Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

[Beltway]

Given that they are dealing with two nations, and it is funded through a public-private partnership (P3), there were years of legal and political wrangling, especially from the Ambassador Bridge's owner, who fiercely opposed the project, that would account for it taking a long time.
I could cite all three of the Bosphorus Strait bridges -- with no piers in the water.
Here's a list of the main span lengths of the three Bosphorus Strait bridges in feet:
+ 15 July Martyrs Bridge (First Bosphorus Bridge): 3,524 ft
+ Fatih Sultan Mehmet Bridge (Second Bosphorus Bridge): 3,576 ft
+ Yavuz Sultan Selim Bridge (Third Bosphorus Bridge): 4,619 ft
They also have a downtown highway tunnel  and a downtown railroad tunnel under the strait -- those folks don't play!

Give M-85 or M-5 a drive out of downtown Detroit and get back to me on how much MDOT doesn't fuck around.

They have another crossing under construction.

The Great Istanbul Tunnel is one of Turkey's most ambitious infrastructure projects — an undersea marvel designed to connect the European and Asian sides of Istanbul beneath the Bosphorus Strait.

Key Features
+ Length: 6.5 km (4.0 miles), making it the longest Bosphorus tunnel once completed
+ Depth: 110 meters below sea level
+ Diameter: 19 meters, accommodating three levels:
+ Two for road traffic
+ One for metro rail
Transportation Integration
+ Links Istanbul's three airports: Atatürk, Sabiha Gökçen, and Istanbul Airport
+ Connects nine metro lines and 11 other railways
+ Expected to serve 1.3 million passengers daily, with rail capacity of 70,000 passengers per hour per direction
Construction Timeline
+ Announced: 2015
+ Construction began: 2018
+ Expected completion: 2028
Financing and Engineering
+ Estimated cost: $3.5-4 billion
+ Built under a build–operate–transfer model
+ Excavation uses one of the world's largest tunnel boring machines -- 83 meters long and 20 meters wide

This will be Istanbul's third Bosphorus tunnel, following the Marmaray rail tunnel and the Eurasia road tunnel, but it's the first to combine road and rail in a single structure.

https://www.yukselproje.com.tr/en/projects/3-deck-great-istanbul-tunnel

[Max Rockatansky]

Given that they are dealing with two nations, and it is funded through a public-private partnership (P3), there were years of legal and political wrangling, especially from the Ambassador Bridge's owner, who fiercely opposed the project, that would account for it taking a long time.
I could cite all three of the Bosphorus Strait bridges -- with no piers in the water.
Here's a list of the main span lengths of the three Bosphorus Strait bridges in feet:
+ 15 July Martyrs Bridge (First Bosphorus Bridge): 3,524 ft
+ Fatih Sultan Mehmet Bridge (Second Bosphorus Bridge): 3,576 ft
+ Yavuz Sultan Selim Bridge (Third Bosphorus Bridge): 4,619 ft
They also have a downtown highway tunnel  and a downtown railroad tunnel under the strait -- those folks don't play!

Give M-85 or M-5 a drive out of downtown Detroit and get back to me on how much MDOT doesn't fuck around.

They have another crossing under construction.

The Great Istanbul Tunnel is one of Turkey's most ambitious infrastructure projects — an undersea marvel designed to connect the European and Asian sides of Istanbul beneath the Bosphorus Strait.

Key Features
+ Length: 6.5 km (4.0 miles), making it the longest Bosphorus tunnel once completed
+ Depth: 110 meters below sea level
+ Diameter: 19 meters, accommodating three levels:
+ Two for road traffic
+ One for metro rail
Transportation Integration
+ Links Istanbul's three airports: Atatürk, Sabiha Gökçen, and Istanbul Airport
+ Connects nine metro lines and 11 other railways
+ Expected to serve 1.3 million passengers daily, with rail capacity of 70,000 passengers per hour per direction
Construction Timeline
+ Announced: 2015
+ Construction began: 2018
+ Expected completion: 2028
Financing and Engineering
+ Estimated cost: $3.5-4 billion
+ Built under a build–operate–transfer model
+ Excavation uses one of the world's largest tunnel boring machines -- 83 meters long and 20 meters wide

This will be Istanbul's third Bosphorus tunnel, following the Marmaray rail tunnel and the Eurasia road tunnel, but it's the first to combine road and rail in a single structure.

https://www.yukselproje.com.tr/en/projects/3-deck-great-istanbul-tunnel

Nice dodge on Detroit and MDOT.  Certainly took you long enough to reply.

[kphoger]

tunnel boring machines

I've heard those are boring.

[Max Rockatansky]

tunnel boring machines

I've heard those are boring.

This whole thread got all things boring once Beltway started on about his fictional tunnel ideas.

[Plutonic Panda]

Seems like more times than not with a few exceptions, Any new proposal for a tunnel in this country is fictional.

[Henry]

Michigan and Ontario show how bridge a busy shipping channel -- Gordie Howe International Bridge.
Cable-stayed bridge with no piers in the water, 2,900 foot main span, minimizing environmental impact, eliminating the risk of ship collisions.

You do realize that this would be impossible with the new Key Bridge? Ergo, very strong dolphin protection is a must. If this were 1980 when the Sunshine Skyway bridge went down, I'm betting that you would've also argued in favor of a tunnel across Tampa Bay, given how you always say the same is needed here as well.

[Beltway]

Michigan and Ontario show how bridge a busy shipping channel -- Gordie Howe International Bridge.
Cable-stayed bridge with no piers in the water, 2,900 foot main span, minimizing environmental impact, eliminating the risk of ship collisions.

You do realize that this would be impossible with the new Key Bridge? Ergo, very strong dolphin protection is a must. If this were 1980 when the Sunshine Skyway bridge went down, I'm betting that you would've also argued in favor of a tunnel across Tampa Bay, given how you always say the same is needed here as well.

Why is this impossible? What is impossible? What evidence does anyone have that "dolphins" will stop a 100,000+ ton ship? When has it been tested to see if it would work in the real world?

They did consider a tunnel in the 1980s for I-275. They ran a full NEPA EIS where they examined a range of alternatives.

This whole thread got all things boring once Beltway started on about his fictional tunnel ideas.

What is fictional? You can look on Google Maps Satellite View and see the causeways that were built for an outer harbor tunnel in 1970.

Seems like more times than not with a few exceptions, Any new proposal for a tunnel in this country is fictional.

Far from it -- look at the other end of Chesapeake Bay. Three tunnels under construction and three are proposed.

[Max Rockatansky]

Seems like more times than not with a few exceptions, Any new proposal for a tunnel in this country is fictional.

I wouldn't take much that has happened in the last couple pages of this thread seriously.  Beltway is trying to make it all about him and apparently stays up to the middle of the night pondering how to ruin it further.

[Plutonic Panda]

Seems like more times than not with a few exceptions, Any new proposal for a tunnel in this country is fictional.

I wouldn't take much that has happened in the last couple pages of this thread seriously.  Beltway is trying to make it all about him and apparently stays up to the middle of the night pondering how to ruin it further.

And just to be clear I'm not advocating for a tunnel on this particular project. Personally I actually like Bridges because you can see over them and they're scenic. But I don't know enough about this case to know the viability of a tunnel or why it would be better than a bridge.

[plain]

I wouldn't go with a tunnel there at all, just another bridge but with more horizontal clearance, where the main piers/towers are further outside of the shipping channel. Like in more shallow water. HAZMATs need a better route than a trip through downtown or the western side of the beltway.

[PColumbus73]

Bridge protection devices:

- Lots of pool noodles
- Bridge-sized arm floaties
- Wacky inflatable sock things in front of each tower
- Sirens (the mythical ones) when sailors venture off course

[roadman65]

Aren't vessels entering or leaving Port supposed to be piloted by a certified individual working for the Port Authority and not the ship itself?

[1995hoo]

Seems like more times than not with a few exceptions, Any new proposal for a tunnel in this country is fictional.

I wouldn't take much that has happened in the last couple pages of this thread seriously.  Beltway is trying to make it all about him and apparently stays up to the middle of the night pondering how to ruin it further.

And just to be clear I'm not advocating for a tunnel on this particular project. Personally I actually like Bridges because you can see over them and they're scenic. But I don't know enough about this case to know the viability of a tunnel or why it would be better than a bridge.

I seem to recall reading that back in the 1970s, a tunnel was deemed too expensive. If that was true 50 years ago, I'm sure it would be even more the case today. The Fort McHenry Tunnel was built as a tunnel in spite of the expense because of the negative impact on the historic site of a bridge towering over the fort.

[kphoger]

Aren't vessels entering or leaving Port supposed to be piloted by a certified individual working for the Port Authority and not the ship itself?

It was.  Two harbor pilots were on board at the time of the collision.

[jmacswimmer]

Aren't vessels entering or leaving Port supposed to be piloted by a certified individual working for the Port Authority and not the ship itself?

It was.  Two harbor pilots were on board at the time of the collision.

My understanding is the pilots board/disembark south of the Bay Bridge and advise the crew in/out of the port from there (which is why you'll frequently see several ships on anchor to the south while crossing the Bay Bridge eastbound).

Of the two pilots on board, one was in command while the other was a trainee - IIRC, after the power loss the pilot was issuing steering/anchor commands in attempt to avoid allision (a new word I learned as a result of this), and radioed in the mayday to MDTA which gave enough time to stop traffic but not enough time to clear the work crew.

[roadman65]

I'm not saying that a skilled crew of Port pilots could have prevented the ordeal. Just wondering if that particular harbor is the same as many smaller port facilities.

I am though surprised that the entire Upper Chesapeake Bay above the Bay Bridge is part of the local pilot area as well.

Wondering now if Down Bay at the Hampton Roads if another Pilot has to board again to cross through Chesapeake Channel of that Harbor?