WWTF is going on with Truck Drivers

[kphoger]

Another issue could be immigrant drivers who are not familiar with feet and inches. A flatbed driver has a different load several times per week, so they need to take a close look at their loading height compared to van trailers.

It's just hard to imagine that, if you're driving a truck hauling a big tall thing on the trailer, that feet and inches wouldn't be the absolute FIRST thing to figure out.

What I do have a problem with is states giving out CDLs to underqualified drivers (many of whom are illegal migrants) who don't understand American road rules and may not be able to effectively communicate with police and/or other drivers in case of an accident. The color of one's skin or that person's culture has nothing to do with that. It seems to me that at least part of the real issue is that, due to the increased demand for trucking, states have given out CDLs to underqualified drivers (many of whom are illegal immigrants legitimately looking for a job, to no real fault of their own), which has led to unnecessary crashes and deaths.

Then it has nothing to do with the drivers being immigrants at all.  Unless, that is, you're claiming that these states are making the standards stricter for native-born Americans to get a CDL than they make it for immigrants.  If states are giving out CDLs to people who don't understand the laws well enough to deserve one, then that's a CDL testing problem, not an immigration problem.  So why bring up their immigration status at all?

I'm pretty sure the US citizenship test doesn't have anything on it at all about feet and inches.

Also, take Webb County, TX.  40% to 50% of the population of Webb County speaks English "less than very well" according to census data, yet only about 25% of the population is foreign-born.  This means that there is a sizeable segment of the population there who were born in this country but "may not be able to effectively communicate with police and/or other drivers in case of an accident".  Again, this is not an immigration thing.

Another issue could be immigrant drivers who are not familiar with feet and inches. A flatbed driver has a different load several times per week, so they need to take a close look at their loading height compared to van trailers.

That day-to-day variability in load height, and the need to take a close look at it, is true whether somebody understands feet and inches or not.  I can understand feet and inches perfectly or hardly at all but, if I'm not regularly checking my load height, then it doesn't matter.  And I don't care what measurement system a country uses:  if your load is x units, then you won't fit under any bridges with clearance greater than x.

[Quillz]

Sounds like a lot of these issues could be solved if the trucking companies paid better, trained better, and provided an overall better standard. History has shown if you treat people well, if you provide them a sound living, they will want to work and do a great job.

But, you know, that kind of eats into the profits of the trucking companies. And those yachts don't buy themselves.

[kalvado]

If states are giving out CDLs to people who don't understand the laws well enough to deserve one, then that's a CDL testing problem, not an immigration problem.  So why bring up their immigration status at all?

I suspect it's about states willingness to bend the rules. Back in the day, at least in NY, driver license for temporary immigrants were no different, but overall process included thing like SSN, passport, birth certificate - so one had to be legal immigration wise when license was issued.
After 9-11 rules started to tighten, like visa expiration being expiration of license. And an escape path was created. CA started to issue licenses for those who could not prove status. And Mexican consulates were giving out some non-passport IDs to help with that.
I suspect it ended up with testing for both general license and CDL slashed in the name of non discrimination etc etc.

[kphoger]

I suspect

oh ok lol

[Jim]

When the Glenridge Road overpass near here takes its monthly hit and rips apart yet another truck (I believe the bridge is pretty much undefeated in these battles), you can count on the news story reporting that the driver just said they were following the GPS...  And that the law enforcement and government officials make yet another statement that trucks should not blindly follow consumer-level GPS.

[kalvado]

I suspect

oh ok lol

One more data point - back in the day NY allowed general license test to be taken in few other languages. English test was significantly easier.
Whatever it's worth.

[Scott5114]

If states are giving out CDLs to people who don't understand the laws well enough to deserve one, then that's a CDL testing problem, not an immigration problem.  So why bring up their immigration status at all?

I suspect it's about states willingness to bend the rules. Back in the day, at least in NY, driver license for temporary immigrants were no different, but overall process included thing like SSN, passport, birth certificate - so one had to be legal immigration wise when license was issued.
After 9-11 rules started to tighten, like visa expiration being expiration of license. And an escape path was created. CA started to issue licenses for those who could not prove status. And Mexican consulates were giving out some non-passport IDs to help with that.
I suspect it ended up with testing for both general license and CDL slashed in the name of non discrimination etc etc.

I suspect it's because Darcy Ptarmigan, a schoolteacher in Ormsby County, Nevada, once tripped and fell down a set of stairs and broke one of the heels of her shoes, which she purchased for a dollar twenty at a musical record outlet in downtown Pasadena, California. (The heels, that is, not the shoes.) I suspect she then yelled out "God damn immigrants!" because she couldn't think of anyone else to blame for her own actions. I suspect she was then accosted by wave after wave of rich men in three-piece Italian suits cramming check after check for ten dollars and seventeen cents into her mouth because she was doing them a favor by providing a scapegoat they could blame for various misdeeds they had committed.

I suspect that as long as someone prefaces whatever random stuff they make up out of whole cloth with "I suspect", they expect they can get away with making it sound plausible, since nobody can really prove that it did or didn't happen, and even if they could they can just say they never believed it, they just suspected. I suspect that it's a tactic that comes in handy when you're a bullshitter.

[Road Hog]

Not all immigrant drivers are Skeery Messkins.

https://www.foxnews.com/story/fiery-crash-kills-10-on-texas-highway

[kphoger]

Not all immigrant drivers are Skeery Messkins.

https://www.foxnews.com/story/fiery-crash-kills-10-on-texas-highway

Nothing like a 21-year-old news story to really drive a point home.

[kalvado]

Not all immigrant drivers are Skeery Messkins.

https://www.foxnews.com/story/fiery-crash-kills-10-on-texas-highway

Nothing like a 21-year-old news story to really drive a point home.

It still makes an interesting point about language, where they had to find an interpreter to charge the driver.
I wonder which language was used for testing.. NY has handbook in 4 languages, TX only in English. But translation is easy these days. But written exam may still be available only in a few languages. But TX uses third party testing, and who knows what they can do....

[hbelkins]

https://www.wdrb.com/news/5-louisville-residents-face-federal-charges-for-selling-illegal-drivers-licenses-to-immigrants/article_00547934-7a24-4ec7-9710-99e25e5d2cb9.html

[kphoger]

https://www.wdrb.com/news/5-louisville-residents-face-federal-charges-for-selling-illegal-drivers-licenses-to-immigrants/article_00547934-7a24-4ec7-9710-99e25e5d2cb9.html

I searched the article for {commercial} and {CDL} and came up with nothing.

But I did find this in a Google search:
https://www.freightwaves.com/news/florida-arrests-eight-for-drivers-license-fraud-targeting-illegal-migrants

[michravera]

My theory: truck driving jobs have grown so bad that various trucking companies have run-off all their better qualified drivers. They have been employing illegal migrants as drivers. With the crackdown on immigration the trucking companies are having to hire whatever suckers they can manage to get behind the wheel.

Undoubtedly this is at least a factor. With all the high-profile accidents involving migrant truckers who are not aware of the laws of the road in the USA, I would expect that a lot of these sign strikes are as a result of either their bad driving or unqualified bad replacements for those migrant drivers.

I read it differently.  Immigrants driving trucks is nothing new.  That's been a thing for decades.  But most of those immigrant truckers were good drivers.  If they're being run off the job, then the positions are being filled by non-immigrant but less-qualified drivers, and accidents are to be expected.

I wonder how long would it take for someone driving around the country to pick up at least some basic English and non-metric units?
Because, you know, English proficiency is one of sour points about foreign drivers.
Bridge hits due to (obviously) general purpose GPS vs truck specific ones are an easy one. But inability to interpret 10'6" is another interesting point. I didn't believe in idea when that was originally brought up, but thinking about it...

There are legitimate reasons to have truck drivers who are foreign, particularly Canadian and Mexican. Native or foreign, truck drivers should be able to read clearance signs. It might help, if we used the international version and showed it in metric as well as customary units. But, what could it hurt, if we put up a bumper, preferably of some soft but loud material (and maybe even 300 mm or one foot too low) far enough in advance of the low bridge to cause a visual as well as auditor warning that trouble was imminent. Metric signs in Spanish (especially in the southwest) and French (especially in the northeast) couldn't hurt either. Better to hit a low hanging bumper and be warned than to get caught (or, worse yet destroy) a bridge. This should be for any bridge below the standard minimum height (16' = 4.88 m in California). California, at least on I-5, posts signs WELL in advance of lower bridges. Some of them contain oddly specific distances.

[kalvado]

My theory: truck driving jobs have grown so bad that various trucking companies have run-off all their better qualified drivers. They have been employing illegal migrants as drivers. With the crackdown on immigration the trucking companies are having to hire whatever suckers they can manage to get behind the wheel.

Undoubtedly this is at least a factor. With all the high-profile accidents involving migrant truckers who are not aware of the laws of the road in the USA, I would expect that a lot of these sign strikes are as a result of either their bad driving or unqualified bad replacements for those migrant drivers.

I read it differently.  Immigrants driving trucks is nothing new.  That's been a thing for decades.  But most of those immigrant truckers were good drivers.  If they're being run off the job, then the positions are being filled by non-immigrant but less-qualified drivers, and accidents are to be expected.

I wonder how long would it take for someone driving around the country to pick up at least some basic English and non-metric units?
Because, you know, English proficiency is one of sour points about foreign drivers.
Bridge hits due to (obviously) general purpose GPS vs truck specific ones are an easy one. But inability to interpret 10'6" is another interesting point. I didn't believe in idea when that was originally brought up, but thinking about it...

There are legitimate reasons to have truck drivers who are foreign, particularly Canadian and Mexican. Native or foreign, truck drivers should be able to read clearance signs. It might help, if we used the international version and showed it in metric as well as customary units. But, what could it hurt, if we put up a bumper, preferably of some soft but loud material (and maybe even 300 mm or one foot too low) far enough in advance of the low bridge to cause a visual as well as auditor warning that trouble was imminent. Metric signs in Spanish (especially in the southwest) and French (especially in the northeast) couldn't hurt either. Better to hit a low hanging bumper and be warned than to get caught (or, worse yet destroy) a bridge. This should be for any bridge below the standard minimum height (16' = 4.88 m in California). California, at least on I-5, posts signs WELL in advance of lower bridges. Some of them contain oddly specific distances.

And can we switch to km-based exit numbers, while we're at this?

[kphoger]

And can we switch to km-based exit numbers, while we're at this?

As someone who lives in the part of the country where section line roads are the norm, and therefore mile markers correspond to the road grid, I'm against metric exit numbers.

[michravera]

My theory: truck driving jobs have grown so bad that various trucking companies have run-off all their better qualified drivers. They have been employing illegal migrants as drivers. With the crackdown on immigration the trucking companies are having to hire whatever suckers they can manage to get behind the wheel.

Undoubtedly this is at least a factor. With all the high-profile accidents involving migrant truckers who are not aware of the laws of the road in the USA, I would expect that a lot of these sign strikes are as a result of either their bad driving or unqualified bad replacements for those migrant drivers.

I read it differently.  Immigrants driving trucks is nothing new.  That's been a thing for decades.  But most of those immigrant truckers were good drivers.  If they're being run off the job, then the positions are being filled by non-immigrant but less-qualified drivers, and accidents are to be expected.

I wonder how long would it take for someone driving around the country to pick up at least some basic English and non-metric units?
Because, you know, English proficiency is one of sour points about foreign drivers.
Bridge hits due to (obviously) general purpose GPS vs truck specific ones are an easy one. But inability to interpret 10'6" is another interesting point. I didn't believe in idea when that was originally brought up, but thinking about it...

There are legitimate reasons to have truck drivers who are foreign, particularly Canadian and Mexican. Native or foreign, truck drivers should be able to read clearance signs. It might help, if we used the international version and showed it in metric as well as customary units. But, what could it hurt, if we put up a bumper, preferably of some soft but loud material (and maybe even 300 mm or one foot too low) far enough in advance of the low bridge to cause a visual as well as auditor warning that trouble was imminent. Metric signs in Spanish (especially in the southwest) and French (especially in the northeast) couldn't hurt either. Better to hit a low hanging bumper and be warned than to get caught (or, worse yet destroy) a bridge. This should be for any bridge below the standard minimum height (16' = 4.88 m in California). California, at least on I-5, posts signs WELL in advance of lower bridges. Some of them contain oddly specific distances.

And can we switch to km-based exit numbers, while we're at this?

Without objection, it is so ordered.

[Big John]

^^ I-19 has a word to say.

[vdeane]

And can we switch to km-based exit numbers, while we're at this?

As someone who lives in the part of the country where section line roads are the norm, and therefore mile markers correspond to the road grid, I'm against metric exit numbers.

How many surface roads have mile markers?  I'm not really sure why interstates would need to have mile markers that line up with section line roads.  Not that US or state routes are straight enough to 1:1 correspond either (although US 183 looks awfully Pythagorean here).

[kphoger]

How many surface roads have mile markers?  I'm not really sure why interstates would need to have mile markers that line up with section line roads.  Not that US or state routes are straight enough to 1:1 correspond either (although US 183 looks awfully Pythagorean here).

Sorry, I knew that logic would get lost.  Let me explain.

1.  When driving in these parts, it is very common to keep track of miles by counting section-line roads.  If I know I have six miles before my turn, then I start counting section-line crossroads until I get to six.

2.  On highways with mile markers, it makes sense for the mile markers to line up with that grid.  Obviously, diagonal highways can throw this off, but most stretches of highway are not diagonal.  If I know I have six miles before my turn—also known as six section-line crossroads—before my turn, and I see mile marker 126, then I can expect my turn to be somewhere around mile marker 120 or 132.

3.  I think it would be weird for mile markers on Interstates to work differently than mile markers on surface highways.

[Scott5114]

Without objection, it is so ordered.

Point of order, Mr. Speaker: the gentleman from Kansas did object prior to the chair's ruling and therefore there is no unanimous consent on the motion laid upon the table.

How many surface roads have mile markers?  I'm not really sure why interstates would need to have mile markers that line up with section line roads.  Not that US or state routes are straight enough to 1:1 correspond either (although US 183 looks awfully Pythagorean here).

Sorry, I knew that logic would get lost.  Let me explain.

1.  When driving in these parts, it is very common to keep track of miles by counting section-line roads.  If I know I have six miles before my turn, then I start counting section-line crossroads until I get to six.

2.  On highways with mile markers, it makes sense for the mile markers to line up with that grid.  Obviously, diagonal highways can throw this off, but most stretches of highway are not diagonal.  If I know I have six miles before my turn—also known as six section-line crossroads—before my turn, and I see mile marker 126, then I can expect my turn to be somewhere around mile marker 120 or 132.

3.  I think it would be weird for mile markers on Interstates to work differently than mile markers on surface highways.

That and exit numbers are more or less arbitrary anyway. We've decided that they are based on mile distances because that is both convenient for maintenance (allows more exits to be easily added later) and provides the added bonus that travelers can compute distances between exits. But the main purpose is to simply identify an exit.

Changing them to km-posts doesn't really aid in the identify-exits thing (I guess it would make A-B exits ⅝ as common?), as well as making them less convenient (how many people know what a kilometer actually is?).

Adding meter heights to overpasses—in addition to feet and inches—would just be an unambiguous improvement. (I guess you could argue that it adds to message loading, but there generally aren't many messages on bridges other than the height and maybe the name of the thing it's carrying if your DOT likes identifying that.)

[vdeane]

How many surface roads have mile markers?  I'm not really sure why interstates would need to have mile markers that line up with section line roads.  Not that US or state routes are straight enough to 1:1 correspond either (although US 183 looks awfully Pythagorean here).

Sorry, I knew that logic would get lost.  Let me explain.

1.  When driving in these parts, it is very common to keep track of miles by counting section-line roads.  If I know I have six miles before my turn, then I start counting section-line crossroads until I get to six.

2.  On highways with mile markers, it makes sense for the mile markers to line up with that grid.  Obviously, diagonal highways can throw this off, but most stretches of highway are not diagonal.  If I know I have six miles before my turn—also known as six section-line crossroads—before my turn, and I see mile marker 126, then I can expect my turn to be somewhere around mile marker 120 or 132.

3.  I think it would be weird for mile markers on Interstates to work differently than mile markers on surface highways.

I mean, there's also stuff like this.  My sense looking at a map is that the most major roads are the ones that are the least likely to be straight as an arrow for more than a few miles at a time.  And how many places have mile markers on non-freeways anyways?  The only examples I can think of off the top of my head that aren't in New Jersey or Nevada are Overseas Highway and a couple parkways that are a mix of interchanges and at-grades (also technically NY 17 still, given Hale Eddy); I'm not counting things like reference markers and postmiles that only roadgeeks are capable of deciphering and might not match current route alignments.

Changing them to km-posts doesn't really aid in the identify-exits thing (I guess it would make A-B exits ⅝ as common?), as well as making them less convenient (how many people know what a kilometer actually is?).

It would certainly be a godsend for reducing alphabet soup in places like the northeastern urban centers.  Not a silver bullet, however (it isn't even in Canada; both Ontario and Québec have at least one suffixed exit that isn't a case of multiple ramps at the same interchange).

That and exit numbers are more or less arbitrary anyway. We've decided that they are based on mile distances because that is both convenient for maintenance (allows more exits to be easily added later) and provides the added bonus that travelers can compute distances between exits. But the main purpose is to simply identify an exit.

I wonder if this is why most of Europe is still sequential.  Not only do I get the sense that exit numbers, like route numbers, are simply much less important over there, I'm curious if they're also less likely to add exits after the fact due to being less prone to new development in the form of sprawl.

[LilianaUwU]

And can we switch to km-based exit numbers, while we're at this?

As someone who lives in the part of the country where section line roads are the norm, and therefore mile markers correspond to the road grid, I'm against metric exit numbers.

Well, most of the prairie provinces have mile based grids, and yet it works.

[kphoger]

I mean, there's also stuff like this.

As I said, most stretches of highway are not diagonal.  In that same area, consider US-50, which, other than a couple of railroad overpasses, is a straight shot from Hutch to Newton.  Or K-14 south of Hutch.  Or US-54 from Kingman to Pratt.  But especially where I grew up in western Kansas, you've got nearly-straight stuff like this.  Sure, it doesn't work out exactly on every road, but it's useful.

Where I grew up, we referred to this as "seven mile hill" because it started seven miles after leaving town.  I had a friend who lived on a farm several miles off the highway in that area, and I had a hard time remembering how to get to her farm.  Back then, the rural roads weren't even named.  But all I had to remember was to turn at the last road before seven mile hill.  So I'd simply watch the odometer for six miles, and there was my turn.

My sense looking at a map is that the most major roads are the ones that are the least likely to be straight as an arrow for more than a few miles at a time.

And it's the minor ones where I'm most likely to be on the hunt for an obscure turn-off.

And how many places have mile markers on non-freeways anyways?

Huh?  A lot of places, at least in this part of the country.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/55jjq66PYs4LPee28
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KX3UPTeYaXQg22Dy5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/cLqZmHaV2WQbUtme6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KtdUi5fMoD1tCRa56

Well, most of the prairie provinces have mile based grids, and yet it works.

"Works."  But is less useful in the way I've described.  If someone lives five section-line roads away from yours, you can't simply watch for five mile markers or check the odometer for five miles.

I think that, if the system of measurement bears less resemblance to the physical layout of the roads, then that system is less useful.  We could have Smoot-based mile markers, and they would "work", but they wouldn't be as useful.

[kalvado]

"Works."  But is less useful in the way I've described.  If someone lives five section-line roads away from yours, you can't simply watch for five mile markers or check the odometer for five miles.

Yeah, life was tough without GPS...

[kphoger]

Yeah, life was tough without GPS...

Was?

I've never had a car with sat-nav directions.