Pennsylvania needs county roads.

[PenguinXL2]

PennDOT should invest in county roads... If they ever do , then PA would possibly be my best state for roads.

[Alps]

This speaks to a broader topic, since many other states have few or no county roads, especially in this area (Maryland, Virginia, NC, WV). My experience is that when the counties stay on top of maintenance (New York, for example), it can be a great thing. Maintenance dollars are collected and spent locally, local priorities are taken care of, and decisions are made on an appropriate level. State agencies have more overhead and dollars can get spread around. Many states with few or no county roads just don't have enough funding trickling down to the smallest roads, which suffer greatly as a result. Most states with county roads have superior back roads to the state-maintenance-only ones.

[empirestate]

They have some. Luzerne County, in particular, has a bunch.

[hbelkins]

This speaks to a broader topic, since many other states have few or no county roads, especially in this area (Maryland, Virginia, NC, WV). My experience is that when the counties stay on top of maintenance (New York, for example), it can be a great thing. Maintenance dollars are collected and spent locally, local priorities are taken care of, and decisions are made on an appropriate level. State agencies have more overhead and dollars can get spread around. Many states with few or no county roads just don't have enough funding trickling down to the smallest roads, which suffer greatly as a result. Most states with county roads have superior back roads to the state-maintenance-only ones.

Not in Kentucky. A lot of our rural county roads are in atrocious shape, and that's with the state providing money directly to the counties for maintenance. It's true that a lot of the West Virginia county routes and Virginia secondary routes would be four-digit rural secondary routes if they were in Kentucky, but I'll take the quality of a lot of them that I've traveled over a lot of the county roads in my state.

[jemacedo9]

Montgomery County has some, too...but they're not marked or numbered.  Swamp Pike, and the non-state portions of Ridge Pike and Germantown Pike are a few.

I always thought of the quadrant routes as kinda county routes.  I wish they were signed better with some sort of reassurace marker, vs the little segment signs.  Especially when a lot of press releases refer to the SR number, as well as online mapping.  Why (ignoring the expenses it would take) couldn't PA use the blue pentagon shield with the 4-digit SR number?  Or even just a white rectangle?

[Doctor Whom]

This speaks to a broader topic, since many other states have few or no county roads, especially in this area (Maryland, Virginia, NC, WV). My experience is that when the counties stay on top of maintenance (New York, for example), it can be a great thing. Maintenance dollars are collected and spent locally, local priorities are taken care of, and decisions are made on an appropriate level. State agencies have more overhead and dollars can get spread around. Many states with few or no county roads just don't have enough funding trickling down to the smallest roads, which suffer greatly as a result. Most states with county roads have superior back roads to the state-maintenance-only ones.

Maryland has plenty of county roads, since in unincorporated areas (i.e., most of the state), counties maintain all public roads that are not numbered highways or federal parkways.

[Mr_Northside]

There might be some counties that don't have any roads they're responsible for, but I think most do.  Allegheny County is pretty consistent with green signs for road names (as opposed to blades) and ones that say either "begin" or "End " "county maintenance".

[connroadgeek]

None here in Connecticut, though we don't have counties (that are more than lines drawn on a map) to do that sort of thing.

[dgolub]

None here in Connecticut, though we don't have counties (that are more than lines drawn on a map) to do that sort of thing.

Yeah, Connecticut could benefit from county routes as well.  To be fair, Connecticut has a fairly dense state route network, so maybe some of the state routes would get downgraded to county routes and some of the town roads would be upgraded.

The counties of Nassau and Westchester in New York could benefit from signed county routes, and the latter could benefit from a major renumbering as well.

[ixnay]

There might be some counties that don't have any roads they're responsible for, but I think most do.  Allegheny County is pretty consistent with green signs for road names (as opposed to blades) and ones that say either "begin" or "End " "county maintenance".

"Blades"?  What are they?

ixnay

[ixnay]

So, if PA goes down the (signed) county road, er, road, should they be signed with pentagonal Sunoco color signs like in NJ and a few counties in NY, and some other states?

Would there be signed county roads within cities, boroughs, the town of Bloomsburg, and the "town" of McCandless, or just within townships?  Within urban/suburban areas or just in rural areas.  NJ has signed county roads in urban/suburban areas as well as in cities and boroughs.

Would signs be white circles like in VA?

White circles at the end of a green sign like in WV?

Oh, and MD should have signed county roads.  DE used to have plenty of signed CR's but they were marked by small goldenrod signs, and only at intersections.

ixnay

[connroadgeek]

Yeah, Connecticut could benefit from county routes as well.  To be fair, Connecticut has a fairly dense state route network, so maybe some of the state routes would get downgraded to county routes and some of the town roads would be upgraded.

The counties of Nassau and Westchester in New York could benefit from signed county routes, and the latter could benefit from a major renumbering as well.

Connecticut does have a pretty dense network. I think the unsigned state roads network is kind of like the roads that would be county maintained if the state had county governments because many of the main local roads are state maintained but unsigned even on maps. I also thought part of the reason for higher taxes in our neighbor to the west was because they have county governments and things like county police and roads.

[Alps]

None here in Connecticut, though we don't have counties (that are more than lines drawn on a map) to do that sort of thing.

Yeah, Connecticut could benefit from county routes as well.  To be fair, Connecticut has a fairly dense state route network, so maybe some of the state routes would get downgraded to county routes and some of the town roads would be upgraded.

The counties of Nassau and Westchester in New York could benefit from signed county routes, and the latter could benefit from a major renumbering as well.

But CT doesn't have 95% state roads, or every through road is state-maintained, like some other states. It's Louisiana-dense. LA manages to fit parish routes in there too, and I think CT could do so without dropping many state highways. There are plenty of other roads in the state that would qualify.

[connroadgeek]

But CT doesn't have 95% state roads, or every through road is state-maintained, like some other states. It's Louisiana-dense. LA manages to fit parish routes in there too, and I think CT could do so without dropping many state highways. There are plenty of other roads in the state that would qualify.

I don't get the point of your post. Roads in Connecticut are either city or state maintained. There are no counties here to maintain roads. We have a simple structure when it comes to government and administrative divisions, unlike most states.

[Duke87]

The thing about Connecticut is that the state benefited financially from abolishing county government (in a broad sense, not just for roads). It's a small state, and a fairly densely populated one, so having no government between the state level and the level of the 169 municipalities (bear in mind, some states have nearly that many counties) works just fine for them. With no county government it logically follows that there are no county roads.

Pennsylvania sort of does have a county route network, that's basically what the quadrant routes are. But they are state maintained and never signed with anything more than reference markers, so they don't serve much of a navigational purpose.

As for a state "needing county roads", I don't see why. Personally, I tend to have the opposite opinion: county routes are weeds, signed numbers should be reserved for roads of greater prominence. I have no objection to counties maintaining roads but having shields posted for them is just needless sign clutter. If a road is important enough to have a posted number, it's important enough to be a state highway (in terms of signage if not in terms of maintenance).

[ARMOURERERIC]

The Pittsburgh belts can become Loop 100, Loop 200................

[froggie]

As for a state "needing county roads", I don't see why. Personally, I tend to have the opposite opinion: county routes are weeds, signed numbers should be reserved for roads of greater prominence. I have no objection to counties maintaining roads but having shields posted for them is just needless sign clutter. If a road is important enough to have a posted number, it's important enough to be a state highway (in terms of signage if not in terms of maintenance).

Having grown up in the Midwest, I disagree with this sentiment.  Yes, there are roads that may not be important at a state level, but are important at a county/town-to-town/township-to-township level.  Given the wide expanse out there, having signed county routes as a supplemental network to the state highway network is not a bad thing.

[cl94]

As for a state "needing county roads", I don't see why. Personally, I tend to have the opposite opinion: county routes are weeds, signed numbers should be reserved for roads of greater prominence. I have no objection to counties maintaining roads but having shields posted for them is just needless sign clutter. If a road is important enough to have a posted number, it's important enough to be a state highway (in terms of signage if not in terms of maintenance).

Having grown up in the Midwest, I disagree with this sentiment.  Yes, there are roads that may not be important at a state level, but are important at a county/town-to-town/township-to-township level.  Given the wide expanse out there, having signed county routes as a supplemental network to the state highway network is not a bad thing.

Get north of Westchester and Rockland and out to Suffolk and New York needs signed county routes because there just isn't the population density and vast number of state routes to warrant them not being signed. In most of the state, the vast majority of county routes are former state routes and roads of regional importance. While the maintenance standards of towns vary greatly, county standards tend to be nearly as high as state standards (except in Erie County, where the county maintains everything and nothing is in good shape). While sticking to the state routes can be pretty difficult if going against the grid, county routes cut corners and, being signed, encourage people to use the high-quality road and the reassurance markers make it so non-locals aren't forced to rely on often-changing street names.

[vdeane]

I think we can add Hamilton County as another exception.  It has some dirt county roads.

[cl94]

I think we can add Hamilton County as another exception.  It has some dirt county roads.

Yeah. CRs 10, 20, and 25 are completely unpaved, along with sections of CRs 4 and 21. 13.6 miles of the not even 100 mile system. While we're counting the exceptions in New York, parts of Erie CRs 9, 41, 175, 220, 475, 483, 489, and 491, Essex CR 78 and Lewis CRs 18, 23, 27, 28, and 45 are also unpaved. Don't know of any elsewhere. Might be a few in Ulster, but I can't get the inventory file to open.

[Roadgeek Adam]

My question is, what incentive would the 67 counties have? (66 if you consider that Philadelphia County doesn't need them). A lot of counties are rural areas and unless you're a resident, you wouldn't need one. Let's not forget a lot of the quadrant routes that exist today were touring routes at one time or another (Pike 1017 = PA 963, part of Pike 2001 = PA 962 and so on.) If some of these roads weren't worth being signed touring routes, what makes county touring routes any more worth the effort?

Also, you propose 66 counties get the funding to even have it, and given the lack of transportation funding in PA, I doubt it will happen.

[Bitmapped]

The only way I could see county routes making sense in rural parts of Pennsylvania is by having the counties take over road maintenance from the townships.  That might make sense since it would allow for some better economies of scale.

I like PennDOT's current system of quadrant routes.  In rural parts of the state, like much of the PA Wilds, they serve as a minimum benchmark of quantity.  If it's a state-maintained road, I know it's at least chip-seal and going to get some maintenance in the winter.  All bets are off with township roads.

I would like to change has PennDOT has transferred maintenance of some roads to local municipalities.  If it is a signed traffic route, I think it should be state-maintained.  If a township wants to take over a road, they should have to take everything rather than taking the road and leaving PennDOT with the bridges.  I also think transfers need to have logical endpoints; many times, roads will abruptly transition control at township lines rather than major intersections or other logical points.

[vdeane]

Snow removal can be a big thing.  On one of my winter roadtrips, the state highways were all clear, but driving a Franklin County road (trivia: Franklin County uses a green square rather than the pentagon) through farm fields was like being on Ice Road Truckers.

[cl94]

Snow removal can be a big thing.  On one of my winter roadtrips, the state highways were all clear, but driving a Franklin County road (trivia: Franklin County uses a green square rather than the pentagon) through farm fields was like being on Ice Road Truckers.

Anything in Pennsylvania would be an improvement when snow removal is concerned. Heck, the short stretch of I-90 in the state is hell during the winter. Ohio and New York might be dry asphalt, but not where PennDOT has control-that's covered in snow. Local municipalities might be able to do a better job, especially in areas that get significant snowfall (northern PA, northwestern PA). It's sad that county routes in neighboring counties of NY and OH are plowed better than an interstate in Pennsylvania.

[Bitmapped]

Snow removal can be a big thing.  On one of my winter roadtrips, the state highways were all clear, but driving a Franklin County road (trivia: Franklin County uses a green square rather than the pentagon) through farm fields was like being on Ice Road Truckers.

Anything in Pennsylvania would be an improvement when snow removal is concerned. Heck, the short stretch of I-90 in the state is hell during the winter. Ohio and New York might be dry asphalt, but not where PennDOT has control-that's covered in snow. Local municipalities might be able to do a better job, especially in areas that get significant snowfall (northern PA, northwestern PA). It's sad that county routes in neighboring counties of NY and OH are plowed better than an interstate in Pennsylvania.

Especially in the parts of the state that get the most snow, the rural areas tend to be fairly poor.  The townships tend to do a mediocre job with snow removal on the roads they have now.  I doubt the counties would be able to do much better.  It's PennDOT pooling and redistributing assets on a statewide basis that provides a reasonable road network in places like Potter County.