Why are Cape Cod residents "obsessed" with wanting ordinal Rte 6 exit numbers?

[kramie13]

I was on the Cape Cod subreddit the other day, and someone was mentioning that traffic leaving the Cape after the July 4 holiday was "backed up to exit 4".  However, there is no exit 4 on Rte. 6 anymore, so I replied to that Redditor's post to inform the user (and other users visiting the site) that the 4th exit after the Sagamore bridge when traveling east on Rte. 6 is actually exit 63.

I got downvoted on Reddit for this post and some folks replied that I was incorrect, and that it's not exit 63, but actually exit 4.

Seriously, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE??? Why do they feel a need for the exits on Rte. 6 to be signed "one, two, three, etc"?  Don't they know that the numbering system allows you to measure how far away your exit is?  If you want to get off at Exit 82 (Rte. 124) and you're passing Exit 68 (Rte. 132), you're 14 miles away from your exit!

Did these residents fail arithmetic growing up?  NOBODY ELSE IN THE OTHER 49 STATES have a problem with distance-based exit numbering.  These folks are all BIG BABIES wanting their Rte. 6 exits to be numbered "one, two, three" etc.  Even 5 years after they've been renumbered they still feel like the Rte. 132 exit MUST be called "Exit 6" instead of "Exit 68".

WHAT GIVES?????????

[1995hoo]

For what it's worth, those aren't ordinal numbers. Ordinal numbers are "first," "second," "third," etc. "One," "two," "three," etc. are cardinal numbers, or in the case of exit numbers the term "sequential" is probably more common.

Ordinal exit numbers would take the form "1st Exit," "2d Exit," etc. That's giving me a rather interesting mental image of the exit tabs.

[kramie13]

There was a character limit for titling this thread.  I meant to say "sequential", but "ordinal" has fewer letters.

[gonealookin]

...
I got downvoted on Reddit for this post and some folks replied that I was incorrect, and that it's not exit 63, but actually exit 4.
...
Seriously, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE???
...
Did these residents fail arithmetic growing up?  NOBODY ELSE IN THE OTHER 49 STATES have a problem with distance-based exit numbering.  These folks are all BIG BABIES wanting their Rte. 6 exits to be numbered "one, two, three" etc.  Even 5 years after they've been renumbered they still feel like the Rte. 132 exit MUST be called "Exit 6" instead of "Exit 68".

WHAT GIVES?????????

What gives is that you're being a roadgeeky perfectionist on a site where people don't give a rat's rear end about the logic behind exit numbering.

You can sneer at them here, but I'd let that stuff pass without comment on other sites.

[Max Rockatansky]

Why are you trying to explain exit numbers and MUTCD anything with the normals?  Did you really expect it would result in a positive outcome for you?  Most people outside this hobby don't give fuck all about things like exit number strategy.

[LilianaUwU]

Don't get me started on redditors' tendency to be confidently incorrect. HOWEVER, don't go "ermm ackchually" on someone's post.

[kphoger]

I was on the Cape Cod subreddit the other day, and someone was mentioning that traffic leaving the Cape after the July 4 holiday was "backed up to exit 4".  However, there is no exit 4 on Rte. 6 anymore, so I replied to that Redditor's post to inform the user (and other users visiting the site) that the 4th exit after the Sagamore bridge when traveling east on Rte. 6 is actually exit 63.

I got downvoted on Reddit for this post and some folks replied that I was incorrect, and that it's not exit 63, but actually exit 4.

The correct response would be to simply post a GSV link:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/apaKs44RQ3LmAAEj6

(BTW, I had no idea where Exit 4/63 might be.  So I pulled up Cape Cod on Google Maps, zoomed in on a random interchange, and it was the right one.)

[jp the roadgeek]

See also: New Hampshire and Vermont.  For years, Chris Sununu resisted switching NH to mileage based exits for cultural reasons.  Vermont has similar sentiments, but compromised with the milepoint exits.  Surprisingly, the resistance has been quiet for the most part among Merritt Parkway patrons. 

[1995hoo]

Why are you trying to explain exit numbers and MUTCD anything with the normals?  Did you really expect it would result in a positive outcome for you?  Most people outside this hobby don't give fuck all about things like exit number strategy.

When I've had that topic come up in other contexts, it's usually been a situation where someone is complaining about states not using sequential numbering because said system is purportedly more "logical." Usually in that situation I've had success in saying, "Yes, it seems logical at first, but it becomes a problem if they add a new exit in between two existing ones because then they either have to re-number all the existing exits with higher numbers or they have to use a letter suffix, like 21A. And then it gets even more screwed-up if they later add another new exit in that same area." (Obviously I'm thinking of the New York Thruway with the 21 -> 21B -> 21A sequence, but that level of detail is too esoteric for the average person.) When I've explained it that way, usually people understand the problem, although some people object that new exists on existing highways are not very common. I suspect those people don't get outside major metropolitan areas all that often, although off the top of my head I can readily think of four exits on the Capital Beltway that did not exist when I was growing up, and one of those used to have a letter suffix due to sequential numbering (the Eisenhower Avenue Connector, old Exit 3A that is now Exit 174).

To be fair, here in Northern Virginia some people understandably find it confusing that an eight-mile stretch of the Beltway uses I-95's exit numbers instead of continuing the Beltway's sequence, and that is a situation where the principle that "if you need Exit Y and you just passed Exit X, you have Y minus X miles to go" doesn't work. (Confused the crap out of my brother-in-law from Arizona when he visited us and he passed Exit 54 and his wife said they needed Exit 173—and I had warned them about it and said not to get misled by the exit numbers!)

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe they are just a bunch of stick-in-the-muds who refuse to acknowledge that times (and in this case, exit numbers) have changed.

[kalvado]

Maybe they are just a bunch of stick-in-the-muds who refuse to acknowledge that times (and in this case, exit numbers) have changed.

Yeah, once those highways with supermagnetic levitation technology and hyperdirectional access ramps were built, a lot things had to be reconsidered.

[1995hoo]

Maybe they are just a bunch of stick-in-the-muds who refuse to acknowledge that times (and in this case, exit numbers) have changed.

Does anybody know how long it's been since the exit numbers changed? I ask because I know when exit numbers have changed on highways I know well, it can take me a while to remember what the new ones are, especially if it's an exit I don't use very often. I still think of Somerset as Exit 10 and Breezewood as Exit 12, for example, simply because I drive on the Pennsylvania Turnpike a lot less often than I used to and I just don't have a reason to remember the new numbers. Perhaps the Cape Cod people are just plain used to the old number and don't remember what the new number is.

[The Ghostbuster]

US 6's exits were renumbered in December 2020, so this December will be five years since the conversion. Since I grew up in a state with mileage-based exit numbers from the get-go, I have no attachment to the exit numbers.

[jmacswimmer]

I also think there's something unique here about the fact that the old exit-number "origin" point (in this case, the MA 3-US 6 interchange at the foot of the Sagamore Bridge) is not also the zero milepost for the route since US 6 is a surface route from the RI-MA line up to this point. I wonder if reception would have been any different if milepost exits had counted up from the Sagamore Bridge versus from the RI-MA line? Probably not, but to play devil's advocate maybe not having as large of a jump in numbering would have "softened the blow".

I also find it interesting that exits 1A-B westbound just after the Sagamore Bridge survived the conversion - are they considered to be based off MA 3's mileage as it begins? It leaves a 55-to-1 jump similar to the Capital Beltway jump mentioned upthread.

[kramie13]

I also find it interesting that exits 1A-B westbound just after the Sagamore Bridge survived the conversion - are they considered to be based off MA 3's mileage as it begins? It leaves a 55-to-1 jump similar to the Capital Beltway jump mentioned upthread.

Yes, the exits just north of the Sagamore Bridge are now based off MA 3's mile markers.  But leaving the Cape, you're still on US 6 when you pass Exit 1A.  Exit 1B is MA 3 exiting itself!  The "loop ramp" to stay on US 6 west is unnumbered!

Even more weird, if you "continue straight" in both directions, you are "taking" exit 1B, which makes no sense whatsoever! 

[kalvado]

I also find it interesting that exits 1A-B westbound just after the Sagamore Bridge survived the conversion - are they considered to be based off MA 3's mileage as it begins? It leaves a 55-to-1 jump similar to the Capital Beltway jump mentioned upthread.

Yes, the exits just north of the Sagamore Bridge are now based off MA 3's mile markers.  But leaving the Cape, you're still on US 6 when you pass Exit 1A.  Exit 1B is MA 3 exiting itself!  The "loop ramp" to stay on US 6 west is unnumbered!

Even more weird, if you "continue straight" in both directions, you are "taking" exit 1B, which makes no sense whatsoever! 

Both sequential and mileage-based exits in theory work great. Real road layouts - with concurrences,  TOTSOs, later changes to roads layout... Well, looks like someone at FHWA got a great solution in search of at least a small problem.

[kphoger]

Both sequential and mileage-based exits in theory work great. Real road layouts - with concurrences,  TOTSOs, later changes to roads layout... Well, looks like someone at FHWA got a great solution in search of at least a small problem.

Yeah, concurrencies and TOTSOs mess things up, don't they?

Heading west on I-70 in Kansas, it's 182 miles from Exit #183 (I-470 WB) to Exit #184 (US-281).

Heading east on I-40 in the OKC area, it's 25 miles from Exit #127 (Radio Rd) to Exit #127 (MLK/Eastern Ave).

[1995hoo]

I also find it interesting that exits 1A-B westbound just after the Sagamore Bridge survived the conversion - are they considered to be based off MA 3's mileage as it begins? It leaves a 55-to-1 jump similar to the Capital Beltway jump mentioned upthread.

Yes, the exits just north of the Sagamore Bridge are now based off MA 3's mile markers.  But leaving the Cape, you're still on US 6 when you pass Exit 1A.  Exit 1B is MA 3 exiting itself!  The "loop ramp" to stay on US 6 west is unnumbered!

Even more weird, if you "continue straight" in both directions, you are "taking" exit 1B, which makes no sense whatsoever!

As to the boldfaced: The loop ramp in that situation is not numbered because you are staying on the same highway and, in the mind of the highway engineers, you are therefore not "exiting." The inverse of that principle applies to "going straight" in a situation where the "main" highway—the one whose exit numbers are in use—branches off. Highway engineers view it that you have to "exit" to go from the "main" highway to a different one.

For an example of that second scenario, see this Street View image from the Capital Beltway. The lanes that are signed as "Exit 170" are not really an "exit" at all in the minds of reasonable motorists. They are, as you say, "going straight"—staying on the Beltway. But in the minds of the VDOT people who signed it, you are "exiting" I-95 onto I-495. For what it's worth, the equivalent location in Maryland does not have the "going straight" movement signed as an "exit." (As you can tell, I think the way Maryland signed it is better because it is not really an "exit" in either case.)

For the Cape Cod situation, based on the Mile 0 milemarker I found in Street View on the southbound side, it appears that Route 3 ends immediately south of that interchange. It seems odd that they would use that route's exit number to denote an "exit" from US-6. It seems like the exit number should be a US-6 exit number because you are "exiting" US-6 onto MA-3.

[kphoger]

Likewise:

I-70 exits the Kansas Turnpike, even though it's the straight-ahead movement.

I-70 is a TOTSO, while straight ahead for I-35/670 is signed as an exit.

[vdeane]

I also find it interesting that exits 1A-B westbound just after the Sagamore Bridge survived the conversion - are they considered to be based off MA 3's mileage as it begins? It leaves a 55-to-1 jump similar to the Capital Beltway jump mentioned upthread.

Yes, the exits just north of the Sagamore Bridge are now based off MA 3's mile markers.  But leaving the Cape, you're still on US 6 when you pass Exit 1A.  Exit 1B is MA 3 exiting itself!  The "loop ramp" to stay on US 6 west is unnumbered!

Even more weird, if you "continue straight" in both directions, you are "taking" exit 1B, which makes no sense whatsoever! 

Both sequential and mileage-based exits in theory work great. Real road layouts - with concurrences,  TOTSOs, later changes to roads layout... Well, looks like someone at FHWA got a great solution in search of at least a small problem.

I don't think this situation is FHWA's fault.  From US 6, 1A should be 54B and 1B should be 54A.  From MA 3, 1A should be 1 and 1B-55 should not be numbered.  MassDOT is just being dumb because they couldn't decide whether it should be numbered based off MA 3 or US 6 so they just said "both", resulting on MA 3 numbers being used on US 6.

What's really weird is that this might not stay with MA: NCDOT wants to do the same thing with I-74 and I-77!

[kalvado]

I also find it interesting that exits 1A-B westbound just after the Sagamore Bridge survived the conversion - are they considered to be based off MA 3's mileage as it begins? It leaves a 55-to-1 jump similar to the Capital Beltway jump mentioned upthread.

Yes, the exits just north of the Sagamore Bridge are now based off MA 3's mile markers.  But leaving the Cape, you're still on US 6 when you pass Exit 1A.  Exit 1B is MA 3 exiting itself!  The "loop ramp" to stay on US 6 west is unnumbered!

Even more weird, if you "continue straight" in both directions, you are "taking" exit 1B, which makes no sense whatsoever! 

Both sequential and mileage-based exits in theory work great. Real road layouts - with concurrences,  TOTSOs, later changes to roads layout... Well, looks like someone at FHWA got a great solution in search of at least a small problem.

I don't think this situation is FHWA's fault.  From US 6, 1A should be 54B and 1B should be 54A.  From MA 3, 1A should be 1 and 1B-55 should not be numbered.  MassDOT is just being dumb because they couldn't decide whether it should be numbered based off MA 3 or US 6 so they just said "both", resulting on MA 3 numbers being used on US 6.

What's really weird is that this might not stay with MA: NCDOT wants to do the same thing with I-74 and I-77!

I am not talking about the way renumbering works locally. I am more talking about desire to break long established patterns for no good reason.
Some people believe newer is better - ask Microsoft about all the changes they make, for example; but a lot of people less than enjoy changes for the sake of change. That may be compared to area code for phone network, where early additions via splits shifted to  mostly overlays. While technology advancement could be an enabling one, there are certainly less intrusive to general population.

[MikeTheActuary]

US 6's exits were renumbered in December 2020, so this December will be five years since the conversion. Since I grew up in a state with mileage-based exit numbers from the get-go, I have no attachment to the exit numbers.

Remember that you're talking about a state that still refers to Route 128 in casual conversation.