yields to the one on the right:  it doesn't matter which driver is on which street.

Chapter 8 — Automobiles and Other Vehicles
Article 15 — Uniform Act Regulating Traffic; Rules of the Road
8-1526 — Right-of-way; approaching or entering intersection

(a) — When two (2) vehicles approach or enter an intersection from different highways at approximately the same time, the driver of the vehicle on the left shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on the right.

You say it's not denoted as a law, then you copy the exact law. That is absolutely the law I'm referring to.  Should the two vehicles collide, the vehicle on the left would be cited for failing to yield.

[kphoger]

You say it's not denoted as a law, then you copy the exact law. That is absolutely the law I'm referring to.  Should the two vehicles collide, the vehicle on the left would be cited for failing to yield.

What I was disputing is the assertion that, as |thenetwork| put it, "which street has the right of way" is, as you put it, "legally denoted in the laws of the state".

I live on Christine Street near its intersection with Gilbert Street.  If two drivers approach that intersection at the same time, then which driver has the right of way is legally denoted Kansas state law—but regardless of which street that driver is on.  Neither Christine Street nor Gilbert Street is legally denoted in state law as having the right of way at their intersection.  Sometimes when I drive through it on Christine, I as a driver have the right of way;  other times when I drive through it on Christine, the driver on Gilbert Street has the right of way (but then most of the time they stop anyway, because people think of Christine as the 'main road' through the intersection and therefore erroneously think they're supposed to yield to it).

[doorknob60]

There are still some neighborhood around the Boise area with uncontrolled intersections. I think they're gone from Boise now (pretty recent change, mostly replaced them with 2 way stops on alternating blocks), but there are still some in Nampa.

I don't like them, because of the ambiguity. The only way to know if you're coming up to an uncontrolled intersection where you might have to yield, or a stop sign controlled intersection where you have the right of way, is to look for actual stop signs on the side streets, which aren't always easy to spot. There is no difference in signage on the street you're on.

For example, if I was driving down Florida Ave in Nampa and wasn't paying close attention, I'd have no reason to think I might have to yield. That intersection looks almost identical to this one a block to the north, and Florida Ave is clearly the "through"/more important street there. But it's uncontrolled so you may have to yield. Just hard to keep track of. If we're going to have them, there should be some sign to indicate it. I don't think a "4 way yield" is MUTCD compliant, but that's on the right track.

I don't have any issues with uncontrolled intersections in rural/remote areas though. On gravel/dirt roads or lower traffic roads, not higher traffic state highways and the like.

[kphoger]

There are still some neighborhood around the Boise area with uncontrolled intersections. I think they're gone from Boise now (pretty recent change, mostly replaced them with 2 way stops on alternating blocks)

Maybe I got lucky, but it only took me till about the fourth attempt poking around GSV randomly to come up with an AUG 2023 shot of an uncontrolled intersection within Boise city limits.  Here is another, from OCT-2022.  Maybe these have all been eliminated recently..?

But here's a four-way intersection with only one stop sign.  Huh??

[doorknob60]

There are still some neighborhood around the Boise area with uncontrolled intersections. I think they're gone from Boise now (pretty recent change, mostly replaced them with 2 way stops on alternating blocks)

Maybe I got lucky, but it only took me till about the fourth attempt poking around GSV randomly to come up with an AUG 2023 shot of an uncontrolled intersection within Boise city limits.  Here is another, from OCT-2022.  Maybe these have all been eliminated recently..?

But here's a four-way intersection with only one stop sign.  Huh??

Not to dox myself, but let's just say, I should definitely have been aware of that first one, haha. There are other uncontrolled intersections nearby which I did think of, but I was thinking of 3 way T intersections which are a different situation than 4 way intersections. The 3 way intersections act (in practice) as through traffic has right of way, and the ending street has a yield, which is not a problem.

The kinds of places I know they've eliminated them, are the older grid neighborhoods outside of downtown like East End and North End. Here's an example where it was uncontrolled in 2011, and 2 way stop in 2022. It's not surprising that there's more uncontrolled intersections still out there. But the fact that most intersections are controlled, but a small number are uncontrolled, means people aren't going to expect the uncontrolled ones, and many will assume they have the right of way.

As for your single stop sign, I think I figured it out. In 2006 imagery, the eastern road didn't exist. So when they later built that out, they added a stop sign. But never bothered adding it to the other leg. A bit odd it's still like that though. I imagine people on the western leg would treat it as a yield, with north/south traffic acting as if they had right of way. But legally? Maybe not...

[kphoger]

Well, I for one am glad to live in a city where I can drive through many neighborhoods without hitting at stop sign every couple of blocks.

[ElishaGOtis]

Well, I for one am glad to live in a city where I can drive through many neighborhoods without hitting at stop sign every couple of blocks.

I'm kinda surprised many cities haven't considered going with these as a substitute for stop signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQ7Udjw1Bsitc49ZA

If required, they can be mountable for larger vehicles and trucks (or the fire brigade)

[pderocco]

Well, I for one am glad to live in a city where I can drive through many neighborhoods without hitting at stop sign every couple of blocks.

I'm kinda surprised many cities haven't considered going with these as a substitute for stop signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQ7Udjw1Bsitc49ZA

If required, they can be mountable for larger vehicles and trucks (or the fire brigade)

The problem with tiny roundabouts is that they eliminate the ability for two opposite vehicles to turn left without crossing each other's paths twice, thus requiring that they synchronize their turns.

[ElishaGOtis]

Well, I for one am glad to live in a city where I can drive through many neighborhoods without hitting at stop sign every couple of blocks.

I'm kinda surprised many cities haven't considered going with these as a substitute for stop signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQ7Udjw1Bsitc49ZA

If required, they can be mountable for larger vehicles and trucks (or the fire brigade)

The problem with tiny roundabouts is that they eliminate the ability for two opposite vehicles to turn left without crossing each other's paths twice, thus requiring that they synchronize their turns.

Wouldn't that only be the case at larger intersections? Many smaller intersections like this one only have the room for a small number of synchronous turns, regardless of the island.

[PColumbus73]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

Why?  It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

A sign for an uncontrolled intersection could be nice regardless of what it is (within reason lmao). Better than nothing, I suppose.

Vienna convention has a "priority road" and an "end of priority" signs for that.

Has anywhere in the US tried to introduce 'priority road' signs?

[hotdogPi]

Has anywhere in the US tried to introduce 'priority road' signs?

Not a sign, but a flashing yellow ball at an intersection means you have priority, since the cross street has a flashing red.