Corporal punishment...for or against

[Scott5114]

If a school principal ever paddled my kid, I'd march down to the school and rip the principal's head off.

Once upon a time, the opposite was true. If a kid got a spanking at school, they'd get a spanking at home too. The attitude shown above reminds me of that cartoon that made the rounds that show the scene years ago when parents jumped all over their kids for getting bad grades, but now jump all over the teacher when a kid gets a bad grade.

Something like this:



Are there any school districts in Kentucky that still allow spanking? It was allowed when I was in school, and I only got two spankings as a student. When I was in high school, students often had the choice of being paddled or being suspended for some infractions. Most students chose the paddling.

I am not planning on having children, but I would have a similar opinion as Tim, because I simply don't trust school administrators to do their due diligence in determining if punishment is warranted. Lots of schools have "no tolerance" policies that require punishment of all people involved in a fight. If a kid comes up and smacks your kid in the face, your kid gets punished too. School administrators are after the easy fix and aren't interested in enforcing personal responsibility.

My school required parental authorization to perform corporal punishment on a student. My parents initially authorized it but after an incident that administration mishandled, they rescinded the authorization because of their lack of confidence in the school after that particular show of incompetence.

[jakeroot]

Also, I'm slightly offended that, triplemultiplex, you would compare rape to a smack on the ass. I got the latter a whole bunch, and I'm sure it was still miles better than having something shoved in it without my permission.

So molestation always means penetration?  That is a weird assumption.

Rape (noun); Unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.

Really, it depends on the way you define "rape". I've always defined it in the way that would get a man thrown in jail, which is the definition above.

[codyg1985]

Frankly, I don't see it as black and white. I am very much against whipping the belt out and beating the shit out of your kids, but I'm okay with spanking or whatever. As long as it is a calculated maneuver and one that is made with reason and not as an emotional snap decision (kid does something you don't like, you are having a bad day, you take it out on the kid), there's nothing wrong with it.

This is my take on it as well. Beating your kid is wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated. However, I feel that spanking is a tool in the toolbox of parenting that can be used. But it is only okay if done without emotion. Many parents take it too far. There is a very fine line here, and each child will respond to it differently.

There's also the rising amount of kids who act up at restaurants and ruin everyone else's eating experience.  Kids aren't "little angels" like they are popularly thought of these days.

This drives me up the wall. I remember when I was growing up when that behavior was treated with going to the bathroom for a spanking, or outside, or even in public. I don't condone doing it in public, but, again, it can be an effective tool if done properly. Something has changed where it seems more kids act up in public. Why is that? It could be due to a lack of corporal punishment, or it could be due to other factors? Kids may just know how to push the limits of parents, as vdeane suggests.

[vdeane]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

[bandit957]

Kids acting up at restaurants isn't new. It happened in my day. I remember seeing it at least 35 years ago.

I remember a couple times, I acted up at a restaurant, and my parents made me leave and go sit in the car. I think this happened at the Elby's Big Boy in Wheeling once when we went on a trip to see relatives in Philadelphia when I was 6 years old.

[Laura]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

Kids acting up at restaurants isn't new. It happened in my day. I remember seeing it at least 35 years ago.

I remember a couple times, I acted up at a restaurant, and my parents made me leave and go sit in the car. I think this happened at the Elby's Big Boy in Wheeling once when we went on a trip to see relatives in Philadelphia when I was 6 years old.

You've both hit good points. Today, parents are arrested for child neglect for leaving their kids in the car. If they spank or discipline their kid in public, they are often frowned upon and run the risk of someone calling CPS on them. Also, other people are afraid to help discipline communally because they don't want to be yelled at by the parents for correcting their "little angel".

My aunt told me how she took a risk a few weeks ago at a restaurant and yelled at a little girl (about age 6-7) who was disobeying her grandmother. The little girl was running around and not listening and causing a ruckus. She ran near my aunt, who yelled at her "Get back over there and listen to your grandmother and sit down!" The girl was shocked, ran back to her seat, and said nothing. The grandmother said to her "Thank you!" and others around whispered to my aunt "thank you SO much". She ran a HUGE risk saying anything at all, and probably wouldn't have if the girl was with her mom, because she likely would have been yelled at in return.

[codyg1985]

Another reason for the lack of discipline could be a result of a huge swing of the pendulum from the other extreme from parents whose parents were too heavy on whipping or beating them.

[cjk374]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

My ex-wife tried being our son's "friend" instead of his mother.  I has backfired in her face countless times to the point she told me to come get him and bring him home to live with me.  That was the fastest 10-hr round trip I had ever made.

[jakeroot]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

My ex-wife tried being our son's "friend" instead of his mother.  I has backfired in her face countless times to the point she told me to come get him and bring him home to live with me.  That was the fastest 10-hr round trip I had ever made.

I've had a one-to-one relationship with my mom for the last few years, and it's been great for both of us. I approached her a few years ago with a request to be treated more equally, and she was fine with it but only if I acted like an adult. I got a job, started paying bills, and basically she became my friend. Her show of respect for me and my personal goals has made me respect her more for being so brave and allowing me to pursue my own life goals without her own goals for me getting in my way.

Having a friend-relationship when the child is younger won't work, but later in life, around 15 or 16, it's pretty great.

[Duke87]

I don't really think it's a black or white issue because the effects of punishments are not the same for every kid.

This. This a million times.

It's not even just a question of how the kid responds to the punishment, but what lesson they take away from it. Some kids, when hit, may understand why they are being punished and learn a positive lesson. Others kids may not, and this then creates problems.

For this reason I feel like, counterintuitively, the more stubborn a child is, the more it is a bad idea to hit them. Stubborn children will at best have their self-esteem wrecked by the experience and at worst end up getting taught that it is normal and acceptable to be violent when you get angry.

[cjk374]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

My ex-wife tried being our son's "friend" instead of his mother.  I has backfired in her face countless times to the point she told me to come get him and bring him home to live with me.  That was the fastest 10-hr round trip I had ever made.

I've had a one-to-one relationship with my mom for the last few years, and it's been great for both of us. I approached her a few years ago with a request to be treated more equally, and she was fine with it but only if I acted like an adult. I got a job, started paying bills, and basically she became my friend. Her show of respect for me and my personal goals has made me respect her more for being so brave and allowing me to pursue my own life goals without her own goals for me getting in my way.

Having a friend-relationship when the child is younger won't work, but later in life, around 15 or 16, it's pretty great.

I completely agree...Parents need to wait until the child is older to become more of a friend.  When younger, not so much.

[Laura]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

My ex-wife tried being our son's "friend" instead of his mother.  I has backfired in her face countless times to the point she told me to come get him and bring him home to live with me.  That was the fastest 10-hr round trip I had ever made.

I've had a one-to-one relationship with my mom for the last few years, and it's been great for both of us. I approached her a few years ago with a request to be treated more equally, and she was fine with it but only if I acted like an adult. I got a job, started paying bills, and basically she became my friend. Her show of respect for me and my personal goals has made me respect her more for being so brave and allowing me to pursue my own life goals without her own goals for me getting in my way.

Having a friend-relationship when the child is younger won't work, but later in life, around 15 or 16, it's pretty great.

I completely agree...Parents need to wait until the child is older to become more of a friend.  When younger, not so much.

I really wish my parents would have done something like this with me as a teen. I fully believe that "teenage rebellion" comes out of boredom and being treated as a child despite "coming of age". Instead, I was still treated like a child and felt like I couldn't open up to my parents when issues came up.

Two instances: (1) When I found out that one of my friends was cutting and very depressed, I had no idea what to do to help her. I went to my parents for advice. Instead of actually giving me advice, they told me to stop hanging out with her because she was a "bad influence". Frustrated, I kept hanging out with her and started lying to my parents about it. (2) When I went to a party for the first time that had alcohol, I had no idea what to do. I was 16 and didn't want to risk getting into trouble. I called my parents to have them pick me up instead of stay the whole night. I got grounded when I mentioned why I wanted to leave, despite the fact that I had nothing to drink.

At a time when I was trying to figure out the world and was first introduced to new surroundings and needed guidance, I wasn't given any, so I tried to figure it out alone. I made a lot of poor decisions that I knew were poor at the time but did them in the act of rebellion. I already lied to my parents about where I was and who I was with; why not stick it to them and do stuff they wouldn't like?

I don't really blame my parents - I think having access to the internet alone has positively revolutionized my generation and later. We are just more aware of things than our parents and aren't in the bubble they were in. My mom was an introvert in school and had a few close friends. For all she knew, cutting was the new cool thing all the kids are doing. She never went to parties, and my older brother was like her and introverted, too, so she never had to consider what would happen with an extrovert.

I genuinely think though that I would have understood how to be a responsible adult better if I was encouraged to have more responsibilities as a teen. Even if it was just paying for more stuff on my own - that alone would have made me more responsible.

[vdeane]

Yep.  We evolved so that we would leave the nest shortly after puberty hits, not several years after as society currently has it set up.  The whole "age of majority" thing is just an accident of history.  Why is it 18?  Because after Vietnam it was felt that if someone could be drafted, they should be able to vote.  Why could you be drafted then?  Because it was lowered from 21 in one of the wars when we needed more soldiers.  Why was it 21?  Because that was the voting age back then.  Why was that the age back then?  Because that's when the average knight was strong enough to wear a suit of armor, and the tradition stuck.  Yes, really (another fun one: the width of some parts that took astronauts to the moon were determined by the width of a horse's rear end; look it up).

Interesting point about introversion/extroversion affecting things.  I'm an introvert and literally have no clue how most people socialize.  I didn't even realize that high school students went to parties and drank until a couple months before I graduated.  I always knew I was a little naive, but it was quite a shocker to find out how much.  Something similar happened with college, but not to the same extreme (that time it was just finding out about certain groups of people (honors students, computer science majors) and I found out much sooner (sophomore year)).  I still don't really know how most people socialize.

[NE2]

Yes, really (another fun one: the width of some parts that took astronauts to the moon were determined by the width of a horse's rear end; look it up).

False: http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

[cjk374]

I think it's an overall shift in paradigms rather than just corporal punishment.  These days, parents aim to be their kids friend.  While the idea is laudable in and of itself, it becomes problematic if the parents are so lenient that the kids learn that there's no consequences for bad behavior.

My ex-wife tried being our son's "friend" instead of his mother.  I has backfired in her face countless times to the point she told me to come get him and bring him home to live with me.  That was the fastest 10-hr round trip I had ever made.

I've had a one-to-one relationship with my mom for the last few years, and it's been great for both of us. I approached her a few years ago with a request to be treated more equally, and she was fine with it but only if I acted like an adult. I got a job, started paying bills, and basically she became my friend. Her show of respect for me and my personal goals has made me respect her more for being so brave and allowing me to pursue my own life goals without her own goals for me getting in my way.

Having a friend-relationship when the child is younger won't work, but later in life, around 15 or 16, it's pretty great.

I completely agree...Parents need to wait until the child is older to become more of a friend.  When younger, not so much.

I really wish my parents would have done something like this with me as a teen. I fully believe that "teenage rebellion" comes out of boredom and being treated as a child despite "coming of age". Instead, I was still treated like a child and felt like I couldn't open up to my parents when issues came up.

Two instances: (1) When I found out that one of my friends was cutting and very depressed, I had no idea what to do to help her. I went to my parents for advice. Instead of actually giving me advice, they told me to stop hanging out with her because she was a "bad influence". Frustrated, I kept hanging out with her and started lying to my parents about it. (2) When I went to a party for the first time that had alcohol, I had no idea what to do. I was 16 and didn't want to risk getting into trouble. I called my parents to have them pick me up instead of stay the whole night. I got grounded when I mentioned why I wanted to leave, despite the fact that I had nothing to drink.

At a time when I was trying to figure out the world and was first introduced to new surroundings and needed guidance, I wasn't given any, so I tried to figure it out alone. I made a lot of poor decisions that I knew were poor at the time but did them in the act of rebellion. I already lied to my parents about where I was and who I was with; why not stick it to them and do stuff they wouldn't like?

I don't really blame my parents - I think having access to the internet alone has positively revolutionized my generation and later. We are just more aware of things than our parents and aren't in the bubble they were in. My mom was an introvert in school and had a few close friends. For all she knew, cutting was the new cool thing all the kids are doing. She never went to parties, and my older brother was like her and introverted, too, so she never had to consider what would happen with an extrovert.

I genuinely think though that I would have understood how to be a responsible adult better if I was encouraged to have more responsibilities as a teen. Even if it was just paying for more stuff on my own - that alone would have made me more responsible.

One of the most difficult things for me to figure out was exactly when it was time to stop treating my son like a little child and start treating him like a "semi-adult".  A small part of it is that you don't want to admit that your child is getting older.    But you have to eventually get to that realization before it's too late.  I am not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination.  I have many failures I wish I could take back , but it's a learning process for both parent and child. 

I won't be able to relate to him many personal experiences that most parents can.  I lived a sheltered, "boring" life growing up.  No stories about drunken stupors, teen sex, run-ins with the law, or other activities that alot of teens experienced when I was growing up.  The only thing I can tell him is to not do these things.  The personal anecdotes will have to come from his mom or other family members or other adults in our lives.  This is where I feel the most ineffective as a parent.

I spanked him when he was younger, but he got bigger...his is only 100 pounds lighter and 1 inch shorter than I am.  He is 16.  Therefore, his punishments must change.  How I address him about issues and life in general has changed tremendously.  Parenting is a continually evolving process as the child evolves.  There are 2 things I hope that my child learns from his upbringing:  that I love him always, and to do better in life than I have.