Metric Signs

[Road Hog]

The Brits have road signs posted in yards. I assume the first one seen below is somewhere in Wales.

Furlongs are better.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AzzNPRQoJNzwzdge6

and the speed limits are in furlongs/fortnight.

I'll have you know my lorry gets 20 fortnights to the hogshead!

[mgk920]

Maybe they should have remarketed it as: The Five Ouncer, 'cause 5 is more than 4 and 3, you see.

Or perhaps there were just more McDonald's locations.

Heck, even in some of my high-school and college math classes, the muttered phrase "I hate fractions" was oft-repeated.

'Across da Pond', McD's calls it the 'Royale', this because the only exposure that most Europeans have to 'Pounds' is when discussing those curious units of British money.

Mike

[Scott5114]

Even if you can work with fractions, they're not better just because they require more work.

And even if you are competent with fractions, they can be more error-prone. Sometimes I have to work with eighths, but my program only allows decimal input. And sometimes I catch myself thinking ⅝ = .675 (it's actually .625, and I'm getting it confused with ⅞, which is .875).

[mgk920]

Even if you can work with fractions, they're not better just because they require more work.

And even if you are competent with fractions, they can be more error-prone. Sometimes I have to work with eighths, but my program only allows decimal input. And sometimes I catch myself thinking ⅝ = .675 (it's actually .625, and I'm getting it confused with ⅞, which is .875).

In Europe, math students don't even touch fractions until at least second term Algebra.  That alone cuts about 1.5 years off of the time that it takes to teach children arithmetic.  To me, that sounds like it is VERY efficient.

Mike

[Scott5114]

In Europe, math students don't even touch fractions until at least second term Algebra.  That alone cuts about 1.5 years off of the time that it takes to teach children arithmetic.  To me, that sounds like it is VERY efficient.

Mike

Fractions are more efficient because kids learn faster when they don't teach them fractions?

Or are you suggesting that it would be a good idea to de-emphasize fractions the way Europe did?

[formulanone]

In Europe, math students don't even touch fractions until at least second term Algebra.  That alone cuts about 1.5 years off of the time that it takes to teach children arithmetic.  To me, that sounds like it is VERY efficient.

Mike

Fractions are more efficient because kids learn faster when they don't teach them fractions?

Or are you suggesting that it would be a good idea to de-emphasize fractions the way Europe did?

Maybe it's just Rambling Old Man Brain here, but I think may be easier for a child to conceptualize "one-equal-part of four-equivalent-parts" before delving into decimalization, because young children haven't yet been taught one hundred.

The other thought is that fractions are used in elementary classroom settings as a a visual and tangible introduction for abstract thoughts of equality, fairness, sharing, and limitations. Sounds crazy, but classroom environments require boundaries that if Student A gets a single book/block/desk/snack, then Student B [C,D...] also gets the same amount of a limited quantity.

Metric doesn't really need fractions; everything is decimalized. You'd need the concept of fractions in a mathematical sense or to explain division but there's not much need for "1/3 of a meter" when 0.333m would  likely suffice. Seems odd that in a country like ours with decimalized currency used almost since its founding, we'd have jumped into the metric system almost immediately. But rigid trade and transfer standards were kept and demanding to see the manager overseas three months after you've contractually made your purchase just wasn't that easy two centuries ago.

But why are fractions better for road signs? I think it's no deeper than "what you're used to" and it would take most people roughly the same amount of adjustment with a little practice. Implying that people can never learn nor change is a mental stumbling block; they do it all the time because they've either created fear or fanaticism about changes, or it's been cultivated in their minds.

[1995hoo]

I never found fractions themselves difficult, but at first when teachers gave us math problems with mixed numbers I struggled a bit with those until it occurred to me to convert them to improper fractions to simplify things. (For some reason, this thread is now prompting me to remember that my brother at one point didn't understand that "a fourth" and "a quarter" were the same thing. He once asked for "the fourth-pound hamburger" at a restaurant.)

Regarding fractions on road signs, though, most cars' odometers have at most a tenths place (often on the trip meter rather than the main odometer, of course), so I've always though that using anything other than tenths of a mile on a road sign doesn't make a lot of sense, and once you use tenths, you could just say, for example, "1.5 miles" rather than "1-1/2 miles" even though they mean the same thing.

[Scott5114]

Maybe it's just Rambling Old Man Brain here, but I think may be easier for a child to conceptualize "one-equal-part of four-equivalent-parts" before delving into decimalization, because young children haven't yet been taught one hundred.

The other thought is that fractions are used in elementary classroom settings as a a visual and tangible introduction for abstract thoughts of equality, fairness, sharing, and limitations. Sounds crazy, but classroom environments require boundaries that if Student A gets a single book/block/desk/snack, then Student B [C,D...] also gets the same amount of a limited quantity.

Sure, but you can get the more or less the same point across using division rather than fractions. (Maybe even better—it was embarrassingly late in my school career that I grasped that ⅓ and 1÷3 were the same thing, since the way they taught us in Oklahoma kind of siloed them from each other and never actually explicitly stated that a fraction is just a division problem! And I remember being in fourth grade and getting really frustrated that I tried calculating my own grades and kept getting something like 0.9 when I knew my grade was supposed to be 90%...sigh...)

[kphoger]

there's not much need for "1/3 of a meter" when 0.333m would  likely suffice.

By that same argument, there's not much need for "1/3 of a yard" when 0.333 yards would likely suffice.  And yet we have the foot.

[pderocco]

The Brits have road signs posted in yards. I assume the first one seen below is somewhere in Wales.

Furlongs are better.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AzzNPRQoJNzwzdge6

and the speed limits are in furlongs/fortnight.

I remember a computer OS parameter measured in "microfortnights" (apparently it was supposed to be seconds, but a bug messed up the timing and they found that this was close)

Microchip areas are sometimes measured in nanoacres, which is nicely anti-metric.

[pderocco]

there's not much need for "1/3 of a meter" when 0.333m would  likely suffice.

By that same argument, there's not much need for "1/3 of a yard" when 0.333 yards would likely suffice.  And yet we have the foot.

I'm unaware of any type of animal that has three feet.

[roadfro]

Regarding fractions on road signs, though, most cars' odometers have at most a tenths place (often on the trip meter rather than the main odometer, of course), so I've always though that using anything other than tenths of a mile on a road sign doesn't make a lot of sense, and once you use tenths, you could just say, for example, "1.5 miles" rather than "1-1/2 miles" even though they mean the same thing.

I've always thought this myself. The fact that the MUTCD doesn't allow tenths of a mile, or any other fraction not measured in quarter-mile increments, on signage seems somewhat bizarre... especially back in the days (up to the 90s or so) where most vehicles had mechanical odometers that measured to the tenth that were readily visible on the dash.

[mgk920]

In Europe, math students don't even touch fractions until at least second term Algebra.  That alone cuts about 1.5 years off of the time that it takes to teach children arithmetic.  To me, that sounds like it is VERY efficient.

Mike

Fractions are more efficient because kids learn faster when they don't teach them fractions?

Or are you suggesting that it would be a good idea to de-emphasize fractions the way Europe did?

Maybe it's just Rambling Old Man Brain here, but I think may be easier for a child to conceptualize "one-equal-part of four-equivalent-parts" before delving into decimalization, because young children haven't yet been taught one hundred.

The other thought is that fractions are used in elementary classroom settings as a a visual and tangible introduction for abstract thoughts of equality, fairness, sharing, and limitations. Sounds crazy, but classroom environments require boundaries that if Student A gets a single book/block/desk/snack, then Student B [C,D...] also gets the same amount of a limited quantity.

Metric doesn't really need fractions; everything is decimalized. You'd need the concept of fractions in a mathematical sense or to explain division but there's not much need for "1/3 of a meter" when 0.333m would  likely suffice. Seems odd that in a country like ours with decimalized currency used almost since its founding, we'd have jumped into the metric system almost immediately. But rigid trade and transfer standards were kept and demanding to see the manager overseas three months after you've contractually made your purchase just wasn't that easy two centuries ago.

But why are fractions better for road signs? I think it's no deeper than "what you're used to" and it would take most people roughly the same amount of adjustment with a little practice. Implying that people can never learn nor change is a mental stumbling block; they do it all the time because they've either created fear or fanaticism about changes, or it's been cultivated in their minds.

You don't see decimal points on BGSes (or BBSes, big blue signs) in Europe, either.  If something is '2.5 km' away, the BBS will say "2500m".  That applies for everything below 10 km.

And yes, the USA's Congress came one vote short of adopting the 'French' system of weights and measures during the Jefferson administration.

Mike

[pderocco]

I've always thought this myself. The fact that the MUTCD doesn't allow tenths of a mile, or any other fraction not measured in quarter-mile increments, on signage seems somewhat bizarre... especially back in the days (up to the 90s or so) where most vehicles had mechanical odometers that measured to the tenth that were readily visible on the dash.

I've occasionally seen 1/3 or 2/3. I vaguely recall seeing something like 2/5 or 3/5 somewhere. But those may be gone now, if this is a recent MUTCD rule.

[Scott5114]

California experimented with tenths (superscripted and underlined) back when they were making black signs.

[1995hoo]

There used to be a sign on westbound I-66 listing 1/10 of a mile to the next exit. It's long gone now. I recall originally the sign gave some longer distance that was incorrect and it was patched to say 1/10.

[SEWIGuy]

But why are fractions better for road signs? I think it's no deeper than "what you're used to" and it would take most people roughly the same amount of adjustment with a little practice. Implying that people can never learn nor change is a mental stumbling block; they do it all the time because they've either created fear or fanaticism about changes, or it's been cultivated in their minds.

I agree with you.

That being said, the USA is never adopting the metric system IMO. We had a chance to do so in the 1970s, but never went far enough. It's not happening now.

[74/171FAN]

I've always thought this myself. The fact that the MUTCD doesn't allow tenths of a mile, or any other fraction not measured in quarter-mile increments, on signage seems somewhat bizarre... especially back in the days (up to the 90s or so) where most vehicles had mechanical odometers that measured to the tenth that were readily visible on the dash.

I've occasionally seen 1/3 or 2/3. I vaguely recall seeing something like 2/5 or 3/5 somewhere. But those may be gone now, if this is a recent MUTCD rule.

PA has quite a few X/8 examples plus a few X/10 around Philly.  The most notable X/5 examples I am aware of are I-81 NB at US 60 near Lexington and I-81 SB at US 250 in Staunton (for I-64).  The US 29 BUS Lynchburg Expressway also has quite a few odd examples.

[pderocco]

I've always thought this myself. The fact that the MUTCD doesn't allow tenths of a mile, or any other fraction not measured in quarter-mile increments, on signage seems somewhat bizarre... especially back in the days (up to the 90s or so) where most vehicles had mechanical odometers that measured to the tenth that were readily visible on the dash.

I've occasionally seen 1/3 or 2/3. I vaguely recall seeing something like 2/5 or 3/5 somewhere. But those may be gone now, if this is a recent MUTCD rule.

PA has quite a few X/8 examples plus a few X/10 around Philly.  The most notable X/5 examples I am aware of are I-81 NB at US 60 near Lexington and I-81 SB at US 250 in Staunton (for I-64).  The US 29 BUS Lynchburg Expressway also has quite a few odd examples.

I think these measurements are often very inaccurate anyway. I've seen 1/2 mile warnings here in CA that are significantly closer or further than that from the exit. Or maybe there's no standard for what they're measuring to, where the white line begins to drift to the right, where the exit lane has its full width, where the painted gore begins, or where the physical gore begins.

Maybe they decide where to put the sign first, based on the space available, what other things may be in the way, etc., then they crudely measure the distance, and finally round to whatever units they prefer to use.

Any DOT employees have any observations?

[jeffandnicole]

I've always thought this myself. The fact that the MUTCD doesn't allow tenths of a mile, or any other fraction not measured in quarter-mile increments, on signage seems somewhat bizarre... especially back in the days (up to the 90s or so) where most vehicles had mechanical odometers that measured to the tenth that were readily visible on the dash.

I've occasionally seen 1/3 or 2/3. I vaguely recall seeing something like 2/5 or 3/5 somewhere. But those may be gone now, if this is a recent MUTCD rule.

PA has quite a few X/8 examples plus a few X/10 around Philly.  The most notable X/5 examples I am aware of are I-81 NB at US 60 near Lexington and I-81 SB at US 250 in Staunton (for I-64).  The US 29 BUS Lynchburg Expressway also has quite a few odd examples.

What's intriguing about this one in the Philly area is it's a new overlay of the previous distance of 500 Feet, replaced between October 2022 & October 2023 as they expanded the lane at that time. https://maps.app.goo.gl/SmNccfjVw2zv586L6 .  What's also intriguing is the distance between this sign and the end of the lane is about 2,550 feet - closer to 1/2 mile (2,640 feet) than 3/8 mile (1,980 feet), so it would've been completely appropriate to just use the more common 1/2 mile distance.

[algorerhythms]

Maybe it's just Rambling Old Man Brain here, but I think may be easier for a child to conceptualize "one-equal-part of four-equivalent-parts" before delving into decimalization, because young children haven't yet been taught one hundred.

The other thought is that fractions are used in elementary classroom settings as a a visual and tangible introduction for abstract thoughts of equality, fairness, sharing, and limitations. Sounds crazy, but classroom environments require boundaries that if Student A gets a single book/block/desk/snack, then Student B [C,D...] also gets the same amount of a limited quantity.

Sure, but you can get the more or less the same point across using division rather than fractions. (Maybe even better—it was embarrassingly late in my school career that I grasped that ⅓ and 1÷3 were the same thing, since the way they taught us in Oklahoma kind of siloed them from each other and never actually explicitly stated that a fraction is just a division problem! And I remember being in fourth grade and getting really frustrated that I tried calculating my own grades and kept getting something like 0.9 when I knew my grade was supposed to be 90%...sigh...)

Teaching physics at OU, I once had a student ask me, in all seriousness, if a millimeter was the same thing as a centimeter. And this was a pre-med student. Makes one wonder about the state of health care in Oklahoma...

[formulanone]

But why are fractions better for road signs? I think it's no deeper than "what you're used to" and it would take most people roughly the same amount of adjustment with a little practice. Implying that people can never learn nor change is a mental stumbling block; they do it all the time because they've either created fear or fanaticism about changes, or it's been cultivated in their minds.

I agree with you.

That being said, the USA is never adopting the metric system IMO. We had a chance to do so in the 1970s, but never went far enough. It's not happening now.

In terms of trade and product specification, metric has made gradually way into reforming many everyday items, especially those which may be sold worldwide. But for all goods?...there's a terrific way to go; we'll probably see both units in use for packaging/labelling on consumer items for at least another century, which is mostly how things have been going for the last 30-40 years.

Road signs could phase in both units, but as soon as the idea of additional costs are weighed into the process, that's when the masses lose their minds, and the concept is portrayed as wasteful.

Honestly, I'd get used to it, but would probably still accidently say "mile" instead of "kilometer", or "feet" for "meters". I know I do when work over in Canada.

[vdeane]

Road signs could phase in both units, but as soon as the idea of additional costs are weighed into the process, that's when the masses lose their minds, and the concept is portrayed as wasteful.

And I'm not sure that such is even unique to the US.  It seems that every country that has "slow rolled" metric has eventually stopped.  The same thing happened to the UK - the road signs never switched over.  The majority of the world that did fully switch (or which switched the stuff everyone sees, even if old units are still used in less visible contexts) jumped in head first and changed everything before public opposition had a chance to take root.

[kphoger]

I vaguely recall seeing something like 2/5 or 3/5 somewhere.

Historically at least, Minnesota loves fifths of miles.

Personally, I think it's better than something like this, because I have no intuitive concept of how far 2000 feet is.  But fractions are easy for me to conceptualize, if I think of a quarter-mile as two city blocks.

[JayhawkCO]

I'm unaware of any type of animal that has three feet.

Not looking very hard...