Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[Beltway]

MDTA is treating this like an emergency replacement of a collapsed bridge, and I strongly disagree with that approach.

So when the I-35W bridge collapsed back in 2007, you'd also disagree with what MNDOT was doing? Yet it only took some 11 months to rebuild the crossing (construction started in October, and was completed the next September). It seems like you tend to oppose the most logical things to do, which is to build a replacement bridge in the same location. It happened in Minneapolis, and it will happen in Baltimore as well.

Indeed, I have already considered the I-35W bridge in this whole matter.

The I-35W St. Anthony Falls Bridge in Minneapolis, Minnesota, has an Annual Average Daily Traffic (AADT) of approximately 140,000 vehicles. This figure reflects its importance as a major transportation route in the region.

The cost to rebuild the bridge after its tragic collapse in 2007 was approximately $234 million. The reconstruction was completed using an accelerated design-build process, allowing the new bridge to open to traffic in September 2008, just over a year after the collapse. The bridge has a total length of 1,907 feet, and its longest span measures 456 feet. The bridge is 10 lanes wide.

This is a far smaller and far less expensive bridge than the Key Bridge and with far higher importance and volume.

The logistics of replacing it were about an order of magnitude less than that of the outer harbor crossing. I-35W bridge replacement was totally justified.

Three tunnels will mean a very long detour for hazmat trucks around the city, since they can't go through either of the existing ones (and this is similar to the current temporary situation), meaning a new bridge is absolutely necessary for them to cross the harbor.

Modern era tunnels are designed to allow hazardous cargos. Many world ports don't allow bridges across shipping channels and there needs to be a way to transport those highway cargoes.

The I-664 Monitor-Merrimac Memorial Bridge-Tunnel (MMMBT) was designed with the clearances and safety systems so that nearly all hazardous materials can be transported thru it, including RVs with standard propane tanks, including gasoline tanker trucks. That was opened in 1992.

So an Outer Harbor Tunnel could be built likewise and to even more modern standards.

[Max Rockatansky]

Discussing the selection of a safe and secure design is exactly on topic.

Let us know when the tunnel idea exists anywhere outside of your head and people arguing with you. 

It doesn't exist in the heads of MDTA management personnel -- they brains are on vacation.

And that somehow makes the tunnel part of the actual project corridor because you don't agree with their decision to build another bridge?

How this not fictional again? 

[Beltway]

It doesn't exist in the heads of MDTA management personnel -- they brains are on vacation.

And that somehow makes the tunnel part of the actual project corridor because you don't agree with their decision to build another bridge?

I don't agree with their decision to build a bridge with a 1,400 foot long main span with main piers in water over 30 feet deep.

And it is still a proposal and not under construction.

How this not fictional again?

MDTA competence with current management is what is fictional. Same with the bobble-headed governor.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think we all get that you don't agree with the decision MDTA. 

What many of us trying to convey to you is that we don't need several pages of you voicing same opinions over and over in lieu of actual news.  Are you trying to convince us to agree with you?  I really don't understand what your end game is hogging this thread up.

[Beltway]

I think we all get that you don't agree with the decision MDTA. 

What many of us trying to convey to you is that we don't need several pages of you voicing same opinions over and over in lieu of actual news.  Are you trying to convince us to agree with you?  I really don't understand what your end game is hogging this thread up.

Then stop arguing with me. Every post of mine (except the first one) has been a response to someone else's post that was addressed to me.

If not for that I would have less than a handful of posts here.

At least two posters have been insulting to me. I have been civil and respectful of each poster.

I have said harsh things about outside agencies but I have a right to do that.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think we all get that you don't agree with the decision MDTA. 

What many of us trying to convey to you is that we don't need several pages of you voicing same opinions over and over in lieu of actual news.  Are you trying to convince us to agree with you?  I really don't understand what your end game is hogging this thread up.

Then stop arguing with me. Every post of mine (except the first one) has been a response to someone else's post that was addressed to me.

If not for that I would have less than a handful of posts here.

At least two posters have been insulting to me. I have been civil and respectful of each poster.

I have said harsh things about outside agencies but I have a right to do that.

I don't think that I've said anything to you that can be construed as being insulting.  I never once said you weren't entitled to your opinions.  I get that you also feel strongly about it even if I don't agree with the entirety of the logic.

All the same it feels like you that you seem to believe your opinion is the most valid and nobody but you is going to get the last word.  This isn't a one-way street, you can stop arguing also and let the rest of us have this thread back. 

FWIW I have a busy day tomorrow so I probably won't on here if this keeps going.  So I guess you won't have to contend with me for much longer.

[Beltway]

I think we all get that you don't agree with the decision MDTA. 

What many of us trying to convey to you is that we don't need several pages of you voicing same opinions over and over in lieu of actual news.  Are you trying to convince us to agree with you?  I really don't understand what your end game is hogging this thread up.

Then stop arguing with me. Every post of mine (except the first one) has been a response to someone else's post that was addressed to me.

If not for that I would have less than a handful of posts here.

At least two posters have been insulting to me. I have been civil and respectful of each poster.

I have said harsh things about outside agencies but I have a right to do that.

I don't think that I've said anything to you that can be construed as being insulting.  I never once said you weren't entitled to your opinions.  I get that you also feel strongly about it even if I don't agree with the entirety of the logic.

All the same it feels like you that you seem to believe your opinion is the most valid and nobody but you is going to get the last word.  This isn't a one-way street, you can stop arguing also and let the rest of us have this thread back. 

FWIW I have a busy day tomorrow so I probably won't on here if this keeps going.  So I guess you won't have to contend with me for much longer.

<<< This isn't a one-way street, you can stop arguing also and let the rest of us have this thread back.  >>>

I see. You're blaming me for the thread being taken from "the rest of us" and you want me to "stop arguing" so that "the rest of us have this thread back."

[wanderer2575]

Then perhaps there needs to be a new thread called --
Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) Replacement
-or-
Baltimore Outer Harbor Crossing (I-695) Replacement

This one is called --
Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

So how about doing just that?

You've each made your point; this is now down to the level of a couple five-year-olds each calling the other a poopyhead and wanting to have the last word.

[Beltway]

Then perhaps there needs to be a new thread called --
Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) Replacement
-or-
Baltimore Outer Harbor Crossing (I-695) Replacement

This one is called --
Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

So how about doing just that?

You've each made your point; this is now down to the level of a couple five-year-olds each calling the other a poopyhead and wanting to have the last word.

The kind of conduct that I have seen in the last three days in this thread by several posters -- explains why I logged off of this group in 2020 with no intents of ever logging on again.

[vdeane]

<<< This isn't a one-way street, you can stop arguing also and let the rest of us have this thread back.  >>>

I see. You're blaming me for the thread being taken from "the rest of us" and you want me to "stop arguing" so that "the rest of us have this thread back."

You're the one who basically admitted that you need to have the last word ("Then stop arguing with me.").  Threads like this are meant for discussing actual news.  Sure, it's fun to speculate about what might be and discuss concepts in the earlier stages of a project... but we're not there now.  MDTA has selected a preferred alternative and is moving forward with it.  Are you an official government entity involved in the project?  Or a community group raising grassroots opposition?  No?  Then it's fictional.  Anything that's only being discussed in roadgeek circles is fictional.  Could be the greatest idea in the universe, could be a crackpot idea, doesn't matter, it's fictional all the same.  I think we all understand that some fictional will slip in because we all have our ways that we'd prefer things be even when DOTs go another way, but it's now been multiple pages of you arguing with the same fervor as dzlsaab about the hypotenuse or Lord Car Horn about the terrain contour of Illinois.

[kphoger]

The kind of conduct that I have seen in the last three days in this thread by several posters -- explains why I logged off of this group in 2020 with no intents of ever logging on again.

The conduct of members on this forum since 2020 has been markedly improved, quite respectful.  I had an extended absence or two from the forum myself and, when I came back, I found that it's now a much more congenial place than before.  If this particular thread seems to have the same sort of hot-tempered arguing as was common before your absence, then perhaps the majority of the blame doesn't belong on all the rest of us.

Honestly, though, y'all telling each other that they don't have to have the last word, that they could simply stop the argument:  it's like my sons blaming each other for keeping their argument going, all while each one finds it personally impossible to stop talking himself.  As I tell them all the time, once you've said your piece, and maybe defended it once after that, then just let it go—and there's nothing wrong with simply allowing the other person to go on being wrong, especially if doubling and tripling down means disrespecting each other.  (And yes, three of my fingers are pointing back at myself while my index finger is pointing at you guys.)

[jeffandnicole]

I don't think the conduct by any poster including myself has been any more than cordial.  A little heated? A little pointed?  Maybe.  But certainly nothing that has been close to inappropriate. 

You referenced commenting to them directly, and I mentioned public comments.  Let's say you do write MDTA.  You get others to write the MDTA as you hope.  There's public comment periods and you and others make their points known.  Write your elected leaders.  Write your governor.  MDTA and these people either don't respond, or writes back thanking you for your input.  What more can you do?  Would you be ok with the decision, or would you continue to say they're doing it wrong?  I have a feeling it'll be the latter, and honestly at that point there's nothing you can do.  Continuing to bring it up occasionally isn't going to change anything. 

[Beltway]

Yes, I am engaged in governmental advocacy actions.

The main issue is the manner in which the project is proposed to be funded, out of federal largesse. If that is canceled then the problem will be solved. Maryland won't be able to build it unless they come up with their own funding, such as toll revenue bonds. That is how the original bridge was built.

I recently contacted thru e-mails and paper mail --

Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE): A U.S. government initiative aimed at reducing wasteful spending and improving efficiency.

Quote from mailing:
   
Please cancel the federal funding for the replacement Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore.

Biden made a verbal promise in March 2024 to provide 100% federal funding for replacing the collapsed bridge, at $1.9 billion -- over and above and beyond normal federal aid highway allocations to the state. That is fantastically expensive and a colossal waste of federal tax dollars to be provided by the entire USA.

It appears to have been written into the omnibus federal spending bill, when his party had a majority in the Senate. A regional bridge with no national importance.   

[ long detailed supporting material following in the mailing to DOGE -- most of which has already been posted in this thread ]
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I of course am not opposed to Maryland getting their normal federal aid highway funding allocations.

Just the 100% federal funding of $1.9 billion over and above and beyond normal federal aid highway allocations to the state.

The I-35W bridge replacement is the largest such emergency federal funding so far, and that was only $234 million and that is a toll-free 10-lane urban freeway in a large city.

Maryland wants their cake and to eat it too -- the aforementioned federal largesse, and to keep tolling the bridge as before!

[kphoger]

A regional bridge with no national importance.

It's an Interstate highway.  Ergo, national importance.

[LilianaUwU]

[Beltway]

A regional bridge with no national importance.

It's an Interstate highway.  Ergo, national importance.

A regional connector. There are three Interstate highways now handling I-95 corridor traffic in Baltimore area.

Motorists in Washington and Philadelphia, for example, can use one of those.

It is important to Maryland, granted.

[NE2]

A regional bridge with no national importance.

It's an Interstate highway.  Ergo, national importance.

To be fair, it wasn't an actual part of the system until after the collapse (when FHWA added it because it was important enough to get federal funding). It was just missigned as one, like I-895 south of I-695 and I-80 west of former CA 480.

[Beltway]

It's an Interstate highway. 

To be fair, it wasn't an actual part of the system until after the collapse (when FHWA added it because it was important enough to get federal funding). It was just missigned as one, like I-895 south of I-695 and I-80 west of former CA 480.

Did some research and there are conflicting sources about whether that change is official.

One says this --
Even after the AASHTO approval on April 29, 2024, the sources indicate that the section involving the Francis Scott Key Bridge and its approaches remains a point of concern. The bridge collapse and ongoing reconstruction mean that not all parts of the formerly MD 695 section are fully operational or necessarily meet all Interstate standards at this time. The Beltway still has a gap where the bridge once stood, and traffic is rerouted.

After the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge on March 26, 2024, and its subsequent reconstruction, this section remains outside the Interstate system as of the latest updates.

The Interstate Highway System has specific design, maintenance, and operational standards. Parts maintained by the MDTA (like the bridge and its approaches) versus MDSHA (the rest of the Beltway) have different oversight, which historically prevented the MD 695 section from being fully part of the Interstate system. The redesignation aims to change this, but physical and operational challenges (e.g., the bridge collapse) mean the "entire Baltimore Beltway" isn't uniformly part of the Interstate system in practice as of April 2025.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Given that 4 miles of MD-695 are not operational, and 2 miles of it are missing, it might not be official to call it I-695.

[NE2]

We'd need to know if FHWA officially added it, but the AASHTO approval included the once and future bridge.

[Henry]

So the main difference is that when the bridge collapsed, the roadway crossing on it was still MD 695 (though it was technically I-695, with the signs proclaiming such), and once the replacement is built and open to traffic, it will actually be designated as I-695.

[Beltway]

Where is the AASHTO approval document I-695 MD 2024?

It doesn't seem to be available online or thru AI app searches.

[NE2]

Where is the AASHTO approval document I-695 MD 2024?

It doesn't seem to be available online or thru AI app searches.

Search here: https://grmservices.grmims.com/vsearch/portal/public/na4/aashto/default

[Strider]

There are exceptions in the event of emergency replacement in the interest of getting infrastructure back up and running.  These exceptions are limited and require the replacement to substantially be similar to what was there before (for example, as I understand it, an additional lane like many here wanted would also require full NEPA and not qualify for the exception) - it's not carte blanch to act like it's the 1950s again.

MDTA is treating this like an emergency replacement of a collapsed bridge, and I strongly disagree with that approach.

I knew when it fell that it would be 5 years minimum to get a new crossing open to traffic, and only if there were no problems and delays (such as on SFOBB and Corpus Christi bridges). That length of time is what it takes for a project of this magnitude and that takes it out of the realm of "emergency" and puts it in the realm of a new freeway project that should be put thru a full NEPA EIS process.

I don't see how their scheme is substantially similar to what was there before. The vertical navigational clearance will be 45 feet higher and that will make the bridge 2.4 miles long when the old bridge was 1.6 miles.

My comment about the 1950s stemmed from a poster comment that in effect it is none of my business to question what the highway agency is planning.

My goal here is merely to get highway-knowledgeable people to think about what I have said, to analyze whether this project is being handled properly, and if they think it is not, to confront the highway agency with phone calls and e-mails with their concerns. And soon before any construction starts.

Well, not sure what you're trying to accomplish here as nothing has been going your way.

[Beltway]

of a new freeway project that should be put thru a full NEPA EIS process.

Well, not sure what you're trying to accomplish here as nothing has been going your way.

Several posters have complained loudly.

As you may know, internet forums typically have a lurker-to-poster ratio of somewhere between 10:1 and 100:1 

Thank you for your concern.

[Beltway]

Where is the AASHTO approval document I-695 MD 2024?
It doesn't seem to be available online or thru AI app searches.

Search here: https://grmservices.grmims.com/vsearch/portal/public/na4/aashto/default

I did use that interface . . . nothing found.

If I am ignorant then perhaps you can help me find it.