Introducing the AARoads Wiki

[chesapeake256]

Question in regards to the wiki: Are pre-Good Roads Movement (i.e. pre-Auto Trail) roads within the scope of the wiki?

The short answer to this is "not usually"; the general cutoff for the wiki is basically the invention of the automobile. That being said, if one of these pre-automobile roads is a clear predecessor of an auto trail or state highway, it would be helpful to briefly cover it in the history section of the relevant automobile road.

The relevant discussion wasn't very long, so it may be worth reading through that to get an idea of where everyone stands on it. That being said, it is a wiki, so if you want to, you could always open a new discussion on The Interchange to see if an adjustment to the scope rules for the particular roads you have in mind might be warranted. Past experience shows that there aren't a lot of people interested in maintaining articles that far back in history, which was probably on most of the commenter's minds, so having someone offering to write and maintain the articles could change the calculus there.

Also, some of the things that we chose not to import were left out because we figured they were at low risk of deletion on Wikipedia. (This is why we didn't import the articles for most bridges and tunnels, for example.) Pre-auto roads probably qualify, since the deletionists are currently targeting articles cited mostly to maps and DOT documentation, whereas pre-auto road articles tend to use other types of sources. If the deletionists start moving in on those articles for other reasons, that would be good cause for the community to re-evaluate whether to include them in the AARoads Wiki.

Additionally, my research of original subdivision plats has led me to discover scanned original road records in several Ohio counties (they seem to typically be held by the county engineer). These records include establishments and alterations of roads ranging in some cases from around the creation of the state in 1803 to the creation of the US Highways in 1926. I was wondering also if I could upload some of these maps.

For the most part, our wiki uses Wikimedia Commons for file hosting, so if it meets Commons' criteria for inclusion (which most of these maps likely would by virtue of copyright having expired, see the Hirtle chart for more information), by all means you should upload it there. (Because we want to keep server space usage to a minimum so as to not draw on Alex's finances any more than we have to, we have local uploading disabled for non-administrators. The only things we have hosted locally are shields which are copyright-encumbered and therefore not accepted by Commons.)

Thank you for the reply. I especially appreciate the link to the copyright chart; on OHM people have repeatedly asked me to post my plats and other maps (over 18,000 of them at my last check) over there, but each time I noted my concerns about potential copyright and legal issues in doing so. I don't recall anyone ever sending me that chart previously in response, so an especially big thank you is in order.

Nonetheless, it does leave me with some questions regarding the precise definitions of its categories, and whether copyright should be assessed at an individual document or group level. I don't know that you're the right person technically to ask on this (if my grandpa who wrote legal manuals in New York was still alive, I'd ask him, but alas...) but in order to post many of these plats I would need to know what the precise definition/scope of 'architectural works' is in a legal sense. I know some plats and maps I have actually include floor plans and designs of the houses that were intended there, so that obviously fits; but are surveyor documents considered architectural in nature? I could see that being the case, and thus me entirely being free to upload all of them (I only have been saving maps from prior to the inauguration of FDR, or more typically before 1930; regardless, all pre-1990). Some road survey documents I have give a complete cross-section of the road, showing the crown angle and materials used; starting in the graded macadam road era, many also give an elevation profile from end to end and other diagrams; these would seem architectural in nature to me, but the legal reality is a different question.

My final question is in regards to what is considered transformative for copyright purposes. Perhaps the paper original surveys are indeed public-domain; but could the scanned copies be considered sufficiently transformative as to place them under new copyright? Perhaps this is a stupid-sounding question, but if this is the case then potentially none of the images could be legal to upload.

I apologize if this is a lot of questions or seems a bit over-the-top in concern, but while Historian Sued For Uploading Old Public Records may certainly be a sympathetic headline, it wouldn't exactly pay my legal bills.

If more than likely I'm in the free and clear on all of the above, I will begin the process of uploading maps once back home in Columbus. (I would also love to stop getting complaints on OHM about the fact that they have to query an annoying database for the map, and often it's more of an art than a science).

Finally, as to potential pre-car pages on the wiki, if I'm given the green light here I can certainly oversee and manage that area if need be. It will be of use to me to add them because I can move my rudimentary data from my annotated map and expand much more upon it. I have more than enough info to get started on important ones like (e.g. in Virginia) the James River & Kanawha Turnpike, Northwestern Turnpike, Staunton & Parkersburg Turnpike, and others. There's a page under WikiProject US Roads-Virginia that someone added years back with a link to Virginia BPW maps and a note that they'd review it later. Those records are a treasure trove, and some maps are so accurately and precisely done it's mind-boggling (especially C. Crozet's maps). To keep the strongest connection to roads of the auto era, perhaps I could prioritize adding macadamized graded roads, which often were the basis of later auto roads. Regardless, the scope I would maintain would be roads ordered by the state or federal government from 1776 to the creation of formal numbered state highways.

[Scott5114]

Nonetheless, it does leave me with some questions regarding the precise definitions of its categories, and whether copyright should be assessed at an individual document or group level. I don't know that you're the right person technically to ask on this (if my grandpa who wrote legal manuals in New York was still alive, I'd ask him, but alas...) but in order to post many of these plats I would need to know what the precise definition/scope of 'architectural works' is in a legal sense. I know some plats and maps I have actually include floor plans and designs of the houses that were intended there, so that obviously fits; but are surveyor documents considered architectural in nature? I could see that being the case, and thus me entirely being free to upload all of them (I only have been saving maps from prior to the inauguration of FDR, or more typically before 1930; regardless, all pre-1990). Some road survey documents I have give a complete cross-section of the road, showing the crown angle and materials used; starting in the graded macadam road era, many also give an elevation profile from end to end and other diagrams; these would seem architectural in nature to me, but the legal reality is a different question.

My final question is in regards to what is considered transformative for copyright purposes. Perhaps the paper original surveys are indeed public-domain; but could the scanned copies be considered sufficiently transformative as to place them under new copyright? Perhaps this is a stupid-sounding question, but if this is the case then potentially none of the images could be legal to upload.

Under United States law, I would not expect the mere act of scanning a document to be transformative enough to attach a new copyright to it. I'm not really knowledgeable about the other ins and outs of copyright on this sort of document; but Commons has a Village Pump/Copyright page where you could probably get a correct-enough answer from someone familiar with how Commons handles such things, and if you specifically refer to the categories on the Hirtle chart in your question, they'll know what you're talking about. (I wouldn't worry too much about getting sued for uploading old documents to Commons—on the off chance that anyone does hold copyright on it and actually care enough to assert their rights, they would just send Commons an email, the offending images would be deleted, you'd probably get a template on your Commons talk page telling you not to do it again, and that'd be the end of it.)

Finally, as to potential pre-car pages on the wiki, if I'm given the green light here I can certainly oversee and manage that area if need be. It will be of use to me to add them because I can move my rudimentary data from my annotated map and expand much more upon it. I have more than enough info to get started on important ones like (e.g. in Virginia) the James River & Kanawha Turnpike, Northwestern Turnpike, Staunton & Parkersburg Turnpike, and others. There's a page under WikiProject US Roads-Virginia that someone added years back with a link to Virginia BPW maps and a note that they'd review it later. Those records are a treasure trove, and some maps are so accurately and precisely done it's mind-boggling (especially C. Crozet's maps). To keep the strongest connection to roads of the auto era, perhaps I could prioritize adding macadamized graded roads, which often were the basis of later auto roads. Regardless, the scope I would maintain would be roads ordered by the state or federal government from 1776 to the creation of formal numbered state highways.

I would say your best bet is to open a discussion at The Interchange (which is the central discussion board where wiki decisions are made) and see what everyone's thoughts on the matter are. As with most wikis, even as a bureaucrat I don't really have any more authority than anyone else over there, and I wouldn't want you to put a bunch of effort in and then find out they're not willing to include what you wrote.