Place names you always mispronounce (like Mackinac and Greenwich)

[roadman65]

My neighbor would mispronounce Kissimmee, FL.

He would say Kiss ah Me. It's Ki- sem- me.

Then folks mispronounce Mobile, AL.  Most say it fast, but a quick pause in between Moh and Beel empathizing the second syllable is the way Alabamans say it.

[Rothman]

Bamph National Park...

[WillWeaverRVA]

Some place names can't really be pronounced, such as Banff.

Still surprised no one has commented on this. What's so hard about Banff?

I'm truly Banff-led.

I'm usually somewhat neurotic when it comes to pronouncing things correctly, although I vividly remember being in elementary school and being forced to pronounce and spell Middlesex (County) "Middlesix" because - being children - my classmates would snicker at the "sex" part of it, causing the teacher to be annoyed.

[bandit957]

Some place names can't really be pronounced, such as Banff.

Still surprised no one has commented on this. What's so hard about Banff?

The 'n' always comes out as 'm'.

[JayhawkCO]

Some place names can't really be pronounced, such as Banff.

Still surprised no one has commented on this. What's so hard about Banff?

The 'n' always comes out as 'm'.

If you were using the International Phonetic Alphabet, the sound that you use for the written 'n' in 'Banff' is ɱ, which is a labiodental nasal, or essentially, a blend between English 'm' and 'n'.

[kphoger]

I'm confused now.

In 'Banff', I pronounce the n as a normal n.  Ban - ff.

Wikipedia says that ɱ is like the m in symphony.  I pronounce that letter as a normal m.  Sim - fuh - nee.

[1995hoo]

In New York, you can always tell the people who aren't familiar with the city because they don't know how to pronounce "Houston Street." (For those unfamiliar, it's like HOW-stun, not YOU-stun like the city in Texas.)

Regarding Banff, I've never had any problem with it, and like kphoger I've always understood the "n" to be a normal "n."

[hbelkins]

Norfolk, Va. I always pronounced it "Norfork."

A lot of people don't pronounce Detroit like the locals in Michigan do.  Then again how locals pronounce the city name doesn't resemble how one would say Détroit in French.

I pronounce it like Paul Stanley sings it.

[kphoger]

Lots of cool people pronounce the 's' in Illinois.

I only do this when saying "Cicero, Illinois" because I like saying it like Big Jule in Guys & Dolls.

Not sure if that makes me cool or not.

[JayhawkCO]

I'm confused now.

In 'Banff', I pronounce the n as a normal n.  Ban - ff.

Wikipedia says that ɱ is like the m in symphony.  I pronounce that letter as a normal m.  Sim - fuh - nee.

Warning: Linguistic nerdiness incoming.

When you need to switch the area of articulation from one area of the mouth to another, it's very, very common for the phoneme to "blur" or "glide". Since 'n' is pronounced on the alveolar ridge and 'f' is labiodental, the 'n' comes forward to "meet" the 'f' and that's why the result is 'ɱ'.

You don't hear the difference as an English speaker because 'ɱ' is just an allophone of 'n' or 'm'. It's a sound that is produced differently but your brain processes it as another letter because the differentiation of the two sounds doesn't matter for understanding the meaning of words. But, in other languages 'm', 'ɱ', and 'n' are separate phonemes, meaning that 'ma', 'ɱa', and 'na' could be three different words with unique definitions.

A more common example that's easy to understand for English speakers is 't' vs. 't^h'. In English, they're just allophones and sound alike, but it's very easy to see that they're produced differently. If you hold your hand in front of your mouth and say 'top' and 'stop', you'll feel the difference that there's no puff of breath for 'stop', meaning it's an unaspirated 't', vs. the puff of air you get with 'top' which would phonetically be spelled 't^hɒp'. But 't' and 't^h' are different phonemes (letters) completely in a lot of languages, like Thai and several Indian languages off the top of my head.

tl;dr, if you looked at a sonograph, you would see that the 'n' in Banff is neither a pure 'n' nor 'm', but something in between.

[kphoger]

Warning: Linguistic nerdiness incoming.

When you need to switch the area of articulation from one area of the mouth to another, it's very, very common for the phoneme to "blur" or "glide". Since 'n' is pronounced on the alveolar ridge and 'f' is labiodental, the 'n' comes forward to "meet" the 'f' and that's why the result is 'ɱ'.

You don't hear the difference as an English speaker because 'ɱ' is just an allophone of 'n' or 'm'. It's a sound that is produced differently but your brain processes it as another letter because the differentiation of the two sounds doesn't matter for understanding the meaning of words. But, in other languages 'm', 'ɱ', and 'n' are separate phonemes, meaning that 'ma', 'ɱa', and 'na' could be three different words with unique definitions.

A more common example that's easy to understand for English speakers is 't' vs. 't^h'. In English, they're just allophones and sound alike, but it's very easy to see that they're produced differently. If you hold your hand in front of your mouth and say 'top' and 'stop', you'll feel the difference that there's no puff of breath for 'stop', meaning it's an unaspirated 't', vs. the puff of air you get with 'top' which would phonetically be spelled 't^hɒp'. But 't' and 't^h' are different phonemes (letters) completely in a lot of languages, like Thai and several Indian languages off the top of my head.

tl;dr, if you looked at a sonograph, you would see that the 'n' in Banff is neither a pure 'n' nor 'm', but something in between.

Warning:  more linguistic nerdiness incoming.

What I mean is that I don't pronounce the 'n' in Banff as a labiodental anything.  The tip of my tongue touches my alveolar ridge for the 'n' and at no point touches my front teeth.  When I say the word Banff, my tongue does exactly what it does for the word Ban.

Likewise, as I was saying about the Wikipedia article about ɱ, I do not pronounce the 'm' in Symphony as a labiodental anything.  I say it just as I would in the word Dim, then form the 'f'.  There might be a slight 'p' puff as my lips separate, but that's it—and should further illustrate that it wasn't labiodental in the first place.

[Big John]

Matteson IL. Looks like Matte-son, but pronounced Mat-tes-on, confusingly close to Madison.

[JayhawkCO]

Warning:  more linguistic nerdiness incoming.

What I mean is that I don't pronounce the 'n' in Banff as a labiodental anything.  The tip of my tongue touches my alveolar ridge for the 'n' and at no point touches my front teeth.  When I say the word Banff, my tongue does exactly what it does for the word Ban.

Likewise, as I was saying about the Wikipedia article about ɱ, I do not pronounce the 'm' in Symphony as a labiodental anything.  I say it just as I would in the word Dim, then form the 'f'.  There might be a slight 'p' puff as my lips separate, but that's it—and should further illustrate that it wasn't labiodental in the first place.

Hmm. When I pause myself transitioning from the 'n' to 'f' in Banff, I find my tongue is more advanced and slightly on the back of my teeth with my mouth slightly open. Maybe we just pronounce it differently. Plenty of people have different articulations for different sounds. (I actually wrote a seminar paper on the topic.)

[kphoger]

Hmm. When I pause myself transitioning from the 'n' to 'f' in Banff, I find my tongue is more advanced and slightly on the back of my teeth with my mouth slightly open. Maybe we just pronounce it differently. Plenty of people have different articulations for different sounds. (I actually wrote a seminar paper on the topic.)

That's what I'm thinking.  It's true that my lower lip is already reaching for my teeth (for the 'ff') while I'm saying the 'n', but it has no bearing on the pronunciation of the 'n'.

My wife also makes fun of me for pronouncing Esther as Ess-thurr instead of Ess-turr.  To me, her way just seems wrong but, now that I listen, everyone else says it her way too.

[JayhawkCO]

Hmm. When I pause myself transitioning from the 'n' to 'f' in Banff, I find my tongue is more advanced and slightly on the back of my teeth with my mouth slightly open. Maybe we just pronounce it differently. Plenty of people have different articulations for different sounds. (I actually wrote a seminar paper on the topic.)

That's what I'm thinking.  It's true that my lower lip is already reaching for my teeth (for the 'ff') while I'm saying the 'n', but it has no bearing on the pronunciation of the 'n'.

My wife also makes fun of me for pronouncing Esther as Ess-thurr instead of Ess-turr.  To me, her way just seems wrong but, now that I listen, everyone else says it her way too.

It definitely, at a minimum, makes my 'n' dental.

[Molandfreak]

Any English speakers will mispronounce every city in Québec, as well as the province itself. No, it's not KWUH-beck, it's KAY-beck.

I also make a point to refer to residents as « Québécois(e) » rather than "Quebeckers," which seems to be the consensus in English-speaking Canada. It just seems awfully offensive in a way that "Mexicans" doesn't, for example.

[Brandon]

War cess ter MA

I usually pronounce that as "war-ses-STER", what it looks like.  How one gets "woo-STAH" out of it blows my mind.

[Bruce]

how locals pronounce the city name doesn't resemble how one would say Détroit in French.

Thus how the locals pronounce it is wrong. One of the worst offenders of this is Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

Considering that the trappers butchered (or outright ignored) the names of the indigenous tribes, it's only fair that we mangle their silly names.

Core-da-lane, Pond-oh-ray, and Call-ville are all the correct pronunciations in Cascadia.

[SEWIGuy]

how locals pronounce the city name doesn't resemble how one would say Détroit in French.

Thus how the locals pronounce it is wrong. One of the worst offenders of this is Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

It's not wrong. Just because a place name's origin is French, that doesn't mean that the pronounciation needs to remain in French when its not the language spoken by the locals. 

[Molandfreak]

how locals pronounce the city name doesn't resemble how one would say Détroit in French.

Thus how the locals pronounce it is wrong. One of the worst offenders of this is Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

It's not wrong. Just because a place name's origin is French, that doesn't mean that the pronounciation needs to remain in French when its not the language spoken by the locals. 

I can understand the reaction. Growing up in a place where "Faribault" and "Cloquet" are pronounced in a very close approximation of the French way, hearing the way Michiganders pronounce "Calumet" feels pretty jarring. I also had to train myself not to say "Bel-wah" when referring to Beloit, Wisconsin.

[SEWIGuy]

how locals pronounce the city name doesn't resemble how one would say Détroit in French.

Thus how the locals pronounce it is wrong. One of the worst offenders of this is Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

It's not wrong. Just because a place name's origin is French, that doesn't mean that the pronounciation needs to remain in French when its not the language spoken by the locals. 

I can understand the reaction. Growing up in a place where "Faribault" and "Cloquet" are pronounced in a very close approximation of the French way, hearing the way Michiganders pronounce "Calumet" feels pretty jarring.

Sure, but the reaction is misguided. Place names have done this throughout history. There are countless examples in Europe of cities that were pronounced differently depending on the majority language spoken at the time.

Here is a Wisconsin Public Radio article on the many place names in Wisconsin with French origins.

"As any descriptive linguist worth their weight in salt will tell you, there's actually no "right" or "wrong" way to say things.

"There are established ways," Salmons said. "(The Wisconsin pronunciations) are not wrong; they're established local norms, and those local norms change over time."

[flan]

Minnesotans also do not pronounce Calumet the French way, nor do we say 'Nicollet' the French way (unlike Wisconsinites, I believe, who say nick-uh-lay).

[JayhawkCO]

Not even going to bring up Mille Lacs in the Minnesota discussion? 

[Big John]

Minnesotans also do not pronounce Calumet the French way, nor do we say 'Nicollet' the French way (unlike Wisconsinites, I believe, who say nick-uh-lay).

The Minnesota Nicollet and the Wisconsin Nicolet (one L) were different people.

[formulanone]

tl;dr, if you looked at a sonograph, you would see that the 'n' in Banff is neither a pure 'n' nor 'm', but something in between.

Kind of like the Japanese "n" hatsuon.

Note: my hearing has never been very good - I wear hearing aids - so I mishear lots of fine-tuned sounds and I tend to have a lot of aural latitude for other speakers thanks to hearing a different American Englishese Accent every week.

None. I view it as a sign of respect to pronounce place names as the locals do if you're in the know about it.

All well and good...but when you live 25 years near Miami, Florida; going to Miami, Oklahoma for a few days presented me with The Miami Problem.

The solution was that I just thought of it as a different place and city (and they are!) and didn't think about the spelling as much just defaulting to a schwa.