What book are you reading, and what do you think of it?

[vdeane]

In any case, you showed your true colors the moment you typed "biological women" and I, for one, will never forget.  Trans women and women who were born with a female soul but got stuck in a male body (and the reverse is true for trans men).  And quite frankly, the reason the powers that be attack trans people so much (under whatever guise they choose) is because the very existence of trans people show that the gendered hierarchy and rigid gender roles they push are a lie.

1.  Forgive my ignorance, but what is the problem with the phrase "biological women"?  To me, your post makes it sound like you think the soul is more biological than the body.  Is there a better way of saying "those who were born with a woman's body"—to encompass both cisgender men and transgender women—than "biological woman"?  If so, than what phrase is better?

2.  I'm not so sure everyone on here even believes in the existence of the soul.

The trans community uses AFAB (assigned female at birth).  "Biological woman" tends to be seen as implying that trans women aren't real woman (especially as the "biological" phrase is seen more often in calling trans women "biological males").  It probably wouldn't have been an issue (and indeed wasn't 10-15 years ago), except for how politically charged things have gotten.

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

It's probably not something one thinks about much if one isn't trans (since, after all, everything would match, so there'd be no dysphoria to provoke thinking about it).  Many trans people fantasize about being able to switch genders from a young age.

[elsmere241]

This week I read Renegades: Born in the USA: Dreams, myths, music by Bruce Springsteen and Barack Obama.

[kphoger]

In any case, you showed your true colors the moment you typed "biological women" and I, for one, will never forget.  Trans women and women who were born with a female soul but got stuck in a male body (and the reverse is true for trans men).

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

It's probably not something one thinks about much if one isn't trans (since, after all, everything would match, so there'd be no dysphoria to provoke thinking about it).  Many trans people fantasize about being able to switch genders from a young age.

I know we've had the conversation before about whether the soul is in fact distinct and separable from the body, and, if so, then which one is the true you.

That is a deep philosophical question that stretches back millennia, to the time of the ancient Greeks.  Certainly you can understand why not everyone would agree with both points:  that (1) the soul is indeed distinct and separable from the body and that (2) the soul is the real you and the body is just its shell.  You can understand why someone wouldn't necessarily agree with both of those points, right?  And if you can, then surely you see how it's less of a slam-dunk than you make it out to be that "trans women and women who were born with a female soul but got stuck in a male body".

And, if a person doesn't believe the same things as you do about the human soul, then don't you see how a term like "assigned female at birth" doesn't make any sense for that person to use?  If, for example, |english si| doesn't believe that the body and soul are separable entities, then it would be nonsensical for him to speak of someone as having been "assigned" a gender based on bodily anatomy that's in conflict with the gender of a person's soul.  And, if he does believe that the body and soul are separable entities, but believes that the physical body defines the real you more than the soul does, then it would be just as nonsensical to use such a term.

So please don't take such a deep and thorny issue as this and make it out to be so black and white and simple.  It isn't.

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

It's probably not something one thinks about much if one isn't trans (since, after all, everything would match, so there'd be no dysphoria to provoke thinking about it).  Many trans people fantasize about being able to switch genders from a young age.

Are you suggesting that our fantasies define our reality?

[vdeane]

I know we've had the conversation before about whether the soul is in fact distinct and separable from the body, and, if so, then which one is the true you.

That is a deep philosophical question that stretches back millennia, to the time of the ancient Greeks.  Certainly you can understand why not everyone would agree with both points:  that (1) the soul is indeed distinct and separable from the body and that (2) the soul is the real you and the body is just its shell.  You can understand why someone wouldn't necessarily agree with both of those points, right?  And if you can, then surely you see how it's less of a slam-dunk than you make it out to be that "trans women and women who were born with a female soul but got stuck in a male body".

And, if a person doesn't believe the same things as you do about the human soul, then don't you see how a term like "assigned female at birth" doesn't make any sense for that person to use?  If, for example, |english si| doesn't believe that the body and soul are separable entities, then it would be nonsensical for him to speak of someone as having been "assigned" a gender based on bodily anatomy that's in conflict with the gender of a person's soul.  And, if he does believe that the body and soul are separable entities, but believes that the physical body defines the real you more than the soul does, then it would be just as nonsensical to use such a term.

So please don't take such a deep and thorny issue as this and make it out to be so black and white and simple.  It isn't.

Going by a strictly body POV, there's still the physical structure of the brain to consider, as it's the center of all human thought (although the rest of the nervous system plays a role too... genitals, not so much).  Personally, I find that a purely physical POV raises uncomfortable questions about whether and how much free will we truly have, but it doesn't change the argument too much with respect to trans people (other than being more complex).

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

It's probably not something one thinks about much if one isn't trans (since, after all, everything would match, so there'd be no dysphoria to provoke thinking about it).  Many trans people fantasize about being able to switch genders from a young age.

Are you suggesting that our fantasies define our reality?

Perhaps not the best phrasing, but "know they are transgender" doesn't work if you don't really know about being transgender as a concept yet.  I'm not quite sure that perfect language even exists for this.

[kphoger]

Going by a strictly body POV, there's still the physical structure of the brain to consider, as it's the center of all human thought (although the rest of the nervous system plays a role too... genitals, not so much).  Personally, I find that a purely physical POV raises uncomfortable questions about whether and how much free will we truly have, but it doesn't change the argument too much with respect to trans people (other than being more complex).

[...] It's probably not something one thinks about much if one isn't trans (since, after all, everything would match, so there'd be no dysphoria to provoke thinking about it).  Many trans people fantasize about being able to switch genders from a young age.

Are you suggesting that our fantasies define our reality?

Perhaps not the best phrasing, but "know they are transgender" doesn't work if you don't really know about being transgender as a concept yet.  I'm not quite sure that perfect language even exists for this.

If we keep drilling down, though, we find that our fantasies are also rooted in the physical structure of our brain.  After all, if it's the center of all human thought, then would other conclusion could there be?  At some point, unless you're prepared to either (a) abandon free will entirely—which I know you're not—or (b) admit that our fantasies define our reality, then you have to draw a line somewhere between "know they are transgender" and "fantasize" while admitting that both are rooted in the physical structure of our brain.

Look, I don't mean to get into this whole debate.  I just wish you wouldn't slam people so hard who come down differently on such a deep and complex issue than you do.

[Scott5114]

I just wish you wouldn't slam people so hard who come down differently on such a deep and complex issue than you do.

Isn't it understandable that someone would have a strong negative reaction to that sort of thing, though? "Just asking questions as a philosophical exercise" is often a lead in to trying to entirely invalidate someone's entire identity. And while trans rights issues are just a fun philosophical debate for someone who is cisgender, it can (and often does) result in a trans person being killed.

[ZLoth]

Finished Inside Jobs: Tales from a Time of Quarantine. This is a short fiction book with three short stories. The first, "The Crimson Parrot", concerns three crooks who are trying to organize a big heist in the early days of Covid, but have extreme difficulty with the online meetings and their families. The second, "The Cape House", concerns two brothers who inherit their father's home and are living in it because of both Covid and what happened in their personal lives. The final one, "Stop Motion", concerns a young woman who is apartment bound, decides to take up some hobbies, and thinks that there was a murder with a neighbor across the street. All three are amusing and are pretty good.

I will be tacking Malaysia Airlines Flight 370: Why It Disappeared - and Why It's Only a Matter of Time Before This Happens Again while my mother and I started The Lion in the Living Room: How House Cats Tamed Us and Took Over the World

[kphoger]

And while trans rights issues are just a fun philosophical debate for someone who is cisgender ...

This is not just a fun philosophical debate for me.  This is personal.

In the recent past, somebody I'm very close to "came out" as transgender.  He had been fantasizing about changing gender from male to female for some time.  He was sure that his physical body did not match the gender of his true identity, he wanted to change his appearance to match, etc.  But that was then.  Now he no longer identifies as transgender, rarely to never fantasizes about changing gender anymore (no more than just an occasional brief passing thought), does not believe that there is any mismatch between his body and his true identity, and considers himself to be completely and totally male.

If some iteration of a man's "being sure of" or "fantasizing about" or "identifying as" being a woman is all it takes to be certain that he was—and I quote—"born with a female soul but got stuck in a male body", then how do you interpret what has happened with this person who is close to me?  Either he was born with a female soul or he wasn't:  his birth was a discrete event that happened in a specific point in the past, unchangeable based on anybody's current feelings or thoughts today.  According to what |vdeane| seems to be suggesting, it would have been morally reprehensible in that more recent past for me to have said—because he identified as transgender at the time—that he wasn't actually born female but trapped in a male body; whereas today—because he does not identify as transgender anymore—it would be morally reprehensible for me to say that he was.

So no, this is not a purely hypothetical thought experiment for me.  Can you not understand why it is untenable for me to live in a world where I am forced to speak in such a way as subjects immutable realities to the ebb and flow of someone else's thoughts and feelings?  Calling that person a "he" in the recent past would have brought fire and brimstone raining down from people like |vdeane| because obviously he was actually born female and only "assigned male" at the time—obviously, that is, merely because he felt that way and said so.  And yet, today, calling him a "he" would be totally acceptable because obviously he was not actually born female—obviously, that is, merely because he feels that way and says so.

This isn't just some game, you're right, and I know it.  This is about the reality of the world we live in, and who the people we love really are.  And that's precisely why I care.

[Scott5114]

In the recent past, somebody I'm very close to "came out" as transgender.  He had been fantasizing about changing gender from male to female for some time.  He was sure that his physical body did not match the gender of his true identity, he wanted to change his appearance to match, etc.  But that was then.  Now he no longer identifies as transgender, rarely to never fantasizes about changing gender anymore (no more than just an occasional brief passing thought), does not believe that there is any mismatch between his body and his true identity, and considers himself to be completely and totally male.

If some iteration of a man's "being sure of" or "fantasizing about" or "identifying as" being a woman is all it takes to be certain that he was—and I quote—"born with a female soul but got stuck in a male body", then how do you interpret what has happened with this person who is close to me?  Either he was born with a female soul or he wasn't:  his birth was a discrete event that happened in a specific point in the past, unchangeable based on anybody's current feelings or thoughts today.  According to what |vdeane| seems to be suggesting, it would have been morally reprehensible in that more recent past for me to have said—because he identified as transgender at the time—that he wasn't actually born female but trapped in a male body; whereas today—because he does not identify as transgender anymore—it would be morally reprehensible for me to say that he was.

Because it is a human experience, I assume you've been in a situation where you were very much looking forward to an experience, maybe even longing for it. Maybe it was a trip of some kind, or meeting someone you admired, or maybe just a certain type of food. And then you got to where you could go on the trip, or meeting the person, or trying the food and...it wasn't at all like you thought it would be when you were longing for it, and you were disappointed. But you couldn't at all have known that without trying it.

That can happen with experiencing what it is like to transition to another gender. It is not very common, because most people who transition will try everything but transitioning first to make absolutely sure they can't get that happiness any other way. But it does happen.

Far more common, though, is that someone would be perfectly happy with transitioning in a vacuum, but they find cannot handle the stress of possibly getting assaulted when they go to the bathroom or walk down the street, or strangers going out of their way to call them disgusting, or call them names, or the mental load of the constant onslaught of politicians abusing them to score cheap political points. So those people end up detransitioning; perhaps in their personal journals or to select trusted people they still identify as transgender but to the rest of the world they pretend they are not transgender just because it makes life easier, at the cost of their own happiness.

We know all of this because we have hard data obtained from people who have researched it.

Unfortunately, I cannot speak to the particulars of soul construction because, well, if I have one, I'd have to break it open and see what's inside it to know how it works, and I'm sort of terrible at putting things back together once I have them apart.

[kphoger]

Let's just end this line of conversation.  Not only is it wildly off topic, but your lengthy and well-thought-out response didn't even answer the question I attempted to ask.  I'm happy to move this into the world of PMs if anyone is interested but, otherwise, let's get back to books.

[Molandfreak]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

Ping a mod and flag several dozen posts in intervals of 60 seconds. 

[Roadgeekteen]

Just letting you guys know in case you are wondering, my view on the subject is that I don't care about other people do because it has no impact on me. I have my own personal opinions on gender but if you don't share them idc.

[vdeane]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

[LilianaUwU]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

If they even try something on me, a Canadian citizen, for being transgender, I WILL make it a diplomatic crisis.

[LilianaUwU]

For Rowling it's mostly been about womens' rights and safety

No the fuck it hasn't.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

oh gosh I hope we can all disagree with this

[LilianaUwU]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

oh gosh I hope we can all disagree with this

Yes, I will disagree that people should be put on a watchlist for their gender identity.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

oh gosh I hope we can all disagree with this

Yes, I will disagree that people should be put on a watchlist for their gender identity.

That should be obvious. I mean it should be, who freaking knows these days.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

oh gosh I hope we can all disagree with this

Yes, I will disagree that people should be put on a watchlist for their gender identity.

That should be obvious. I mean it should be, who freaking knows these days.

If this quote pyramid keeps up we'll all be on the surveillance list of every goat in Alanland.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

oh gosh I hope we can all disagree with this

Yes, I will disagree that people should be put on a watchlist for their gender identity.

That should be obvious. I mean it should be, who freaking knows these days.

If this quote pyramid keeps up we'll all be on the surveillance list of every goat in Alanland.

I wonder, what is the longest AAroads quote pyramid? Is there a way to determine this? I recall the mods shutting some down before they get too long.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm also still trying to figure out how a person can possibly know what gender their soul is.  I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I have some tingly 'man' sensation inside my soul.  As my wife once put it, "I wish someone would tell me what it feels like inside to be a girl, because I've been a girl for more than forty years and I have no idea what they're talking about."

There isn't a straightforward answer, because the experiences of trans or gender nonconforming folks are varied. Some know from an early age that something is wrong because the societal expectations that go along with their assigned gender at birth don't match what they feel naturally drawn to. Others figure out later in life through crossdressing or other methods of experiencing the world differently. The latter group is more likely to identify as nonbinary, genderfluid, or something similar that doesn't match the "traditional" methods of gender expression, while the former group is more likely to identify as binary transgender. That isn't always the case, since the childhood experiences of individuals vary greatly based on how many traditional gender roles they are exposed to via their parents, schools, or other folks around them. Another factor is simply societal pressure to fit in, and once they find a group of folks that are more accepting of however they choose to present/express themselves, they will feel more comfortable doing so.

Just as figuring out religious/spiritual belonging, a good job match, or a good relationship match are deeply personal and often don't have one specific "a-ha!" moment where everything clicks, gender identity can involve similar internal questioning, conflict, and experimentation.

We can argue this topic all day, but I do think this is getting off topic and should be split into it's own thread.

Honestly this was probably the most interesting conversation to have come out this thread.  All the same Kyle wanted to whoa it down already, so why are you stringing this along?

I'm perfectly fine with having this conversation, but at this point is should be in a different thread. But I'm fine with keeping it in here it's not that big of a deal.

I mean, we kinda are getting close to politics on it.  A split might also want to take into consideration whether we'd end up on a FBI watch list.

oh gosh I hope we can all disagree with this

Yes, I will disagree that people should be put on a watchlist for their gender identity.

That should be obvious. I mean it should be, who freaking knows these days.

If this quote pyramid keeps up we'll all be on the surveillance list of every goat in Alanland.

I wonder, what is the longest AAroads quote pyramid? Is there a way to determine this? I recall the mods shutting some down before they get too long.

I want to say there is a cap limit at which older posts drop off?