Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[jcil4ever]

Turns out they have begun shoulder widening as part of the repaving work near Nashville. So far the construction has involved shoulders west of NC-58 (Exit 459) east and westbound. I didn't catch where the work began/ended on the western end, but I think it's tied to the current repaving. The press release also does mention shoulder reconstruction.

Westbound between NC-58 (Exit 459) and US-64 Alt/Bus (Exit 458):


Current work west of Exit 458 (westbound)

[The Ghostbuster]

It's unfortunate the Interstate 87 designation won't go any further east anytime soon: https://www.malmeroads.net/ncfutints/fut87.html.

[bob7374]

Turns out they have begun shoulder widening as part of the repaving work near Nashville. So far the construction has involved shoulders west of NC-58 (Exit 459) east and westbound. I didn't catch where the work began/ended on the western end, but I think it's tied to the current repaving. The press release also does mention shoulder reconstruction.

Westbound between NC-58 (Exit 459) and US-64 Alt/Bus (Exit 458):


Current work west of Exit 458 (westbound)

The NCDOT traffic advisory for the project indicates the right lanes are closed between MM 459 and 455 for the next 2 weeks. The project's western extent is Old Franklin Road, Exit 453, the eastern at Old Carriage Road, Exit 463. Will be interesting to see if the shoulder widening extends to either end.

[Beltway]

US-17 exists as a limited access roadway in Virginia with a number of rural at-grade intersections, two signalized intersections, and 3 interchanges. The northern 3 miles is already built as a freeway. That area is currently growing. I think it's more likely US-17 is upgraded over the next couple of decades in piecemeal fashion (interchanges replacing the signalized intersections first, for example) as growth creeps south. The remaining intersections can be dealt with in a single project with an interchange or two and an overpass or two... maybe a frontage road somewhere for local access.
The difference is Virginia has a framework, they have the main highway built - and it has access control. It's just missing a few interchanges and finishing touches.

I went back and found where I analyzed this in depth -- upgrading US-17 in the City of Chesapeake to Interstate highway standards.

Actually it would be an involved and expensive project. Low priority for Norfolk/Hampton Roads. Existing highway works very well.

Key excerpts:

Post #1002, Feb. 2019

Mr. Cartwright's farm [he still owns it] has property on both sides of US-17, it was divided by the relocation project, and he has 3 at-grade intersections [and a 4th near the state line] with breaks in the limited access right-of-way line, they provide him access across the highway as well as to the highway.  VDOT can expect some serious legal opposition if they try to take a major chunk out of his farm, plus serious acquisition expense, so I don't see that is being a feasible alternative.  With most farm equipment you can't accommodate that on a one-lane bridge, so figure a 2-lane bridge with gradual enough earthen roadway approaches so that heavy farm equipment can make it up the grade.

A location/EIS study and public hearings and city resident input would most likely result in at least 5 new public road interchanges, and at least 4 new overpass bridges with no interchange.

There are several ways to address the Cartwright Farm, the least expensive way that also gives him full access to his farm and full grade-separated access to US-17 at about the midpoint of his farm, would probably be to build a private paved service road for 3 miles (yeah, that is how big his farm is!) along the east side of the highway and to build a diamond interchange near Number Two Ditch and it would be for his private use.

A basic freeway interchange with a local road would be about $25 million in today's dollars, just for construction.  The overpass without interchange on level terrain would require earthen roadway approach to meet grade and this would be about $10 million in today's dollars, just for construction.

So that is 6 interchanges and 4 overpasses, or $190 million in today's dollars, just for construction.  Maybe 5 miles of 2-lane service road at $10 million total, now up to $200 million total.

Design engineering and construction engineering together are budgeted at 15% of construction costs, so $30 million for that in today's dollars.

Right-of-way costs would be dependent on the final design and the lands impacted, but for the above I don't think it would be less than $20 million.

So that is $250 million, in today's dollars (in a state or local TIP it would be inflation-factored thru the various budget years).  That $250 million would be a good starting point at this time, naturally it would take preliminary engineering studies and design reviews to come up with a detailed estimate.


Post #1008, Feb. 2019

Here is what happens with my US-17 preliminary estimate which is in -today's- dollars, into what might be a realistic timespan to build it --

$250 million in 2020
Inflation-factored to 2030-2035 program funding
5% per year ------ $473 million
8% per year ------ $668 million
10% per year ----- $848 million

10% average per year cost inflation for heavy construction, is actually rather typical, and some years are worse.  So a properly programmed STIP or MPO long-range plan should IMHO utilize at least 8% per year in the out years on average, although on a plan with a 20-year horizon such as a 2040 plan, I would strongly recommend using 10% per year.

This of course is not a professional estimate, but it is certainly reasonable.

[sprjus4]

Mr. Cartwright's farm [he still owns it] has property on both sides of US-17, it was divided by the relocation project, and he has 3 at-grade intersections [and a 4th near the state line] with breaks in the limited access right-of-way line, they provide him access across the highway as well as to the highway.  VDOT can expect some serious legal opposition if they try to take a major chunk out of his farm, plus serious acquisition expense, so I don't see that is being a feasible alternative.  With most farm equipment you can't accommodate that on a one-lane bridge, so figure a 2-lane bridge with gradual enough earthen roadway approaches so that heavy farm equipment can make it up the grade.

[...]

There are several ways to address the Cartwright Farm, the least expensive way that also gives him full access to his farm and full grade-separated access to US-17 at about the midpoint of his farm, would probably be to build a private paved service road for 3 miles (yeah, that is how big his farm is!) along the east side of the highway and to build a diamond interchange near Number Two Ditch and it would be for his private use.

A basic freeway interchange with a local road would be about $25 million in today's dollars, just for construction.  The overpass without interchange on level terrain would require earthen roadway approach to meet grade and this would be about $10 million in today's dollars, just for construction.

I'm confused which section of farmland you are referring to.

The farmland on either side of US-17 between the North Carolina state line and Ballahack Road is owned by Frank T. Williams. Additionally, the southern mile or so has been subdivided from the main tract and the city has been pursuing it for the development of a mega site known as the Coastal Virginia Commerce Park.

https://www.cityofchesapeake.net/573/Coastal-Virginia-Commerce-Park-Formerly-

Two years ago, the city approved the development of the park and implemented a plan for a grade-separated interchange to be constructed at this location, approximately one mile north of the state line. This interchange must be constructed prior to any development occurring on the site.

And the city (Chesapeake) is planning a mega site development near the North Carolina border, with the prospect of the interstate running alongside it in mind, but is planning to construct an at-grade signalized intersection on rural US-17 using one of the authorized breaks in limited access right of way currently used for farm access.

City Council approved this development last month and according to the latest report, the plan now calls for a grade-separated interchange to be constructed along US-17 for this "megasite" development. This would be located within the first mile or so of US-17 in Virginia just north of the North Carolina state line.

The following improvements will be provided as part of this development:

I. Primary Site Access- A grade-separated interchange will be constructed for the primary development access off Route 17. The final location will be approved by the City and VDOT to insure spacing of roadways consistent with access management plans and principles. These improvements will be constructed and operational prior to the first certificate of occupancy within the development unless approved otherwise by the Director of Development and Permits as a result of an approved TIA. The interchange will include the following:
            i. Sufficient number of lanes on the overpass (grade separation) to provide a LOS D or better.
            ii. Ramp lane quantities, Route 17 mainline diverge and merge lane lengths, and geometry in accordance with a City approved TIA and VDOT criteria. 
            iii. Signalization at the intersection of the access road overpass and the southbound on and off ramps as warranted.
            iv. Accommodations for pedestrian access and connectivity to the greatest extent possible.

In the event you are referring to this tract, south of Ballahack Road, access to the western 220 acres would be made via an interchange at Ballahack Road, and the old alignment of US-17. While mainly a pedestrian / bicycle trail, small portions remain open for local access. This would be the same.

If that access was an issue, the city or state also has the option to buy that portion of farmland out entirely. It is only valued at $858,000, far less expensive than any overpass bridge would cost.

Here is a link to the city's property map.

--

As far as "Cartwright", the only farmland owned by him is between Glencoe St and Ballahack Rd. The eastern side has access provided by Belle Haven St. The western side could similarly be provided access by old US-17, with an interchange at Ballahack Rd, or if access is a concern, could be bought by the city / state. The western 129 acres is valued at $854,000, far less expensive than any overpass bridge would cost.

I'm not sure where a $25 - $30 million price estimate is coming from regarding two tracts that are valued around $1.7 million total.

[bob7374]

Turns out they have begun shoulder widening as part of the repaving work near Nashville. So far the construction has involved shoulders west of NC-58 (Exit 459) east and westbound. I didn't catch where the work began/ended on the western end, but I think it's tied to the current repaving. The press release also does mention shoulder reconstruction.

Westbound between NC-58 (Exit 459) and US-64 Alt/Bus (Exit 458):


Current work west of Exit 458 (westbound)

The NCDOT traffic advisory for the project indicates the right lanes are closed between MM 459 and 455 for the next 2 weeks. The project's western extent is Old Franklin Road, Exit 453, the eastern at Old Carriage Road, Exit 463. Will be interesting to see if the shoulder widening extends to either end.

A new travel advisory has the right lane closed on US 64 West from MM 457 to MM 453 for the rest of the week. Hopefully, shoulder widening is to go all the way to the Old Franklin Road exit.

[Daniel Fiddler]

I have wondered two things about this road personally...

1.  Why I-87?  It's mostly east - west, and does not connect to I-87 in New York, nor do I know of any plans to in the future.  It would be very costly if not downright impossible to upgrade the four lane the tunnels across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge - Tunnel, and I don't think US 13 is access controlled expressway for that two or three miles (partially maybe, but not fully), so that would be expensive as well.  And I am not sure how they will construct a bridge or tunnel to connect Lewes, DE with Cape May, NJ either.  I'd think I-46 or I-48 more appropriate.

2.  When will they designate the remainder of US 64 between Raleigh and Williamston as I-87?  It's already access controlled expressway, and could be designated I-87 unless parts of it do not meet EIHS standards.

[sprjus4]

1.  Why I-87?  It's mostly east - west, and does not connect to I-87 in New York, nor do I know of any plans to in the future.  It would be very costly if not downright impossible to upgrade the four lane the tunnels across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge - Tunnel, and I don't think US 13 is access controlled expressway for that two or three miles (partially maybe, but not fully), so that would be expensive as well.  And I am not sure how they will construct a bridge or tunnel to connect Lewes, DE with Cape May, NJ either.  I'd think I-46 or I-48 more appropriate.

There are no official plans to ever connect the two I-87s.

2.  When will they designate the remainder of US 64 between Raleigh and Williamston as I-87?  It's already access controlled expressway, and could be designated I-87 unless parts of it do not meet EIHS standards.

Controlled access freeway, but not up to interstate standards.

The portion from east of Rocky Mount to Williamston now meets interstate standards, along with some segments west of I-95 now due to resurfacing that included shoulder widening, but a lot of the road in between and through Rocky Mount is not up to standards.

[Bobby5280]

Why I-87?  It's mostly east - west, and does not connect to I-87 in New York, nor do I know of any plans to in the future.

If you haven't noticed, it's fairly common for the Interstate highway system to have two routes carrying the same 2-digit number in different parts of the country. I-87 is just the latest example.

It would be impossible to connect I-76 in Colorado to I-76 in Ohio & Pennsylvania. The same goes for the I-84 and I-86 routes in the Northwest to the ones in the Northeast. I-88 in Illinois can't connect to I-88 in New York.

The I-74 route in North Carolina was originally intended to hook up with existing I-74 in Ohio, but that will probably never happen due to issues in Virginia and West Virginia. The I-74 route in North Carolina may not ever make it to Myrtle Beach either; it would probably make more sense just extending the thing to Wilmington and calling it a day. I have no idea how much of I-73 will ever get built.

I-69 is another route with currently disconnected segments. Intensions are there to ultimately connect the original Indiana route with the partially completed one in Texas. But it's going to be a long damned time before that happens. I-49 is a similar case. I can remember the government opening hundreds of new miles worth of completed Interstate highway every year when I was a kid. They don't do that anymore, thanks to a far different funding setup that puts states more on their own to complete big projects.

Given how slowly other Interstate projects are moving, it's easy to expect progress on the North Carolina version of I-87 to proceed at a glacier pace.

[Daniel Fiddler]

1.  Why I-87?  It's mostly east - west, and does not connect to I-87 in New York, nor do I know of any plans to in the future.  It would be very costly if not downright impossible to upgrade the four lane the tunnels across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge - Tunnel, and I don't think US 13 is access controlled expressway for that two or three miles (partially maybe, but not fully), so that would be expensive as well.  And I am not sure how they will construct a bridge or tunnel to connect Lewes, DE with Cape May, NJ either.  I'd think I-46 or I-48 more appropriate.

There are no official plans to ever connect the two I-87s.

2.  When will they designate the remainder of US 64 between Raleigh and Williamston as I-87?  It's already access controlled expressway, and could be designated I-87 unless parts of it do not meet EIHS standards.

Controlled access freeway, but not up to interstate standards.

The portion from east of Rocky Mount to Williamston now meets interstate standards, along with some segments west of I-95 now due to resurfacing that included shoulder widening, but a lot of the road in between and through Rocky Mount is not up to standards.

Much like how I-22 is or was not to Interstate standards through New Albany?

[sprjus4]

Much like how I-22 is or was not to Interstate standards through New Albany?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QyYpUiB9KR9rg6Ls7

I'd say US-64 through Rocky Mount is certainly in better shape, really only lacking a shoulder - although during recent surfacing, unlike other segments of US-64, they didn't widen the shoulder.

Which that's either due to inconsistency among contracts or potentially foreshadowing a future larger upgrade project.

US-64 through Nashville to the west is a much older facility, with a few mainline bridges needing replacement (such as this, although an ongoing resurfacing through there is widening the shoulders.

I'd say, interstate designation or not, it's a significant safety upgrade adding 10 ft paved shoulders to allow a safe place for a vehicle to stop during an incident, or to redirect traffic, especially on a 70 mph controlled access highway.

[Beltway]

I have wondered two things about this road personally...

1.  Why I-87?  It's mostly east - west, and does not connect to I-87 in New York, nor do I know of any plans to in the future.

Why Interstate at all? With NCDOT's funding problems it will be at least 2050 before it can be completed. Or beyond.

[bob7374]

Much like how I-22 is or was not to Interstate standards through New Albany?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QyYpUiB9KR9rg6Ls7

I'd say US-64 through Rocky Mount is certainly in better shape, really only lacking a shoulder - although during recent surfacing, unlike other segments of US-64, they didn't widen the shoulder.

Which that's either due to inconsistency among contracts or potentially foreshadowing a future larger upgrade project.

US-64 through Nashville to the west is a much older facility, with a few mainline bridges needing replacement (such as this, although an ongoing resurfacing through there is widening the shoulders.

I'd say, interstate designation or not, it's a significant safety upgrade adding 10 ft paved shoulders to allow a safe place for a vehicle to stop during an incident, or to redirect traffic, especially on a 70 mph controlled access highway.

NCDOT's traffic map indicates the right lane of US 64 East is closed today from MM 453 (Old Franklin Rd) to 459 (US 64 Bus.), presumably for more shoulder widening. As was pointed out several bridges and interchanges will have to be modified to become interstate standard. I have a list of needed projects from a NCDOT feasibility study posted on my New/Future I-87 in NC webpage:
https://malmeroads.net/ncfutints/fut87.html

Conceivably, NCDOT could ask for waivers to allow I-87 to be signed from I-95 in Rocky Mount east to Williamston once several improvement projects in the Rocky Mount area are completed. However, these projects were not funded in the Draft 2026-2035 STIP.

[sprjus4]

Conceivably, NCDOT could ask for waivers to allow I-87 to be signed from I-95 in Rocky Mount east to Williamston once several improvement projects in the Rocky Mount area are completed. However, these projects were not funded in the Draft 2026-2035 STIP.

If the recent resurfacing through Rocky Mount had included shoulder widening like the other nearby segments, you could sign I-87 from I-95 to Williamston today (pending FHWA approval of course). The resurfacing east of Rocky Mount to Tarboro included shoulder widening, and east of Tarboro was built to interstate standards.

I imagine the more preferred segment to be signed as I-87 first would be west of I-95 to provide an interstate highway connection between Raleigh and I-95 - but of course that will involve a more costly project to replace those bridges (I count 2 of them).

[The Ghostbuster]

I think they should have gone for a 2di for the corridor in the first place and saved the short-lived Interstate 495 designation for another corridor.

[vdeane]

The I-74 route in North Carolina was originally intended to hook up with existing I-74 in Ohio, but that will probably never happen due to issues in Virginia and West Virginia.

Virginia isn't an issue (they have nothing to build but also no reason to sign I-74 without anything signed in WV), but Ohio is.