Tolling I-80 Not Dead Yet

[PAHighways]

But, still, why should people in Bloomsburg, Sharon, Williamsport, etc. have to pay so that someone in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh can have an easier way to work?

People in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia have to pay for transit companies in rural areas that receive subsidies from PennDOT for operations. 

Well, they made their bed 50+ years ago, and now they don't want to lay in it anymore?

People change their minds all of the time.  However as I have said, the state changed its mind almost as soon as 80 opened.

[mightyace]

But, still, why should people in Bloomsburg, Sharon, Williamsport, etc. have to pay so that someone in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh can have an easier way to work?

People in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia have to pay for transit companies in rural areas that receive subsidies from PennDOT for operations. 

What transit companies?

Bloomsburg's transit company closed over 40 years ago.

EDIT:

And the ones in Hazleton, Williamsport, Wilkes-Barre and Scranton are bloody jokes that aren't even good for basic transportation.

[PAHighways]

What transit companies?

Bloomsburg's transit company closed over 40 years ago.

There are others, such as the one that services my mostly rural county.

[mightyace]

Well, I guess we've beat this one to death!

I've said all that I've needed to say and I understand where y'all are coming from even though, obviously, I vehemently disagree.

Now we get to see what those who really have a say in it do!

P.S. Please note that I've changed my avatar and slogan.

[agentsteel53]

yep, we shall see how political power wields itself ... as far as I know, the little guy is far, far, far away from being represented!

whoo cynicism!

[mightyace]

yep, we shall see how political power wields itself ... as far as I know, the little guy is far, far, far away from being represented!

whoo cynicism!

Now, THAT, I can agree on! 

[froggie]

Why should I pay more in gas than I already do as has been suggested?

Perhaps because existing gas taxes do not cover the cost of maintaining/rebuilding roads?

Your question, Jeff, could be interpreted as boiling down to a fundamental issue:  people want good roads, but don't want to pay for them.

Transit was only a part of the reason for implementing tolls.  The main reason was to fund PennDOT's plans to rebuild the 22,300-some structurally deficient bridges across the state so an I-35W doesn't happen here.

Minnesota wanted the same thing, especially since I-35W happened there.  But they didn't go socking out-of-state travelers with tolls to pay for roads they weren't driving on.  They raised the gas tax.

True, a gas tax increase in PA would hit local PA drivers.  But since its their roads the gas tax would go to, that should be a fair trade.  Furthermore, you'd still collect from the out-of-state I-80 drivers, since its very difficult to cross east-west through PA without having to fill up at least once.

But the main issue, IMO, isn't about tolling I-80 per se.  It's that state officials (the governor and the legislature in particular) want to siphon off I-80 tolls to pay for other projects elsewhere.  Nevermind that such is against the Federal law that tolling I-80 would fall under.  If Rendell and the Legislature would just bone up to this, and concede that any I-80 tolls would ONLY PAY FOR I-80 PROJECTS, I think you'd have a lot more support for the proposal.

If they do so, and I-80 tolls only pay for I-80, I support it.  As long as the plan siphons off I-80 tolls elsewhere, I'm opposed and will probably do something similar to mightyace when I travel north (like divert into Jersey).

And you'll get to enjoy truck-choked I-81, Virginia's 65 mph speed limit instead of 70 mph in other states, and have to endure Virginia's ban on radar detectors.

While I agree on the 65 MPH limit thing (should mostly be 70 for consistency with TN and WV), it's not like he wouldn't hit 65 MPH limits in other states (Ohio if he goes that way, and PA of course).  And no sympathy from me on the radar detector ban...

[J N Winkler]

It is true that any highway funding mechanism has the potential to result in a division into winners and losers, but even so there are strong drawbacks to allowing PennDOT and the PTC to toll I-80 even if we allowed the precedent thus created to be used by any other state to apply tolls to roads which it believed were of interest primarily or exclusively to out-of-state travellers.

*  Tolls cost more to collect than motor fuel taxes and also raise a hurdle to economic use of the highway on which tolls are charged.  Tolling arrangements also vary widely state-by-state, while motor fuel taxes are collected more or less in the same way nationwide (although the specific amounts and their disposition varies from state to state).  If every state imposed tolls on I-80 on the grounds that it was of interest largely to out-of-state travellers, users of I-80 in general would pay more (not just in money but also in the frictional costs of dealing with multiple charging systems) in order for I-80 to be operated at less than its economic capacity.  This might be beneficial to transit users in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh if the law were changed to allow them to be subsidized by I-80 tolls, but how would it be beneficial to the national economy as a whole?

*  How much does Pennsylvania really lose by operating I-80 for the benefit primarily of out-of-state traffic?  4R work on I-80 attracts 90% federal funding (IM), while capacity expansion--which is only minimally necessary--attracts 80% federal funding (NH).  This leaves PennDOT responsible just for ordinary maintenance, which is arguably fair since I-80 is beneficial to residents in northern Pennsylvania.

Even in the US we do not give a homeowner the option of paying just for the length of road in front of his house while telling the rest of the world to go to hell, so it is hard to see why Pennsylvania should be able to opt out of paying for network utility which is, ultimately, beneficial to Pennsylvanians as to residents of the US at large.

[mightyace]

And you'll get to enjoy truck-choked I-81, Virginia's 65 mph speed limit instead of 70 mph in other states, and have to endure Virginia's ban on radar detectors.

While I agree on the 65 MPH limit thing (should mostly be 70 for consistency with TN and WV), it's not like he wouldn't hit 65 MPH limits in other states (Ohio if he goes that way, and PA of course).  And no sympathy from me on the radar detector ban...

Well, my brother has done a lot of traveling between Bloomsburg and Nashville this year and has used both I-40/I-81/US11-15 routing and the I-65/I-71/I-76/I-80 routing, and in his opinion, the trucks were less of a problem on I-81 than on I-80.  As this is a subjective observation, as always, your mileage may vary.

[hbelkins]

Well, my brother has done a lot of traveling between Bloomsburg and Nashville this year and has used both I-40/I-81/US11-15 routing and the I-65/I-71/I-76/I-80 routing, and in his opinion, the trucks were less of a problem on I-81 than on I-80.  As this is a subjective observation, as always, your mileage may vary.

I don't remember there being a lot of truck traffic on I-80 in Pennsylvania, but have been told that my observation may have been atypical.

For a lightly-traveled route, your brother might want to try I-65/Bluegrass Parkway/I-64/I-79/I-68/US 220/I-99/I-80.

[froggie]

Well, my brother has done a lot of traveling between Bloomsburg and Nashville this year and has used both I-40/I-81/US11-15 routing and the I-65/I-71/I-76/I-80 routing, and in his opinion, the trucks were less of a problem on I-81 than on I-80.  As this is a subjective observation, as always, your mileage may vary.

Based on those routings, you'd have more 70 MPH along the 40/81 routing.

[PAHighways]

Why should I pay more in gas than I already do as has been suggested?

Perhaps because existing gas taxes do not cover the cost of maintaining/rebuilding roads?

Your question, Jeff, could be interpreted as boiling down to a fundamental issue:  people want good roads, but don't want to pay for them.

I don't mind paying my share of the tax.  There was an idea floated back in 2006 to halt collecting the tax when prices skyrocketed which I was against.  However, the easiest answer is always to raise taxes which they wanted to do later in 2006.

Anyway, as I have said before, next year marks 40 years since I-80 was completed border-to-border and for just as long there has been talk of implementing tolls.  Something tells me we will still be hearing about tolls coming to it 40 years from now.

[PAHighways]

State Files I-80 Tolling Addendum to Answer Federal Questions

[mightyace]

here has been talk of implementing tolls.  Something tells me we will still be hearing about tolls coming to it 40 years from now.

Here we formally go with try #10,001 to toll I-80. 

Seriously, is there any timetable to get a response on this?

[hbelkins]

I hadn't seen the bit that you'd get the first toll booth free of charge. That ought to satisfy the concerns of locals, since I-80 is primarily a through route for out-of-state drivers and doesn't really serve any major Pennsylvania cities.

[PAHighways]

I hadn't seen the bit that you'd get the first toll booth free of charge. That ought to satisfy the concerns of locals, since I-80 is primarily a through route for out-of-state drivers and doesn't really serve any major Pennsylvania cities.

The plan is 10 plazas at 30 mile intervals, so if you're traveling between one exit and the next you won't pay a toll...unless of course the next exit is beyond a toll plaza.

[mightyace]

I hadn't seen the bit that you'd get the first toll booth free of charge. That ought to satisfy the concerns of locals, since I-80 is primarily a through route for out-of-state drivers and doesn't really serve any major Pennsylvania cities.

The plan is 10 plazas at 30 mile intervals, so if you're traveling between one exit and the next you won't pay a toll...unless of course the next exit is beyond a toll plaza.

Here's where they want to put the gantries, assuming they succeed.

http://www.paturnpike.com/i80/tolling/locations.aspx

[froggie]

Left them feedback on their comment form.  Especially if you're a PA resident, I suggest everyone do the same.

[mightyace]

PA/I-80 toll valuation consultant runs jails, does deceptive name change

The PTC is not helping their case by working with a company not experienced in the right field, even if they are competent.

[PAHighways]

PA House GOP Leader Seeks Rejection of I-80 Toll Plan

[PAHighways]

Funeral For a Commission - former PA Congressman John Peterson gives his opinion on what should happen instead.

Alliance to Stop I-80 Tolling - operated by several chambers of commerce along I-80.  I find it amusing that they are against tolling 80, but want you to donate via PayPal to help their cause.  However, you can become a fan of the Alliance to Stop I-80 Tolls on Facebook for free.

PCN Call-In (November 23) - Transportation Secretary Allen Biehler takes calls on all issues including tolling I-80.

[mightyace]

Alliance to Stop I-80 Tolling - operated by several chambers of commerce along I-80.

I signed up!

Also, I saw from the website that it is run by the Columbia Montour and Williamsport/Lycoming Chambers of Commerce.  (Columbia County, PA is where I grew up.)

I haven't contributed (yet?) directly, but I spent a several hundred dollars this past weekend shopping in the areas those chambers of commerce represent.

[PAHighways]

Legislators Tell Highway Officials Tolls Spell Doom

[njroadhorse]

Alliance to Stop I-80 Tolling - operated by several chambers of commerce along I-80.

I signed up!

Also, I saw from the website that it is run by the Columbia Montour and Williamsport/Lycoming Chambers of Commerce.  (Columbia County, PA is where I grew up.)

I haven't contributed (yet?) directly, but I spent a several hundred dollars this past weekend shopping in the areas those chambers of commerce represent.

Legislators Tell Highway Officials Tolls Spell Doom

It seems like the only places that people and government representatives feel strongly about this is in the central reaches of the state.  Has there been as much strong opposition to the tolling in areas like Sharon, Mercer, Stroudsburg, and Scranton?

[PAHighways]

It seems like the only places that people and government representatives feel strongly about this is in the central reaches of the state.  Has there been as much strong opposition to the tolling in areas like Sharon, Mercer, Stroudsburg, and Scranton?

There was opposition from state legislators and trucking firms from Venango and Mercer Counties during Round 1 last year.