Winter maintenance - toll vs. non-toll?

[cpzilliacus]

Where I live, we can go several winter seasons without a big snowstorm, other seasons we get several "big" snowstorms.

I frequently drive  "free" state roads and toll-maintained highways in Maryland.

State winter maintenance is good on the "free" roads, but absolutely obsessively excellent on toll-maintained roads.

Your experiences?

[wxfree]

Here in the DFW area, I don't have much experience with winter driving.  But I do have some numbers.

TxDOT and the North Texas Tollway Authority recently acquired snow plows for this area after the Super Bowl snowstorm mess.  TxDOT's Fort Worth and Dallas districts got a total of 29 plows.  Fort Worth got 15 and Dallas got 14, but they can be combined, since winter weather events often affect only a portion of the area.

NTTA, with a much smaller system, got 9 plows.  Not a whole lot, but a much higher ratio than TxDOT.

We can't run 10 plows down the freeway and clear the whole thing.  The policy is to plow the right lane first and most frequently, but I doubt if many people know that.

[cpzilliacus]

Here in the DFW area, I don't have much experience with winter driving.  But I do have some numbers.

TxDOT and the North Texas Tollway Authority recently acquired snow plows for this area after the Super Bowl snowstorm mess.  TxDOT's Fort Worth and Dallas districts got a total of 29 plows.  Fort Worth got 15 and Dallas got 14, but they can be combined, since winter weather events often affect only a portion of the area.

NTTA, with a much smaller system, got 9 plows.  Not a whole lot, but a much higher ratio than TxDOT.

We can't run 10 plows down the freeway and clear the whole thing.  The policy is to plow the right lane first and most frequently, but I doubt if many people know that.

Here in Maryland, application of chemicals (usually rock salt) and abrasives (sand) can be more important than plowing, especially in the coastal plain and Piedmont parts of the state.

In the mountainous counties (from west to east, Garrett, Allegany, Washington and Frederick), plowing can be of greater importance because of the higher elevations (not that high by Rocky Mountain standards, but high enough to make a significant  difference when it comes to snow instead of rain).

[wxfree]

Here in the DFW area, I don't have much experience with winter driving.  But I do have some numbers.

TxDOT and the North Texas Tollway Authority recently acquired snow plows for this area after the Super Bowl snowstorm mess.  TxDOT's Fort Worth and Dallas districts got a total of 29 plows.  Fort Worth got 15 and Dallas got 14, but they can be combined, since winter weather events often affect only a portion of the area.

NTTA, with a much smaller system, got 9 plows.  Not a whole lot, but a much higher ratio than TxDOT.

We can't run 10 plows down the freeway and clear the whole thing.  The policy is to plow the right lane first and most frequently, but I doubt if many people know that.

Here in Maryland, application of chemicals (usually rock salt) and abrasives (sand) can be more important than plowing, especially in the coastal plain and Piedmont parts of the state.

In the mountainous counties (from west to east, Garrett, Allegany, Washington and Frederick), plowing can be of greater importance because of the higher elevations (not that high by Rocky Mountain standards, but high enough to make a significant  difference when it comes to snow instead of rain).

That's true here, too.  We get more ice than snow.  We mainly don't use salt, though.  TxDOT has some expensive stuff they save for high interchange bridges, but mostly they just use sand and wait for the ice to melt, which usually happens by the afternoon.  I don't know what NTTA does for ice, but whatever it is, they probably do more of it.  The toll roads are so far from me I never go out to them when it's icy.

[NE2]

Florida rarely lets snow accumulate.

[jeffandnicole]

In NJ, I agree with that statement.

[Alps]

In NJ, I agree with that statement.

Which statement? Toll road being obsessive about snow clearance vs. free roads having "good" maintenance "only"? That's the one that seems to apply, although this year NJDOT has been good with the brine (they used to salt, but pretty sure they now brine).

[jeffandnicole]

Yes, they use brine. A LOT of brine.

On the end, I don't know how much money is saved though on salt & overtime. Seems we get called our just as often as before.

And yes, I said we. I'm one of those that drive the trucks.

[Alps]

Yes, they use brine. A LOT of brine.

On the end, I don't know how much money is saved though on salt & overtime. Seems we get called our just as often as before.

And yes, I said we. I'm one of those that drive the trucks.

Oh neat! I'm so glad they don't salt anymore, I hate driving past one of those salt trucks. I have to think they save money with the brine in order to have made the switch - but either way, i appreciate it much more as a driver.

[hbelkins]

Are you saying they brine the roads after the snow falls in lieu of spreading salt?

Kentucky brines as a pre-treatment but not as a treatment after snow starts sticking.

[Brandon]

ISTHA seems to be much better than IDOT at keeping the roads clear during the winter.  Most of the municipalities seem to be better than IDOT at it as well.

[cpzilliacus]

Are you saying they brine the roads after the snow falls in lieu of spreading salt?

Kentucky brines as a pre-treatment but not as a treatment after snow starts sticking.

Maryland SHA and MdTA apply some sort of liquid solution to pavement in advance of freezing precipitation.  May well be brine, but I am not certain about that.

[NJRoadfan]

Maryland SHA and MdTA apply some sort of liquid solution to pavement in advance of freezing precipitation.  May well be brine, but I am not certain about that.

Yes, it is brine (aka salt water). I first saw it used in areas of NC where it rarely snows, now NJ agencies seem to have adopted it as well. The local county DPW still pre-salts the crap out of their roadways, but their road clearing is usually better then NJDOT's.

[MASTERNC]

The Pennsylvania Turnpike has a well-publicized "bare pavement" policy to keep the roads completely clean.  PennDOT usually does a pretty good job but the "bare pavement" objective is not as strict IMO.

[Alps]

NJDOT does brine before the snow and then plows during. But I do not know that they still use salt.

[jeffandnicole]

NJ definitely uses salt.  A lot of salt.  The brine leaves 'lines' in the road, until they get wet.  The salt can leave the road looking white (literally, white as snow), as is the case today in many areas of the state. 

Brine is only used pre-storm.

[vdeane]

NYSTA uses a brine/beet juice mix.

[StogieGuy7]

ISTHA seems to be much better than IDOT at keeping the roads clear during the winter.  Most of the municipalities seem to be better than IDOT at it as well.

ISTHA is consistently among the best anywhere at clearing roads.  On the other hand, IDOT is slower and less effective than the highway departments of many counties.  That's certainly true in Lake County.  In fact, our township is often quicker and more effective and plowing and treating roads than IDOT. 

A "commuter special" produced 3"-4" in N. IL and S. WI this morning and ISTHA had the Tri-State Tollway in far better condition than the IDOT or WisDOT roadways that connect to it.   That seems pretty typical.

[cpzilliacus]

NYSTA uses a brine/beet juice mix.

That stuff is used in some (perhaps not all) of Maryland SHA's districts. 

MdTA also pre-treats, but I don't know if they use brine with beet juice, or just "plain" brine.

[algorerhythms]

The Pennsylvania Turnpike has a well-publicized "bare pavement" policy to keep the roads completely clean.  PennDOT usually does a pretty good job but the "bare pavement" objective is not as strict IMO.

When I was at home in Maryland last Christmas, I took a trip to Uniontown, a day or two after a snowstorm. I was surprised to find the section of US 40 between Keysers Ridge and the PA state line nearly impassible but the PA section up to Uniontown completely spotless. Usually Maryland does a better job than PA, but it clearly didn't that time.

[cpzilliacus]

The Pennsylvania Turnpike has a well-publicized "bare pavement" policy to keep the roads completely clean.  PennDOT usually does a pretty good job but the "bare pavement" objective is not as strict IMO.

When I was at home in Maryland last Christmas, I took a trip to Uniontown, a day or two after a snowstorm. I was surprised to find the section of US 40 between Keysers Ridge and the PA state line nearly impassible but the PA section up to Uniontown completely spotless. Usually Maryland does a better job than PA, but it clearly didn't that time.

That sounds a little unusual (though I don't often get to Western Maryland in the winter).  Maryland SHA is (normally) pretty good about getting  snow cleared off of its network, though they do have priorities - Interstates and other freeways generally come first, in the case you mention above, presumably I-68 would be  higher on the list than U.S. 40.  But I would expect that western segment of U.S. 40 between Keysers Ridge and the Pennsylvania border to be relatively important, about equal to U.S. 219 (and unlike Scenic or Old U.S.40).

[kphoger]

I hate the Kansas Turnpike in inclement weather, but I don't think it's due to a difference in maintenance.  It has, as far as I can tell, more to do with inadequate drainage.

[theline]

The Indiana Toll Road was noted for an almost-obsessively clean road, much like the PA Turnpike. Keeping it clean was quite a challenge, especially in the "lake effect" areas like Laporte County. I'm not so sure if this has been kept up since the road was leased, since I've not had as much occasion lately to drive it in bad weather.

I'd be interested to hear from others that have driven it pre- and post-lease.

[cpzilliacus]

The Indiana Toll Road was noted for an almost-obsessively clean road, much like the PA Turnpike. Keeping it clean was quite a challenge, especially in the "lake effect" areas like Laporte County. I'm not so sure if this has been kept up since the road was leased, since I've not had as much occasion lately to drive it in bad weather.

I'd be interested to hear from others that have driven it pre- and post-lease.

I have not been on it for many years (and not since it was leased to a the private concessionaire), but when I last drove it, the Indiana Toll Road had the absolutely most-perfect and smooth pavement I have ever driven on - anywhere.  It was nearly impossible to "feel" the expansion joints in the bridges, and the blacktop was smooth as a pool table.

[theline]

^^ Yeah, the ITR was a real pleasure to drive. It's not so much anymore. I feel the maintenance had gone down hill somewhat even before the lease.

On the other hand, I may just be another old guy who thinks that everything was better in the good ol' days.