Roundabouts & Pedestrian safety

[tradephoric]

A roundabout was constructed near St. Mary's High School in Kitchener Ontario in the summer of 2011.  In October 2011, a 16 year old girl was struck while crossing the crosswalk by a city transit bus and received serious injuries.

Here is a timelapse video of the roundabout:

Here is a roundtable discussion on the roundabout:

The timelapse video really shows how a heavily traveled pedestrian crossing at a roundabout can lead to gridlock inside of the roundabout circle.   Basically what are your thoughts on this roundabout and what are some possible solutions to make it safer/more efficient?

[hbelkins]

Tear it down and replace it with a signal. 

[NE2]

Safer? Strict enforcement of pedestrian right-of-way at crosswalks. More efficient? I guess if you don't care about pedestrian convenience you could build a bridge.

[iwishiwascanadian]

Well, it seems like a smaller roundabout but what they could do is something like what DC does with its major circles.  DDOT has traffic lights throughout the circle that allow pedestrians to pass around/through the circle.  But that's on a larger scale. 

[AsphaltPlanet]

This is a tremendously interesting story.  I worked for the design consultant that constructed the Homer Watson / Block Line roundabout, so I have a very keen interest.  In Quebec, it seems common to 'protect' the pedestrian movements across the predominant movement with traffic signals.  We shall see what happens.

[JREwing78]

There is a roundabout on the Western Michigan University campus that gets around this issue by grade-separating the pedestrian movements underneath.

[Alps]

Here's why you're supposed to place the pedestrian crossing farther from the roundabout entrance, at least 100' and depending on the approach volume.

[SignBridge]

I prefer a well designed, signalized intersection, over a roundabout. The public in Europe may be used to them, but I think roundabouts in North America cause more confusion and danger. In some cases they can impede emergency vehicle movement. In my region a roundabout was built some years ago between two secondary roads on the local fire dept's response route to one section of town. The biggest fire trucks couldn't make it around the circle without going over curbs. They protested, but the township didn't care. A sad commentary............

[1995hoo]

I prefer a well designed, signalized intersection, over a roundabout. The public in Europe may be used to them, but I think roundabouts in North America cause more confusion and danger. In some cases they can impede emergency vehicle movement. In my region a roundabout was built some years ago between two secondary roads on the local fire dept's response route to one section of town. The biggest fire trucks couldn't make it around the circle without going over curbs. They protested, but the towship didn't care. A sad commentary............

I feel just the opposite from you in many cases because I prefer the notion of not requiring people to stop unless there's a reason to do so. That is, a stop sign directs everyone to stop every time. A traffic light generally operates on a fixed cycle or a variant thereof, so it's not as bad as a stop sign, but we've all had the experience of sitting at a red light waiting when there's nobody on the other road. At the roundabout, you go if the way is clear and you stop if there's someone to whom you have to yield. It doesn't work in all situations, especially when there's a serious disparity in traffic levels between the two roads, but to me it's the difference between saying "We trust you to stop when necessary" versus "We don't trust you, so we'll require you to stop every time just in case one of those times you have to do so."

As far as the trucks go, it sounds like the people who designed that particular roundabout did a poor job. Lots of roundabouts have truck aprons on the central island (sort of like a banked edge, I guess you could say). It allows the large vehicles to mount the curb without having to bump up on a standard curb, and indeed the idea is that a large truck is supposed to mount the apron.

I think the biggest problem I've experienced at roundabouts in the USA is that drivers here seem less likely to signal properly than drivers in other countries. Roundabouts work best when you know what the other driver is going to do. If the entering driver has to stop and wait unnecessarily because the driver already on the roundabout didn't signal that he was exiting, it backs up the traffic when the queue could have kept moving.

[vdeane]

As far as the trucks go, it sounds like the people who designed that particular roundabout did a poor job. Lots of roundabouts have truck aprons on the central island (sort of like a banked edge, I guess you could say). It allows the large vehicles to mount the curb without having to bump up on a standard curb, and indeed the idea is that a large truck is supposed to mount the apron.

Indeed... a properly designed roundabout is actually BETTER than a regular intersection for large trucks, exactly for this reason!

The roundabout mentioned might have been designed properly; it's been my experience that most people do not know that large vehicles are supposed to mount the apron and think that it's a design flaw if they have to.

[1995hoo]

As far as the trucks go, it sounds like the people who designed that particular roundabout did a poor job. Lots of roundabouts have truck aprons on the central island (sort of like a banked edge, I guess you could say). It allows the large vehicles to mount the curb without having to bump up on a standard curb, and indeed the idea is that a large truck is supposed to mount the apron.

Indeed... a properly designed roundabout is actually BETTER than a regular intersection for large trucks, exactly for this reason!

The roundabout mentioned might have been designed properly; it's been my experience that most people do not know that large vehicles are supposed to mount the apron and think that it's a design flaw if they have to.

This is true. I was assuming that someone posting on this forum was probably aware of the concept of a curb apron and so I assumed SignBridge was saying this roundabout lacks one.

[SignBridge]

Sorry guys, I should have mentioned it. Yes, that roundabout in Huntington, Long Island does have the truck aprons, but it's a relatively small circle; these are secondary roads, only one lane in each direction. And yes, the fire trucks can make it using the aprons, but it slows them down greatly, compared to going thru a green light. As a fire engine chauffeur myself in another town, I don't think fire trucks should have to suffer the same delay that might be okay for commercial trucks. So I confess to being biased here.

And I appreciate your views on the advantages of roundabouts, but personally I would still rather wait for a green light, than fight my way thru a heavily travelled roundabout with traffic moving in so many directions.

[Takumi]

I think roundabouts work better than signals when there are either odd angles (the one on VA 106 in Prince George comes to mind for me) or at intersections with five or more directions. I prefer signals otherwise.

[AsphaltPlanet]

Here's why you're supposed to place the pedestrian crossing farther from the roundabout entrance, at least 100' and depending on the approach volume.

That makes sense with the installation of a pedestrian signal, however, having an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing further downstream of the roundabout could result in much more serious pedestrian collisions since vehicular traffic will likely be moving much more quickly further downstream of the roundabout then right at the exit.

[Duke87]

I think the biggest problem I've experienced at roundabouts in the USA is that drivers here seem less likely to signal properly than drivers in other countries. Roundabouts work best when you know what the other driver is going to do. If the entering driver has to stop and wait unnecessarily because the driver already on the roundabout didn't signal that he was exiting, it backs up the traffic when the queue could have kept moving.

American drivers in general seem to have a bad habit of not always using their turn signal, and roundabouts aren't the only case where this causes unnecessary slowdowns. If I pull up to make a left turn at a T intersection and stop for a car coming from the left, only then to see them turn right onto the street I'm coming off of without signalling, I always get irked.

It is particular true of roundabouts, however, that nobody knows how to signal properly in them - it's taught in driver's ed now, but it didn't used to be, so while young drivers might be educated on the matter, everyone else is not. Yes, you're supposed to signal a right before you exit, but that isn't intuitive to a lot of people... drivers in roundabouts usually don't signal or signal as if it was an intersection (no signal for continuing straight, signal right for right turn, signal left for left turn).

The other problem is that very often roundabouts are small enough that signaling is tricky and doing it "properly" can result in confusion. You're supposed to start signalling at least 3 seconds before executing the maneuver you're signalling for (by Connecticut law, anyway). But small roundabouts can reasonably create a situation where three seconds before I exit, I have not yet passed the exit before mine. What then?

[Brandon]

I prefer a well designed, signalized intersection, over a roundabout. The public in Europe may be used to them, but I think roundabouts in North America cause more confusion and danger. In some cases they can impede emergency vehicle movement. In my region a roundabout was built some years ago between two secondary roads on the local fire dept's response route to one section of town. The biggest fire trucks couldn't make it around the circle without going over curbs. They protested, but the township didn't care. A sad commentary............

Poor babies, firemen.  The fire department could use smaller vehicles, and keep their ladder trucks (which usually are never needed to their full capacity) at home.  Must be a great gig.  I mean, what other job do you actually get paid for sleeping half the time and play cards the other half, and use it as your high-paying second job?

[Zmapper]

Here's why you're supposed to place the pedestrian crossing farther from the roundabout entrance, at least 100' and depending on the approach volume.

That's 200' that you have to walk out of the way, even more if you cross multiple legs. This is NOT planning with pedestrians as a priority.

[Scott5114]

I prefer a well designed, signalized intersection, over a roundabout. The public in Europe may be used to them, but I think roundabouts in North America cause more confusion and danger. In some cases they can impede emergency vehicle movement. In my region a roundabout was built some years ago between two secondary roads on the local fire dept's response route to one section of town. The biggest fire trucks couldn't make it around the circle without going over curbs. They protested, but the township didn't care. A sad commentary............

I mean, what other job do you actually get paid for sleeping half the time and play cards the other half, and use it as your high-paying second job?

What other job are you required to enter burning buildings?

[SignBridge]

Ah yes, good point Scott. Actually I sent Brandon a private message pointing out that fire depts. in this area are almost all volunteer, but that's another whole story. 

I drove thru that roundabout in Huntington a few days ago, after not having been up there in several years. The approaches are very narrow, even for cars. Barely a lane-width wide. Awkward for my mid-size car and for any sizeable truck, including commercial trucks, a disaster. Very badly engineered in my opinion. I guess the idea was to slow traffic to a crawl in front of the post office.

[Brandon]

I prefer a well designed, signalized intersection, over a roundabout. The public in Europe may be used to them, but I think roundabouts in North America cause more confusion and danger. In some cases they can impede emergency vehicle movement. In my region a roundabout was built some years ago between two secondary roads on the local fire dept's response route to one section of town. The biggest fire trucks couldn't make it around the circle without going over curbs. They protested, but the township didn't care. A sad commentary............

I mean, what other job do you actually get paid for sleeping half the time and play cards the other half, and use it as your high-paying second job?

What other job are you required to enter burning buildings?

1. It's not that common (in fact, it's very rare), and
2. They never face the potential for violence and death on a daily basis the way police officers do.

Yet fire fighters expect the same benefits as cops.

Fire Depts here are mostly municipal, and union at that.  Look, I see it from a municipal employee viewpoint.  Fire departments get while others suffer for it because, oh, "they go into burning buildings".  Never mind that's rare, and most I've seen sit outside a fire until it's mostly out spraying water at it, or get to the fire late due to their oversized vehicles.  Of the fires I've seen, the cops do far more work keeping people away or actually puting the fire out before the firefighters arrive.

[hbelkins]

I mean, what other job do you actually get paid for sleeping half the time and play cards the other half, and use it as your high-paying second job?

What other job are you required to enter burning buildings?

1. It's not that common (in fact, it's very rare), and
2. They never face the potential for violence and death on a daily basis the way police officers do.

Yet fire fighters expect the same benefits as cops.

Fire Depts here are mostly municipal, and union at that.  Look, I see it from a municipal employee viewpoint.  Fire departments get while others suffer for it because, oh, "they go into burning buildings".  Never mind that's rare, and most I've seen sit outside a fire until it's mostly out spraying water at it, or get to the fire late due to their oversized vehicles.  Of the fires I've seen, the cops do far more work keeping people away or actually puting the fire out before the firefighters arrive.

I didn't really want to believe you meant that first comment, but you doubled down on it. What an asshole...