Many communities across the northeast are running out of rock salt

[SteveG1988]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/us/winter-snow-salt-shortage/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/nyregion/slushy-winter-mix-wreaks-havoc-on-new-yorkers-commute.html?_r=0

[Takumi]

What happens when the Northeast runs out of rock salt?

#rocksaltwar

[Alps]

And then I saw a rock!
But it wasn't a rock...
It was a rock... SALT!
Rock salt!

Rock salt!

[Duke87]

What's odd about this story is that salt is cheap and common as dirt. Replenishing depleted stockpiles is not something you'd think would be difficult. Hell, if pickle juice works, why not seawater?

[corco]

Or they could just switch to sand like the west does...less car damage.

[Alps]

What's odd about this story is that salt is cheap and common as dirt. Replenishing depleted stockpiles is not something you'd think would be difficult. Hell, if pickle juice works, why not seawater?

Salt is cheap, until you need megatons of it. Seawater is free, until you need to actually get it out of the sea. I don't know if you've noticed, but states like NJ aren't exactly overflowing with highway money at the moment.

[vdeane]

Sand doesn't create the bare pavement those of us in NY are accustomed to.  Plus it turns into a beach in spring and summer (especially if nobody removes it) and is really annoying to track into houses on shoes.

[corco]

Sand doesn't create the bare pavement those of us in NY are accustomed to.  Plus it turns into a beach in spring and summer (especially if nobody removes it) and is really annoying to track into houses on shoes.

True dat. We got 18 inches of snow last weekend here, and our little town in Montana doesn't have a snowplow but they do sand...liberally. It was a powdery delight to drive in earlier this week if you have a pickup or SUV or something with ground clearance, but it's been 50 degrees the last day and a half and now we a muddy, disgusting mess on the roads, to say the least.

[agentsteel53]

sanded down packed snow is great to drive in.  Montana does it really well.  I was doing 60mph without any problem a few months ago on I-94, US-12, etc.

[Duke87]

The usefulness of sand increases as temperature decreases. Areas that use just sand and have it work for them are areas where you have fresh snow when it's 5-10 degrees out. Around here it's usually fresh snow and 25-30 degrees out... in these conditions the sand isn't particularly helpful since you just end up with sandy slush on the roads, which offers no better traction than clean slush.

Sand is, however, more environmentally friendly since it doesn't introduce salt into streams and ponds that are supposed to contain freshwater.

[KEVIN_224]

I heard a story today on WINS-AM 1010 in New York about one guy on Long Island who uses a combination of salt and beet juice. No joke!

[corco]

The usefulness of sand increases as temperature decreases. Areas that use just sand and have it work for them are areas where you have fresh snow when it's 5-10 degrees out. Around here it's usually fresh snow and 25-30 degrees out... in these conditions the sand isn't particularly helpful since you just end up with sandy slush on the roads, which offers no better traction than clean slush.

Sand is, however, more environmentally friendly since it doesn't introduce salt into streams and ponds that are supposed to contain freshwater.

This exactly- the packed snow/sand combo is admittedly just fine for going 60+ on when it's cold, but once it starts melting it can get nasty. Right now we're going through a freeze/thaw cycle where it's 50 during the day and 20 at night, and our roads are terrible since the city can't afford to plow.

That said! I'd still take the tradeoff of being able to drive a car for ten winters and have it still look like new. Rust is  all but unheard of around these parts, and that's worth a couple days a year of really shitty roads to me.

[jeffandnicole]

Or they could just switch to sand like the west does...less car damage.

Sand is good for traction, but doesn't do much in the way of melting the snow and ice.

Salt is great for melting the snow and ice, but the environment ain't happy about it.

What's odd about this story is that salt is cheap and common as dirt. Replenishing depleted stockpiles is not something you'd think would be difficult.

It comes down to storage & delivery issues.  The salt starts in mines...they have to get it to the bigass depots, where the states, counties & towns get it from, then delivered to their storage sheds.  When everyone runs out at once, there's only so much availability at the bigass depot, and they will deliver to their largest clients first.  Thus, the states are doing well right now with their quantities of salt (quality is another issue though, as I observed today).  The smaller counties and municipalities are going to be the ones in trouble with this current storm.

[Pete from Boston]

The usefulness of sand increases as temperature decreases. Areas that use just sand and have it work for them are areas where you have fresh snow when it's 5-10 degrees out. Around here it's usually fresh snow and 25-30 degrees out... in these conditions the sand isn't particularly helpful since you just end up with sandy slush on the roads, which offers no better traction than clean slush.

Sand is, however, more environmentally friendly since it doesn't introduce salt into streams and ponds that are supposed to contain freshwater.

This exactly- the packed snow/sand combo is admittedly just fine for going 60+ on when it's cold, but once it starts melting it can get nasty. Right now we're going through a freeze/thaw cycle where it's 50 during the day and 20 at night, and our roads are terrible since the city can't afford to plow.

That said! I'd still take the tradeoff of being able to drive a car for ten winters and have it still look like new. Rust is  all but unheard of around these parts, and that's worth a couple days a year of really shitty roads to me.

My truck came from out west and no mechanic here can believe its condition at 17 years old.  This winter is really making noticeable inroads on the rust, though.  It pains me, but such is the northeast.

[Brandon]

sanded down packed snow is great to drive in.  Montana does it really well.  I was doing 60mph without any problem a few months ago on I-94, US-12, etc.

Michigan does it well as well, in the Upper Peninsula.  With 200 inches of snow in an average season, there is no such thing as plowing down to pavement.

As far as the slat shortage, some municipalities here in NE Illinois are feeling it, but others planned ahead or bought more.  Hence, there's a hodge podge of well cleared streets and snow/ice covered ones.

[mass_citizen]

sand is also bad for the environment in that it washes into catch basins and drainage ditches which run to rivers and streams, increasing sedimentation in those water bodies. also leads to clogged drainage structures and increased flooding in the spring.

also pits the paint on the front of your car.

[agentsteel53]

My truck came from out west and no mechanic here can believe its condition at 17 years old.  This winter is really making noticeable inroads on the rust, though.  It pains me, but such is the northeast.

mine's the exact opposite.  it's a '95, and spent most of its life in the Coeur d'Alene area and I'm looking at needing to completely replace the exhaust (muffler, cat converter, and the pipes inbetween) fairly soon.  I suppose Idaho is a salt state, as opposed to a sand state?

[Brandon]

sand is also bad for the environment in that it washes into catch basins and drainage ditches which run to rivers and streams, increasing sedimentation in those water bodies. also leads to clogged drainage structures and increased flooding in the spring.

also pits the paint on the front of your car.

You should see the cleanup operations in Houghton, Michigan at the end of the season.  They use a lot of sand (collected from the stamp sand beaches) and the cleanup is just as awesome to watch as the actual snow removal.

[roadman]

Sand is, however, more environmentally friendly since it doesn't introduce salt into streams and ponds that are supposed to contain freshwater.

Not exactly.  http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/12/19/good-question-why-dont-we-use-sand-on-the-roads-anymore/

[Duke87]

That said! I'd still take the tradeoff of being able to drive a car for ten winters and have it still look like new. Rust is  all but unheard of around these parts, and that's worth a couple days a year of really shitty roads to me.

The issue isn't looking like new. Car bodies these days are far less rust prone than their predecessors. Hell, my fenders are made of plastic. Rust that, I dare you!

The issue is that cars still are built with a lot of vital components exposed on the underside, and those can and will rust. You won't see it, but you'll notice it when something breaks.