OT: Toyota ads

[bugo]

Toyota brags about "reliability" in their ads.  They brag about that and little else.  It's 2010, virtually any new car you can buy now is very reliable.  Modern computer systems, fuel injection, and tight tolerances guarantee this.  Toyota bragging about quality is like them bragging about their cars having four wheels.

I hate Toyota.  Soulless, boring transportation devices.

[Alps]

Yes, relatively soulless and boring, but I can vouch for reliability.  61,000 miles and counting so far, and I have NEVER had work done outside the usual maintenance.  Knocking on wood as I type. (:

[corco]

Yep. Unfortunately, a lot of people still buy cars as if it's 1985 or even 1995.

In 2010, if you do the usual maintenance on a new car, it will be fine. If you don't take care of it, it will fall apart. There will be rare exceptions on a car-by-car basis, but for the most part it has nothing to do with who makes it. I've found that if you ask most people who complain about their cars being pieces of shit, it ends up that their car is a piece of shit because they wait 10,000 miles between oil changes or something like that. It would be interesting to study if people who buy foreign take better care of their cars than people who buy domestic- the general consensus around these parts is "Buy domestic if you're getting a pickup truck, otherwise buy foreign"- but people who buy pickup trucks to use as farm vehicles tend to take very good care of their vehicles (side note: if I were in the market for a used pickup, I'd buy one that has been used on a farm before one that's been some trustafarian city-slicker's snowmobile hauler). I'd suspect that if it were really studied, they'd find people who buy foreign passenger cars take better care of their vehicles, especially 15-20 years ago when this reputation got developed. A lot of that is wealth based- despite the fact that Japanese cars gained a hold because they were cheaper, studies have shown that wealthier people are more likely to buy foreign cars- therefore, more money for maintenance.

In Toyota's case, all objective reports have indicated a significant decline in quality relative to other automakers in the last decade or so (a large part of this as to do with changes in the manufacturing process- example being the current generation Tundra, which was the first car ever produced by Toyota in America using employees who had never worked for Toyota before that they hadn't already built in Japan - the result was a huge frame rot problem (just google toyota tundra frame rot), among other things), so I don't get it.

[Chris]

I've found that if you ask most people who complain about their cars being pieces of shit, it ends up that their car is a piece of shit because they wait 10,000 miles between oil changes or something like that.

Do you really need to change oil that often in the U.S.? I change it every ~12,000 miles, and most people I know do it too with a similar frequency. A car which needs oil changes every 2,000 miles is considered a crappy car on this side of the pond...

That said, the reliability issue is something mostly of the past. How often do cars break down while driving? The worst thing you get is problems with the electronics, but mechanically, almost no car fails these days if they receive their normal servicing.

Another thing I noticed is that Americans put huge amounts of miles on their cars. I mean, a gasoline-powered car is generally considered written off after 120,000 - 150,000 miles in the Netherlands. A diesel car after 180,000 - 200,000 miles. Of course you see people who put 200,000+ miles on their cars, but most people don't do that.

[corco]

I religiously change mine every 3,000 or 3 months (whichever comes first, almost always the 3,000 miles)- interesting that you do it every 12K- I feel like that would cause any car over here to explode (even the ones with the same engines you guys have!).  Are you guys using fully synthetic super-fancy oil that maybe we can't get? I usually use a partial-synthetic that's rated for more miles, but I don't push it. A straight oil change (minus the other services Jiffy Lube and other lube places try to throw in) over here shouldn't cost more than US$25-30- how much do they run there?

Maybe we change our oil more often because we expect our cars to go a huge number of miles? I don't know. That's an interesting conundrum

[Alps]

I bet that changing oil no more than every 5K miles is why ours last past 200K whereas the Euro cars are done after half that.

[mightyace]

Another thing I noticed is that Americans put huge amounts of miles on their cars. I mean, a gasoline-powered car is generally considered written off after 120,000 - 150,000 miles in the Netherlands. A diesel car after 180,000 - 200,000 miles. Of course you see people who put 200,000+ miles on their cars, but most people don't do that.

As I said in "Post My Car," all my vehicles have over 200,000 miles on it.

The only new car I've ever bought, a 1994 Saturn SL1 had 280,000 miles when I wrecked it and the engine was still in good shape.  I had been hoping to get 500,000 miles out of it.

[Chris]

I bet that changing oil no more than every 5K miles is why ours last past 200K whereas the Euro cars are done after half that.

I think it is more about economically written off, than mechanically written off. Why spend $ 1,000 per year on maintenance after 150,000 miles while the car is worth only $ 1,500? Most people buy a "new"* car every 4 or 5 years. Another issue is the replacement of the timing belt, which will cost you around $ 800 easily. Most people change that belt once at 60,000 miles, and then sell it before they have to do it again at 120,000 miles.

* That is, a second-hand car. New cars are outrageously expensive in the Netherlands. A 2010 Toyota Corolla will cost you $ 28,000. Browsing through a random car dealer in New Jersey shows me that model cost $ 18,000 in the United States.

[SP Cook]

It's 2010, virtually any new car you can buy now is very reliable. 

I disagree.  In my job I have to keep a fleet on the road, and we also rent dozens of cars per week. 

The quality gap between the so-called American and so-called foreign cars remains wide.  I would not own a GM car if they gave it to me.  Pure garbage.  I have actually had GM dealers laugh at me and tell me "what did you expect?"

[NJRoadfan]

Do you really need to change oil that often in the U.S.? I change it every ~12,000 miles, and most people I know do it too with a similar frequency. A car which needs oil changes every 2,000 miles is considered a crappy car on this side of the pond...

Both my current car (Audi A4 2.0T) and previous car (VW Jetta GLI) have/had 10,000mi oil change intervals. The cars required synthetic oils meeting the manufacturer's factory standard. The 3000mi oil change is indeed a myth, most regular oils are good until 5000mi.

Oddly my 87 Audi 4000q (B2 Audi 80/90 to the Europeans) recommends 7500mi oil change intervals in some cases. Overall its been a durable and reliable car for being 23 years old and German. There are a few examples running close to 500,000mi on the road here in the US.

[J N Winkler]

I religiously change mine every 3,000 or 3 months (whichever comes first, almost always the 3,000 miles)- interesting that you do it every 12K- I feel like that would cause any car over here to explode (even the ones with the same engines you guys have!).  Are you guys using fully synthetic super-fancy oil that maybe we can't get? I usually use a partial-synthetic that's rated for more miles, but I don't push it. A straight oil change (minus the other services Jiffy Lube and other lube places try to throw in) over here shouldn't cost more than US$25-30- how much do they run there?

It has been a while since I have changed oil on either side of the pond, but I do have experience on both sides.  There is no difference between the US and Europe (UK in my case) in terms of availability of synthetic motor oil.  But a huge difference on the European side is that motor oil in general is very heavily taxed, so the price ratio between synthetic and natural motor oil is much lower in Europe than in the US.  Also, European multiviscosity oils tend to span wider viscosity ranges.  In the US we are used to being told to use 10W-30 or 10W-40 oil in temperate climates (usually 10W-30 for winter and 10W-40 for summer); in Europe 5W-40 oil is very common.

I have never actually taken a car in for servicing in the UK or Europe, but the impression I have is that garage charges are not that much larger in the UK than in the US.  In Kansas I would expect to pay between $20 and $25 for an oil change.  Personally, I changed my own oil for nine and a half out of the ten years I had Rosie, because that was the easiest way to make sure synthetic motor oil was used (I used Mobil 1) and that the air filter was not tampered with as part of the "routine checkup" bundled in the oil change.  It helped that oil changes were straightforward and easy in the second-generation Maxima--there are plenty of newer car models where it is an absolute headache.  My car in Britain was a 1989 Nissan Bluebird with a similarly easy oil change.

I generally stick to a 3000-mile oil change interval, but then I have never had maintenance responsibility for a car newer than 1990.  I would not say categorically that it is impossible for a car to perform well over hundreds of thousands of miles with a significantly longer oil change interval, but I would need a lot of convincing that such a possibility existed.  I understand that recommended oil change intervals in the US have a history of yo-yo fluctuation and that alone is a reason to be conservative in choice of interval.  I also have the impression that, possibly as a result of the wide viscosity spread but also possibly because of the longer intervals recommended, European cars burn more oil than American ones--1-2 liters per 1000 miles being not uncommon (Rosie, on the other hand, very rarely burned as much as a quart over 3000 miles).

Edit:  Wrenchless oil filters (capable of being fitted and tightened by hand alone, without the need to use a special oil filter wrench) appeared on the market first in Europe and then crossed the Atlantic to the USA.  I encountered my first wrenchless filter in the UK, was not very impressed with it, and then came back to the US and watched wrench-operated filters gradually disappear from the market.

[J N Winkler]

I think it is more about economically written off, than mechanically written off. Why spend $ 1,000 per year on maintenance after 150,000 miles while the car is worth only $ 1,500? Most people buy a "new"* car every 4 or 5 years. Another issue is the replacement of the timing belt, which will cost you around $ 800 easily. Most people change that belt once at 60,000 miles, and then sell it before they have to do it again at 120,000 miles.

* That is, a second-hand car. New cars are outrageously expensive in the Netherlands. A 2010 Toyota Corolla will cost you $ 28,000. Browsing through a random car dealer in New Jersey shows me that model cost $ 18,000 in the United States.

Purchase tax does make a big difference to the cost of buying a new car.  In Ireland I understand it is 33%, and in other European countries it is even higher.  The UK has no purchase tax but VAT does apply to new car purchases and at 17.5% (soon to be raised to 20%) that is bad enough.  Most US states just charge the sales tax (normally under 10%) and I know of no states which have, or give their localities the option to impose, purchase tax at anywhere approaching European levels.

Buying four-five years used every four or five years is actually a common strategy in the US, but perhaps not as common as a substitute for purchasing a new car as is the case in Europe.  The motivation is generally to avoid depreciation while getting the car at the peak of its reliability curve (brand-new cars tend to require a lot of repairs due to factory defects, and cars ten years old or older tend to require a lot of work due to life expiration of components, but cars three to eight years old require very few repairs).  But if the car is being used only for transportation, it generally still makes financial sense to keep it running until just before the point of catastrophic failure, as that yields the lowest cost per mile.  If you replace your car at a more frequent interval, e.g. to stay no more than five to ten years behind the current model year, you are spending somewhat more on depreciation than you save on the repairs that are necessary to a car which is older than ten years, and you don't really get anything for that added expenditure other than the convenience of less frequent need for repair.

[WillWeaverRVA]

I can also vouch for the reliability of foreign cars versus many American ones - my current car, a 2007 Toyota Camry, has 40,000 miles on it (and I literally put all but 9 miles on the car), and it hasn't needed any significant maintenance other than routine oil changes, etc. My mom used to have a Mercury Sable LS that suffered several brake and power failures before the engine finally gave out at 50,000 miles, despite numerous trips to the shop. My dad's Ford Ranger was purchased new and mysteriously suffered a broken right front suspension and repeated broken brake lines (despite replacement). I've also had pretty good experiences with Hyundai as well, and I've driven a few older European cars (that weren't mine) that drive really well despite their age.

[Chris]

I also have the impression that, possibly as a result of the wide viscosity spread but also possibly because of the longer intervals recommended, European cars burn more oil than American ones--1-2 liters per 1000 miles being not uncommon (Rosie, on the other hand, very rarely burned as much as a quart over 3000 miles).

I suppose it varies widely by car and make. I had a '94 Corolla that burned almost 1 liter per 1,000 miles, but my previous Renault Kangoo (French make) burns something like 1 liter per 6,000 miles. If I change oil after 12,000 miles (or 20,000 km), it has consumed only like 1.5 - 2 liters out of 5 liters. I actually never had to change oil because it was running empty before I hit the 12,000 miles service interval.

[corco]

I tell you what, I just picked up a new Corolla to drive to Nebraska/Iowa for a couple days.

Two weeks ago, I rented a Hyundai Elantra.

There's just no comparison- the Elantra was so much nicer. The interior materials were far nicer- the plastics in the Corolla feel like they came out of a late 90s Ford F-150 (hard as a rock), the ones in the Elantra were at least quasi-soft. The Corolla doesn't have as much power, and I haven't taken it on the twisties yet but I bet it's going to be boring.

Soulless is right- this is the first Toyota made after 1993 that I've ever driven (I've also driven my friends 93 4Runner and another friends 90 Pickup, both of which are actually pretty fun to drive) and by God does it feel boring. This car truly is an appliance- there's nothing special about it at all, which I guess makes it the perfect rental car.

At least it has Utah plates so I can drive like a Utard asshat and be forgiven.

After further driving:

If somebody wants to make the argument that a Honda Civic or a Hyundai Elantra are somehow special cars in their class, I wouldn't go buy one (because I don't think there are any in that class), but I can at least see some validity to the argument.

The Corolla...I just don't get why anybody would think the 2010 Toyota Corolla is a vehicle that should be adored, let alone put up on a pedestal as the best example of that class of car. It's a piece of junk. The Cobalt often gets shit as being a bad small American car, but I can't imagine how anybody looking even quasi-objectively could say that the current Corolla is better than a Cobalt. It feels like a rental car fleet special in a way I don't think any car has since the early 2000s Ford Taurus.

I couldn't imagine anybody buying a 2010 Corolla on purpose (not with the Focus, Civic, and Elantra available- all similar priced cars that feel far, far nicer), but they do just the same. Anybody who buys this car is doing it because they think Toyota is a "special" brand. There's no other conceivable explanation why anybody would purchase it.

Toyota is just mailing it in now- it's hilarious.

Also, When you push the unlock button on the key fob, the car beeps twice. When you push the lock button, it beeps once. That seems backwards. Why is it even beeping when I unlock it? And why does the sound sound exactly like my microwave (I prefer the horn chirp on the domestics, but at least the Honda beep, for instance, is at a slightly different frequency than my microwave)? I don't want my car to sound like a microwave (especially when it's drawing attention to the fact that I'm driving a Corolla. Would anybody draw attention to the fact that they were driving a Corolla on purpose? Even if you like them as cars, there's no way to argue that your status in society goes up when they see you driving a Corolla- if I had a Corvette and it beeped excessively, that might be kind of cool)- I guess that's further justification for why modern Toyotas are considered soulless driving appliances by car enthusiasts

[Brandon]

Got to drive a two door Yaris hatchback in December while my car (2002 PT Cruiser) was in the shop after an accident on an icy day (very minor, but I had to get my rear suspension replaced).  That Yaris was overall the worst vehicle I have ever driven, and that includes the rusty VW Bug I drove in Cozumel a couple of weeks ago.  Not only was it souless, tinny, full of hard plastic that makes a Sterilite storage bin look soft, but the speedometer was in the strangest place.  Who the fuck puts a speedometer in the middle of the dash instead of in front of the driver!?!  The gas gauge left a lot to be desired as well.  I mean, bars by the odometer for how much you have left, not a gauge?  Seriously?

I've driven many vehicles as rentals in the past, a Nissan Maxima (not too bad), a Corolla (POS, IMHO), a Pontiac Sunfire (could've been better), a Daewoo Lanos (not bad, but a bit strange), a Suzuki Aerio (Why do people make digital speedometers?  Give me my dial!), and multiple Calibers (I like the 2010s better that the older ones), among others, but the Yaris was the worst one hands down.

[agentsteel53]

I have an aversion to the Dodge Caliber because a couple of years ago, I had one get its accelerator stuck.  (Being a non-moron, I put the car in neutral and pulled over, as opposed to boiling my brakes and killing everyone around ... how boring.)

the worst car I've ever rented is the PT Cruiser, and the Chevy HHR is not too far behind.  Both have the cabin size of an economy car - but the handling, outward visibility, and fuel economy of box trucks.  It's like a reverse TARDIS - how do the laws of physics allow for the inside of a surface to be significantly smaller than the outside??

[J N Winkler]

Also, When you push the unlock button on the key fob, the car beeps twice. When you push the lock button, it beeps once. That seems backwards. Why is it even beeping when I unlock it?

I assume the headlamps flash when it is unlocked too.  A double beep increases your opportunity to locate the car by sound if you have forgotten where you parked it and are not in line of sight of the headlamps.

That Yaris was overall the worst vehicle I have ever driven, and that includes the rusty VW Bug I drove in Cozumel a couple of weeks ago.  Not only was it souless, tinny, full of hard plastic that makes a Sterilite storage bin look soft, but the speedometer was in the strangest place.  Who the fuck puts a speedometer in the middle of the dash instead of in front of the driver!?!

There is a fashion right now for center-mounted speedometers, which is hardly confined to Toyota--the Mini Cooper has had them too.  I hate it, would support a ban, and am hoping for a swift return to podded instrumentation.

[oscar]

Also, When you push the unlock button on the key fob, the car beeps twice. When you push the lock button, it beeps once. That seems backwards. Why is it even beeping when I unlock it? And why does the sound sound exactly like my microwave (I prefer the horn chirp on the domestics, but at least the Honda beep, for instance, is at a slightly different frequency than my microwave)? I don't want my car to sound like a microwave (especially when it's drawing attention to the fact that I'm driving a Corolla. Would anybody draw attention to the fact that they were driving a Corolla on purpose? Even if you like them as cars, there's no way to argue that your status in society goes up when they see you driving a Corolla- if I had a Corvette and it beeped excessively, that might be kind of cool)- I guess that's further justification for why modern Toyotas are considered soulless driving appliances by car enthusiasts.

My Prius could be (and was immediately) user-customized to squelch the beeps, and only flash the lights to confirm lock/unlock. Beeps would annoy the heck out of my neighbors when I leave or arrive at odd hours.

[bugo]

There is a fashion right now for center-mounted speedometers, which is hardly confined to Toyota--the Mini Cooper has had them too.  I hate it, would support a ban, and am hoping for a swift return to podded instrumentation.

I drove a first-gen Scion xB (made by Toyota) and it had the central mounted speedometer.  I hated driving it.  Besides the annoying speedometer, it was a soulless, ugly box of a car.  It was gutless, had no power (automatic transmission) and had numb steering.  And it had a high center of gravity so it leaned in turns.  And the ride in the back seat is atrocious.  What a piece of shit.  The only good thing I can say about it is it has plenty of rear legroom.  My mom has a Chevy HHR which is similarly packaged but a far superior vehicle.  And far, far better looking to boot.  The only bad things about the HHR is the windshield header is low so you have to bend down to see traffic lights and the 2.4L engine is so powerful that it has a lot of torque steer.  I'd take the HHR in a heartbeat over the Scion.

[bugo]

It's 2010, virtually any new car you can buy now is very reliable.  

I disagree.  In my job I have to keep a fleet on the road, and we also rent dozens of cars per week.  

The quality gap between the so-called American and so-called foreign cars remains wide.  I would not own a GM car if they gave it to me.  Pure garbage.  I have actually had GM dealers laugh at me and tell me "what did you expect?"

I STRONGLY disagree.  My 1998 Cavalier has 172,000 miles on it and the only work that has been done on it was normal maintenance like a water pump and a cooling fan and a new ignition switch, which was my fault.  It still runs great and gets 30 MPG at 80 MPH which is excellent for a 2.2L engine and 3 speed (!) automatic.  On the other hand, my sister had a Camry which was horrible.  She traded it for an American car (Ford Mustang) then an American truck (Jeep Grand Cherokee) and has never looked back.  I wouldn't have a Toyota if they gave it to me.  The anti-American bias found in car magazines like Car and Driver is just that, bias.

[bugo]

the worst car I've ever rented is the PT Cruiser, and the Chevy HHR is not too far behind.  Both have the cabin size of an economy car - but the handling, outward visibility, and fuel economy of box trucks.  It's like a reverse TARDIS - how do the laws of physics allow for the inside of a surface to be significantly smaller than the outside??

My mom's HHR is great outside the poor visibility caused by the low windshield.  It really has too much power for the platform as it has a lot of torque steer.  It's quick for what it is (2.4L DOHC engine, automatic tranny) and gets excellent gas mileage.  And she hasn't had a bit of trouble with it.  It's fairly roomy for its size.  The plastic is pretty hard, but it's a low priced car. 

[agentsteel53]

My mom's HHR is great outside the poor visibility caused by the low windshield.  It really has too much power for the platform as it has a lot of torque steer.  It's quick for what it is (2.4L DOHC engine, automatic tranny) and gets excellent gas mileage.  And she hasn't had a bit of trouble with it.  It's fairly roomy for its size.  The plastic is pretty hard, but it's a low priced car. 

did I just get a bogus one?  I got 23mpg the last time I rented one (still beats the PT Cruiser's fucking 18, which is a travesty upon an atrocity mixed with a calamity with a steady dose of farce)... and the rear visibility for me is terrible.  Just huge pillars everywhere... I swear I once accelerated and noted that my blind spot had previously been occupied by the USS Iowa.

[bugo]

My mom's HHR is great outside the poor visibility caused by the low windshield.  It really has too much power for the platform as it has a lot of torque steer.  It's quick for what it is (2.4L DOHC engine, automatic tranny) and gets excellent gas mileage.  And she hasn't had a bit of trouble with it.  It's fairly roomy for its size.  The plastic is pretty hard, but it's a low priced car. 

did I just get a bogus one?  I got 23mpg the last time I rented one (still beats the PT Cruiser's fucking 18, which is a travesty upon an atrocity mixed with a calamity with a steady dose of farce)... and the rear visibility for me is terrible.  Just huge pillars everywhere... I swear I once accelerated and noted that my blind spot had previously been occupied by the USS Iowa.

She gets about 28 MPG in town and 33 on the highway.  She said it's gotten 35 on the highway a couple of times.  She drives a lot more conservatively than I do so that's probably part of the reason.

18 in a PT Cruiser is terrible.  But Chrysler products have always been gas guzzlers.

[agentsteel53]

I STRONGLY disagree.  My 1998 Cavalier has 172,000 miles on it and the only work that has been done on it was normal maintenance like a water pump and a cooling fan and a new ignition switch, which was my fault.  It still runs great and gets 30 MPG at 80 MPH which is excellent for a 2.2L engine and 3 speed (!) automatic.  On the other hand, my sister had a Camry which was horrible.  She traded it for an American car (Ford Mustang) then an American truck (Jeep Grand Cherokee) and has never looked back.  I wouldn't have a Toyota if they gave it to me.  The anti-American bias found in car magazines like Car and Driver is just that, bias.

I also think American cars can run just fine.  My '89 Escort ran to 241000 miles and was giving me as good as 43mpg freeway, averaging about 70-73mph.  (1.9L engine, 5 speed manual)