Is there still a need for Business Routes?

[agentsteel53]

Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.

sometimes business routes are immediately removed from the state highway system and relegated to town control.  The state provides a single batch of business signs, and then forgets about it.  Montana is known for this, on business loop 15 (old US-91) and business loop 90 (old US-10).  You may find 1957-spec interstate and business shields all over Montana due to this practice.

that said, the best business routes are the ones that are utterly decommissioned and forgotten, like Business US-36 in a particular Kansas town that still has cutouts as of 2007.

[bulldog1979]

Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.

When MDOT transferred BUS US 41 in downtown Marquette to the city, they made a big deal about taking down all the signs. The junction assemblies on US 41/M-28 were placed on wooden posts. MDOT just cut the post off above the US 41/M-28 signs to remove the BUS US 41 assembly at the top. The reassurance markers along the route were taken down off the city lightpoles in a "transfer ceremony". As I remember, the first one was jointly removed by the City Manager and the MDOT Regional Directory in front of photographers. I know that the photos ran in the newspaper the next day.

[Scott5114]

Did they at least give the signs to members of the crowd?

[US71]

Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.

Check US 169 in Kansas. There are several sections that have been bypassed, but not been given business routes.

For many years there was a CITY 71 along  A Street in Bentonville, AR. When it got renamed Spur 72, the signs disappeared, as did an embossed red/white Fire Station sign.

[agentsteel53]

When MDOT transferred BUS US 41 in downtown Marquette to the city, they made a big deal about taking down all the signs. The junction assemblies on US 41/M-28 were placed on wooden posts. MDOT just cut the post off above the US 41/M-28 signs to remove the BUS US 41 assembly at the top. The reassurance markers along the route were taken down off the city lightpoles in a "transfer ceremony". As I remember, the first one was jointly removed by the City Manager and the MDOT Regional Directory in front of photographers. I know that the photos ran in the newspaper the next day.

gosh I'm glad that several other towns have not done anything nearly so elaborate, and have allowed their old signs to remain in obscurity.



nothing to see here, just the last known embossed US shield in existence!

[hbelkins]

Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.

Well, some of the business routes in Virginia, especially the southwestern part of the state, are havens for old cutouts.

[bulldog1979]

Did they at least give the signs to members of the crowd?

I don't know that they said what they did with them. They probably got reused if they were in good shape. The banner plates were probably used on BUS M-28 and the US 41 shields on a later signing project someplace.

[bulldog1979]

When MDOT transferred BUS US 41 in downtown Marquette to the city, they made a big deal about taking down all the signs. The junction assemblies on US 41/M-28 were placed on wooden posts. MDOT just cut the post off above the US 41/M-28 signs to remove the BUS US 41 assembly at the top. The reassurance markers along the route were taken down off the city lightpoles in a "transfer ceremony". As I remember, the first one was jointly removed by the City Manager and the MDOT Regional Directory in front of photographers. I know that the photos ran in the newspaper the next day.

gosh I'm glad that several other towns have not done anything nearly so elaborate, and have allowed their old signs to remain in obscurity.

nothing to see here, just the last known embossed US shield in existence!

Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.

we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!

[agentsteel53]

Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same.

nope, they are flat.  They are 1948 specification, and date back to sometime between 1948 and the late 60s.

[MDRoads]

I can only use MDSHA as an example, but in their route logs, TRUCK isn't used in route inventories. Even Scenic (40) makes an appearance.  Most Truck bannered routes are 'overlays' on other routes, and those numbers are used, e.g. Erdman Ave is referenced as MD 151, even though it's also Truck US 40.

What about Truck 1/Truck 40 in the same city?  They're not overlays on any other route.  If memory serves, Truck 1 would have to be an official route but Truck 40 may be able to get away without it?

The city signs are ambiguous on North Ave, and imply that it's Truck 1 as well, but that's mainline US 1.  West of Fulton Ave, when US 1 turns south, the rest of North Ave/Hilton Pkwy is noted on some maps as Truck 40 (a few also Truck 1).  MDSHA doesn't maintain surface streets in Baltimore City, so the city can do whatever they wish.  West of Fulton, it's just given a municipal number in SHA's inventory (MU2210), numbers which are given to all streets.  They used to have Truck US 40 in there, and also Truck MD 2 and 3, but were removed over 10 years ago.  As a primary basis for route inventory, Truck has been depreciated in relation to the other banners. All the city signage remains though.

An example where a truck route is SHA maintained can be found west of Cumberland, where Truck US 220 overlays MD 53 (co-signed in some places, just MD 53 in others).  No mention in the inventory of the Truck US route, it's strictly MD 53 there.

[treichard]

Truck US 40 in Baltimore:

Old sign on US 40 WB:


New sign on I-83:



US 1/Truck US 40 WB:



The opposite MD example is Business US 15 in Emmitsburg, which is in the AASHTO and SHA logs.  There are zero signs for the route.  On top of that, the Gettysburg Business US 15 stops at the state line, just short of the US 15 intersection where the Emmitsburg route begins.

More on topic, it would be interesting to see what proportion of Business routes actually follow their intended purpose or the present AASHTO guidelines.  If most indeed don't and it would be brought to AASHTO's attention, would anything useful result?

[agentsteel53]

there looks to be a great button-copy 40 shield of 1961 specifications in the first photo.  There are some even older (1957 spec) shields on the Hilton Parkway, at least as of 2006 when I was last there.

[Alex]

there looks to be a great button-copy 40 shield of 1961 specifications in the first photo.  There are some even older (1957 spec) shields on the Hilton Parkway, at least as of 2006 when I was last there.

All shields at that junction were originally hand-painted (all replaced since then too):



That is one thing I always noticed, and now it makes sense since the signage is city maintained, was that the Truck routes for both U.S. 1 and 40 were inconsistently signed. Really is there a need for them with Interstate 95 being completed since the mid 1980s?

[hbelkins]

Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.

we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!

Geez oh Pete. Isn't this being a little too paranoid? Editing the location of signs on a roadgeek forum? Give me a freaking break.

[Alex]

Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.

we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!

Geez oh Pete. Isn't this being a little too paranoid? Editing the location of signs on a roadgeek forum? Give me a freaking break.

In his defense, there is one particular sign collector/dealer who is also a roadgeek, and is very persistent with transportation agencies in having signs taken down so he can resell them. His work resulted in the removal of the last couple of I-70 UT shields in the field, one of which was many miles removed from the actual Interstate.  Paranoia sometimes is justified, as someone did take down the last US 611 shield in the Philly area after it was posted on the old Interstate Shields Gallery. 

[hbelkins]

In his defense, there is one particular sign collector/dealer who is also a roadgeek, and is very persistent with transportation agencies in having signs taken down so he can resell them. His work resulted in the removal of the last couple of I-70 UT shields in the field, one of which was many miles removed from the actual Interstate.  Paranoia sometimes is justified, as someone did take down the last US 611 shield in the Philly area after it was posted on the old Interstate Shields Gallery. 

So does this person get the DOTs to sell him their old signs? I haven't heard of that happening around here.

[agentsteel53]

So does this person get the DOTs to sell him their old signs? I haven't heard of that happening around here.

usually he can buy them for scrap metal price, but sometimes he just gets them for free.  the extra level of fun is when he takes the DOT guy out to the field and has them take down an old sign that is still in service.

[hbelkins]

So does this person get the DOTs to sell him their old signs? I haven't heard of that happening around here.

usually he can buy them for scrap metal price, but sometimes he just gets them for free.  the extra level of fun is when he takes the DOT guy out to the field and has them take down an old sign that is still in service.

So is anyone going to "out" this person publicly, or are you going to have to do it via private message to me? (hint, hint)

[bulldog1979]

Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.

we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!

Geez oh Pete. Isn't this being a little too paranoid? Editing the location of signs on a roadgeek forum? Give me a freaking break.

Well, I guess I see the logic, but anyone who wanted, the locations of all three signs in the photos has been discussed in the GLR forum on Yahoo already. In addition there's a cutout M-28 shield that's been discussed, complete locations given in all 4 cases.

[agentsteel53]

So is anyone going to "out" this person publicly, or are you going to have to do it via private message to me? (hint, hint)

all the information can be found in our main office.  It's located behind an abandoned lavatory with a sign on the door that says "beware of the leopard".

[agentsteel53]

there's an M-28 shield?  I never found that one, just the US-41s and M-203.  Is the 28 embossed?

I know a couple of cutout shields (like the 41s) survived the mass-replacement done around 1979.  One guy who worked for the highway department ended up with something like 75 embossed M shields.  That's why they can be found on eBay at such affordable prices.

[bulldog1979]

there's an M-28 shield?  I never found that one, just the US-41s and M-203.  Is the 28 embossed?

I know a couple of cutout shields (like the 41s) survived the mass-replacement done around 1979.  One guy who worked for the highway department ended up with something like 75 embossed M shields.  That's why they can be found on eBay at such affordable prices.

I don't think it is. Odd enough, it's posted with a modern US 41 shield at location which shall remain untyped and a modern double-headed arrow. We locals know where it is though. 

Yes, I'll admit that there are days I've been tempted to contact the appropriate city departments to express interest that if they ever were going to replace said cutouts, that I'd be interested in purchasing them. I have not, for fear that such a letter would spur them to remove them and post them on eBay or something. At least now when I go home, I can see them and enjoy them. Maybe someday I'll get replicas for my walls.

[agentsteel53]

I don't think it is. Odd enough, it's posted with a modern US 41 shield at location which shall remain untyped and a modern double-headed arrow. We locals know where it is though.  

Yes, I'll admit that there are days I've been tempted to contact the appropriate city departments to express interest that if they ever were going to replace said cutouts, that I'd be interested in purchasing them. I have not, for fear that such a letter would spur them to remove them and post them on eBay or something. At least now when I go home, I can see them and enjoy them. Maybe someday I'll get replicas for my walls.

same town as the flat 41 pair?  if so, I'm quite surprised I missed it, as I thought I searched pretty thoroughly.  

as for getting an M cutout, eBay is the way to go.  Find seller jkellyjkelly; even the embossed ones tend to be very affordable.  (the cost of a replica flat is significantly higher than an old original one!)

there's an 85 cutout in the Detroit area, with a wooden black guide sign on the same pole.  There's also a US-10 cutout in downtown Detroit.  There's apparently a 134 around somewhere as well but I have not seen it in person.

[rawmustard]

There's apparently a 134 around somewhere as well but I have not seen it in person.

Dan wanted me to get a picture of this one when I made my UP trip last fall, but I set out from Mackinaw City early morning (i.e., without daylight) and didn't venture to that junction anyway.

[MDRoads]

Found this today north of Baltimore near the I-695 @ MD 139 (Charles St) bridge/interchange construction.  "Truck" is being used temporarily like a Detour banner.  This is just a ramp to I-695 that's always been there.