Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[roadman65]

Google Street View has the north interchange shown with the abutments to the flyover built.  The image dated 11 months ago.

So it seems fitting by now it would be done.

[Rothman]

Drove over the new flyover today.  Pretty spiffy.

[vdeane]

With the new imagery on Google Street View, I took a look to confirm the milemarkers on I-81 north of Syracuse, and it's... interesting.  Everything from Sandy Creek north is as I'd expect, but heading south from there, it appears to get further and further off from what one would calculate from doing math on the existing mile markers.  It's to the point where I don't know how it will be reconciled along existing I-481, because at that point, everything is 0.5-0.6 miles off, depending on whether you calculate from MP 82 to the south (the last mile marker before existing and new I-81 diverge) and MP 103 (the last one posted on the new set, since Onondaga County hasn't been done yet).  For my exit list, I'm going to measure from the south for existing I-481 and from the north for the remainder of I-81 in Onondaga County, but that leaves some weirdness around exit 96.

That said, the new mile markers are more accurate than the old ones, but unless they're redoing everything to the south, or setting them closer together than they actually are along I-481, it's going to leave a jump somewhere.  The old milemarkers got ahead of themselves in northern Broome County and Cortland County (still do) and then let the actual mileage catch up in Oswego County, so this is just reflective of counting down accurate mileage from the north rather than the south.  This also means that the original mile-based exit numbers for exits 63 and 67 (62 and 66, respectively) were likely right, they just needed to move all the milemarkers.

This will certainly make for an interesting site update this weekend.  Maybe I'll need to do an actual/posted split for I-81 like I do for I-86/NY 17, but that feels like a decision for after when they finish all of them.

[The Ghostbuster]

Are there still any exit numbers on Interstate 81 that have not been converted to mileage-based? Google Maps still shows Interstate 81 having sequential numbers from old Exit 38 northward to the Canadian border.

[cu2010]

None of the exits in Jefferson County have been converted, R7 is taking their dear old time and the home office seems unable to just force them to actually do it.

The exits in Syracuse proper (future BR81) are even more of a dysfunctional confusing mess. When I was there two weeks ago, the conversion was in process...the exits for Syracuse Airport had both the old and new numbers simultaneously!

[vdeane]

With the new imagery on Google Street View, I took a look to confirm the milemarkers on I-81 north of Syracuse, and it's... interesting.  Everything from Sandy Creek north is as I'd expect, but heading south from there, it appears to get further and further off from what one would calculate from doing math on the existing mile markers.  It's to the point where I don't know how it will be reconciled along existing I-481, because at that point, everything is 0.5-0.6 miles off, depending on whether you calculate from MP 82 to the south (the last mile marker before existing and new I-81 diverge) and MP 103 (the last one posted on the new set, since Onondaga County hasn't been done yet).  For my exit list, I'm going to measure from the south for existing I-481 and from the north for the remainder of I-81 in Onondaga County, but that leaves some weirdness around exit 96.

That said, the new mile markers are more accurate than the old ones, but unless they're redoing everything to the south, or setting them closer together than they actually are along I-481, it's going to leave a jump somewhere.  The old milemarkers got ahead of themselves in northern Broome County and Cortland County (still do) and then let the actual mileage catch up in Oswego County, so this is just reflective of counting down accurate mileage from the north rather than the south.  This also means that the original mile-based exit numbers for exits 63 and 67 (62 and 66, respectively) were likely right, they just needed to move all the milemarkers.

This will certainly make for an interesting site update this weekend.  Maybe I'll need to do an actual/posted split for I-81 like I do for I-86/NY 17, but that feels like a decision for after when they finish all of them.

Upon more measuring, I have come to the conclusion that this is indeed the case.  After thinking about it, I plan to do an actual/posted split for Cortland and Onondaga Counties (or at least as far north as NY 481) and revise as necessary once new milemarkers are posted between exits 81 and 102.

[Jim]

It's too bad no other states have ever done a successful conversion to mile-based exit numbers, otherwise New York might have had some examples to follow.

[vdeane]

After thinking about it, I plan to do an actual/posted split for Cortland and Onondaga Counties (or at least as far north as NY 481) and revise as necessary once new milemarkers are posted between exits 81 and 102.

Turns out it's possible to avoid a hard jump by using actual numbering counting down from the north along existing I-481 and being careful with mile figures around the southern interchange.  As such, there is no actual/posted split, though I've kept all the figures for both future and historical I-81 pending the actual posting of milemarkers on I-481 just in case.  Given how this lines up with the exit numbers, I suspect that I won't have to end up changing it much.

[kramie13]

It's too bad no other states have ever done a successful conversion to mile-based exit numbers, otherwise New York might have had some examples to follow.

Massachusetts converted their entire state in under a year (between Oct. 2020 and Aug. 2021).  How was that NOT successful?

[Rothman]

It's too bad no other states have ever done a successful conversion to mile-based exit numbers, otherwise New York might have had some examples to follow.

Massachusetts converted their entire state in under a year (between Oct. 2020 and Aug. 2021).  How was that NOT successful?

There are so many layers to how this response to Jim's post is amusing.

[roadman65]

Saw the control cities on I-481 started changing. A picture showing Binghamton on a SB I-481 pull through was submitted to Freeway Jim on FB recently.

Don't know if that was a mistake made by a poster assuming it's been started as I imagine Binghamton must be used South of Dewitt already.

Basically I'm asking the question. Has it started yet?

[vdeane]

Saw the control cities on I-481 started changing. A picture showing Binghamton on a SB I-481 pull through was submitted to Freeway Jim on FB recently.

Don't know if that was a mistake made by a poster assuming it's been started as I imagine Binghamton must be used South of Dewitt already.

Basically I'm asking the question. Has it started yet?

Define "it".  New signage has been going up for months now, and aside from shields, it's been reflective of how things are going to be, new exit numbers and all.  Pretty much every exit along I-481 and the northern section of I-81 through Syracuse have at least one sign reflective of exit numbers for the future routings of I-81 and Business Loop 81 (and that was back in May, so there's no doubt more now, and many older signs have since been removed).  There's a reason why my exit lists are reflective of the new routes and not the old ones (outside the "historical" lists).

Interestingly, Google Maps is now using the new exit numbers for I-690 the whole way through downtown and to I-481.  As of May, there was only one sign with a new number east of Hiawatha Boulevard - a supplemental sign for future exit 19.

[webny99]

Pretty much every exit along I-481 and the northern section of I-81 through Syracuse have at least one sign reflective of exit numbers for the future routings of I-81 and Business Loop 81 (and that was back in May, so there's no doubt more now, and many older signs have since been removed). 

Exit numbers on BL 81 had never even occurred to me, much less that signage with new exit numbers would already be going up. If the rerouting of I-81 is going to be in effect as soon as construction wraps at the northern/southern BL junctions, we could start seeing new traffic patterns develop before the viaduct even comes down.

[vdeane]

Pretty much every exit along I-481 and the northern section of I-81 through Syracuse have at least one sign reflective of exit numbers for the future routings of I-81 and Business Loop 81 (and that was back in May, so there's no doubt more now, and many older signs have since been removed).

Exit numbers on BL 81 had never even occurred to me, much less that signage with new exit numbers would already be going up. If the rerouting of I-81 is going to be in effect as soon as construction wraps at the northern/southern BL junctions, we could start seeing new traffic patterns develop before the viaduct even comes down.

Especially since construction in Syracuse is already in full swing, making I-690 and I-81 both subject to delays.  Once I-481 is uncorked and the movements are all there, it will be a no-brainer to go around (and it probably already is northbound, maybe even when they're working on the viaduct south of exit 89 and have lane closures there).  Right now there isn't a southbound route through Syracuse that isn't subject to delay, and northbound varies.

[vdeane]

Google Earth is showing new satellite imagery of the project, including construction of new exit 4A on future business loop 81, updated imagery of the southern interchange, progress at exit 3 on I-481, and the eastbound on ramp to I-690 from Crouse Street.  Google Maps is also showing future I-81 north through the northern interchange on its final alignment, which is correct - traffic has been shifted to the NB lanes, though it's down to one lane and is currently functioning as a left exit/entrance.

[roadman65]

I saw the new BL I-81 will be Exit 81 with Downtown Syracuse as a control destination at the south end.

Someone.posted a photo on social media of the new signage NB.   Dewitt is even been replaced with Watertown on I-481.

Only the shields will need replacing when all is completed.

[amroad17]

I have been thinking about why the section of current I-81 between I-690 and the northern I-81/I-481 split does not remain an Interstate Highway.  By renumbering the section Business I-81 (Green I-81), wouldn't this affect the ability to obtain federal funding for maintenance of this section or has this option been done away with?  I read that one of the reasons I-40 was returned to its original routing—other than "driver confusion"—was that the state would have to pay for all maintenance and repairs without any help from the federal government.

This above section of I-81 seems to be within "Interstate standards".  This section could be numbered I-381 because of the following:
    a. It is a spur of I-81. Even though it would connect to I-690 at the south end, numbering this beginning with a "3" has precedence, especially in the Northeast (I-380, I-390, and I-395).
    b. Renumbering this section I-681 would lead to "driver confusion" with I-690. Likewise, renumbering this section to I-881 would lead to the same "driver confusion" with I-81.
    c. This section should not be renumbered I-481 given the 55 year history this number has as the eastern Syracuse "bypass".

I entered this opinion in hopes of reading responses from our New York State members, as well as any of our other members.  Basically, I would like to know if I am partially correct or somewhat off-base as far as the funding issue goes.  I know it will not change what is going to occur, however, I believe it is an opinion worth discussing.

[Rothman]

(personal opinion strongly emphasized)

To be frank, I think the eligibility slipping from 90% to 80% wasn't on NYSDOT's or their consultants' minds when rerouting I-81 -- just coming up with the concept.  I think it was lost in the goal of keeping the resulting routes simple.  I also think there was hesitancy or reluctance to approach AASHTO for 3di designations, whether out of some notion of perceived opposition or just ignorance/lack of experience with the process.

The eligibility question was asked and answered, though, during the EIS development's public outreach, where NYSDOT admitted the eligibility would drop to 80% on BL-81.

[The Ghostbuster]

I agree that numbering existing 81 as Business 81 is likely the best move. If they had gone for the State Highway/Interstate Highway combo common within the state of New York, I would have gone for numbering it Interstate 181/NY 181.

[amroad17]

Thank you for providing information about the eligibility requirements I was not aware of—mainly the 80% vs 90% because of renumbering to a business route.  At least the state doesn't have to pay for all maintenance for that section. 

It still sounds a bit odd to be seeing and mentioning a business Interstate in the Northeastern section of our country.  It kind of feels like a "Carolina" thing to do.  However, renumbering former I-81 to "Green 81" is the simplest way to go.

[vdeane]

I would have loved to see it be I-681 north of I-690 and NY 681 south of I-690.  Alas, they didn't do that, and instead brought business interstates (which I've never really been a fan of in the first place) to New York.  The EIS (or one of the other documents) had a note buried somewhere that it would have cost more to have an interstate, so it appears that something about the freeway north of I-690 won't be meeting interstate standards.  I suspect it might be the lack of freeway/freeway movements for I-690 east to BL 81 north and BL 81 south to I-690 west; those movements were removed from the project at some point, possibly when it went from a boulevard to the "community grid".

(personal opinion)

[webny99]

it appears that something about the freeway north of I-690 won't be meeting interstate standards.  I suspect it might be the lack of freeway/freeway movements for I-690 east to BL 81 north and BL 81 south to I-690 west; those movements were removed from the project at some point, possibly when it went from a boulevard to the "community grid".

Were those movements ever a part of the grid alternative? I only recall them being proposed as part of the viaduct rebuild alternative, as they would have been required should I-81 have remained an Interstate.

[vdeane]

it appears that something about the freeway north of I-690 won't be meeting interstate standards.  I suspect it might be the lack of freeway/freeway movements for I-690 east to BL 81 north and BL 81 south to I-690 west; those movements were removed from the project at some point, possibly when it went from a boulevard to the "community grid".

Were those movements ever a part of the grid alternative? I only recall them being proposed as part of the viaduct rebuild alternative, as they would have been required should I-81 have remained an Interstate.

They were in the boulevard as of the April 2015 Project Scoping Report (see Figure 3-6 on page 50).  It's gone as of the April 2019 Preliminary Draft EIS.

[ARMOURERERIC]

The drop in federal participation will be used as an excuse to not adequately maintain the freeway north of 690, when it starts falling apart, call will be to drop that as well.  Likely whoever is Governor in Albany will consider it a win/win.

[Rothman]

The drop in federal participation will be used as an excuse to not adequately maintain the freeway north of 690, when it starts falling apart, call will be to drop that as well.  Likely whoever is Governor in Albany will consider it a win/win.

Wut.

This is not how capital programming works.

It will still be on the NHS and therefore eligible for NHPP....