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Author Topic: Department of Redundancy Department  (Read 157984 times)

Scott5114

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #675 on: October 18, 2020, 01:05:38 AM »

It's June in that GSV image. They may be turned around to face traffic during the colder months.
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roadfro

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #676 on: October 18, 2020, 07:13:57 PM »



I think you're going the wrong way...

Looking backwards on US 395 southbound just before the Nevada state line at Long Valley Road turnoff

:-D :-D :-D Jesus!!! That's not standard for Nevada, is it?
Might not be standard in Nevada, but that's in California.

And there’s weirdness in the other direction, too. Heading southbound in the northbound lanes there are no WRONG WAY signs, but instead a pair of icy road warning signs. If you are reading those signs, ice might not be your biggest problem.
It's June in that GSV image. They may be turned around to face traffic during the colder months.

Yes, those signs are on swivel supports so they can be turned to face traffic when applicable. The round metal posts painted orange are the main clue—many Caltrans signs for winter weather conditions use similar posts—as opposed to wood supports or other types of metal posts common to most other sign types. Interesting here thought that the signs are turned backwards...in my experience, signs like this are usually turned 90° away from the road surface when not in use instead of 180° backwards.
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sprjus4

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #677 on: October 19, 2020, 12:53:33 AM »

^

Why turn the signs around at all? Just leave them faced towards traffic.
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Scott5114

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #678 on: October 19, 2020, 02:41:46 AM »

Some states have a policy of hiding winter conditions information when not applicable. Oklahoma used to have a standard "Watch for Ice on Bridge" sign that folded in half during the summer months, forming a triangular sign with an anti-littering message. Later, these signs were replaced with an all-year sign reading "Bridge Ices Before Road", which is a statement that's true, if not particularly relevant, year-round.
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US71

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #679 on: October 19, 2020, 09:30:59 AM »

Some states have a policy of hiding winter conditions information when not applicable. Oklahoma used to have a standard "Watch for Ice on Bridge" sign that folded in half during the summer months, forming a triangular sign with an anti-littering message. Later, these signs were replaced with an all-year sign reading "Bridge Ices Before Road", which is a statement that's true, if not particularly relevant, year-round.

Arkansas went to "Bridge may Ice in Cole Weather" a few years ago replacing folding  "Watch for Ice" .  Texas is slowly updating their signs.
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ethanhopkin14

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #680 on: October 19, 2020, 10:17:40 AM »

Some states have a policy of hiding winter conditions information when not applicable. Oklahoma used to have a standard "Watch for Ice on Bridge" sign that folded in half during the summer months, forming a triangular sign with an anti-littering message. Later, these signs were replaced with an all-year sign reading "Bridge Ices Before Road", which is a statement that's true, if not particularly relevant, year-round.

Arkansas went to "Bridge may Ice in Cole Weather" a few years ago replacing folding  "Watch for Ice" .  Texas is slowly updating their signs.

Texas forever, and still has "Watch For Ice on Bridge" signs that fold into a silver triangle during the summer.  Some time 20ish years ago, they decided folding and unfolding them cost too much money so they kept them down year round.  So Texas has signs that fold up, but aren't folded up year round.  Some still get the folded treatment, I guess it depends on the location of the sign to the nearest TxDOT sub station, making it more cost effective. 
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frankenroad

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #681 on: October 19, 2020, 11:23:47 AM »

Ohio signs say "Bridge Ices before Road".   I was traveling with a friend who got very confused because he interpreted "before" as meaning "in front of" instead of "sooner than".
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #682 on: October 19, 2020, 01:32:59 PM »

Missouri doesn't care if your bridge ices, therefore no signs.
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hbelkins

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #683 on: October 19, 2020, 02:17:16 PM »

For years, Kentucky's language was "Bridges Freeze Before Roadway." The MUTCD now calls for "Bridges Ice Before Road."

West Virginia still uses "Watch for Ice on Bridge" with ICE in larger text.
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Scott5114

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #684 on: October 19, 2020, 03:40:17 PM »

I kind of have to wonder what the purpose of the signs is at all. Bridges icing before roads is a physics fact that pretty much anyone driving in winter weather should be aware of. You may as well post signs reading "Larger vehicles take longer to stop" or "Crashing cars into one another causes damage". Perhaps the intent is mostly to notify the driver of the fact that they're simply crossing a bridge, since it can be tricky to tell in a few instances, but given that in non-icy conditions that information isn't super relevant, maybe a less intrusive symbol indication of some kind would be better, like Minnesota's snowplow triangles.

West Virginia still uses "Watch for Ice on Bridge" with ICE in larger text.

This was Oklahoma's format for these signs as well, although I seem to remember them using Series D, and the WV examples I'm seeing use Series C.
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CoreySamson

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #685 on: October 19, 2020, 03:41:47 PM »

Some states have a policy of hiding winter conditions information when not applicable. Oklahoma used to have a standard "Watch for Ice on Bridge" sign that folded in half during the summer months, forming a triangular sign with an anti-littering message. Later, these signs were replaced with an all-year sign reading "Bridge Ices Before Road", which is a statement that's true, if not particularly relevant, year-round.

Arkansas went to "Bridge may Ice in Cole Weather" a few years ago replacing folding  "Watch for Ice" .  Texas is slowly updating their signs.

Texas forever, and still has "Watch For Ice on Bridge" signs that fold into a silver triangle during the summer.  Some time 20ish years ago, they decided folding and unfolding them cost too much money so they kept them down year round.  So Texas has signs that fold up, but aren't folded up year round.  Some still get the folded treatment, I guess it depends on the location of the sign to the nearest TxDOT sub station, making it more cost effective. 

In the Houston area, it seems every single bridge has a "Bridge May Ice In Cold Weather" sign plastered in front of it like Arkansas does, but it doesn't look like they fold from what I've seen. The irony is usually it only gets down to freezing once per year (It's only snowed once and sleeted twice in the 9 years I've lived in the area).

So why even have the signs in the first place? Sure, it does warn the motorists whom have probably have never seen ice on the road before that ice may be present on the bridges, but at the same time, it maybe ices once or twice a decade, and since the signs are posted at every freakin' bridge, drivers treat them as invisible (I know I do). Besides, if it snows or ices, school is basically automatically canceled and everyone just has parties in the snow (or is afraid to go outside).

Here are some of many examples:
#1
#2 (a twofer)
#3
#4
#5
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #686 on: October 19, 2020, 04:05:58 PM »

West Virginia still uses "Watch for Ice on Bridge" with ICE in larger text.

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ethanhopkin14

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #687 on: October 19, 2020, 04:26:08 PM »

Some states have a policy of hiding winter conditions information when not applicable. Oklahoma used to have a standard "Watch for Ice on Bridge" sign that folded in half during the summer months, forming a triangular sign with an anti-littering message. Later, these signs were replaced with an all-year sign reading "Bridge Ices Before Road", which is a statement that's true, if not particularly relevant, year-round.

Arkansas went to "Bridge may Ice in Cole Weather" a few years ago replacing folding  "Watch for Ice" .  Texas is slowly updating their signs.

Texas forever, and still has "Watch For Ice on Bridge" signs that fold into a silver triangle during the summer.  Some time 20ish years ago, they decided folding and unfolding them cost too much money so they kept them down year round.  So Texas has signs that fold up, but aren't folded up year round.  Some still get the folded treatment, I guess it depends on the location of the sign to the nearest TxDOT sub station, making it more cost effective. 

In the Houston area, it seems every single bridge has a "Bridge May Ice In Cold Weather" sign plastered in front of it like Arkansas does, but it doesn't look like they fold from what I've seen. The irony is usually it only gets down to freezing once per year (It's only snowed once and sleeted twice in the 9 years I've lived in the area).

So why even have the signs in the first place? Sure, it does warn the motorists whom have probably have never seen ice on the road before that ice may be present on the bridges, but at the same time, it maybe ices once or twice a decade, and since the signs are posted at every freakin' bridge, drivers treat them as invisible (I know I do). Besides, if it snows or ices, school is basically automatically canceled and everyone just has parties in the snow (or is afraid to go outside).

Here are some of many examples:
#1
#2 (a twofer)
#3
#4
#5

These are the ones I am most familiar with.  This is them in the colder months:

https://goo.gl/maps/7jMJUkA6kfFGvH1T6

The same sign in the warmer months:

https://goo.gl/maps/Ginhe66sqsRwjifR9

As you can see they have some PSA on them about either watching for motorcycles or maintaining your vehicle when folded.  They had nothing on them when I was a kid. 
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US71

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #688 on: October 19, 2020, 04:39:41 PM »

Here's one in Oklahoma where the hinges have rusted so the sign is permanently open

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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #689 on: October 19, 2020, 04:49:36 PM »

I kind of have to wonder what the purpose of the signs is at all. Bridges icing before roads is a physics fact that pretty much anyone driving in winter weather should be aware of. You may as well post signs reading "Larger vehicles take longer to stop" or "Crashing cars into one another causes damage". Perhaps the intent is mostly to notify the driver of the fact that they're simply crossing a bridge, since it can be tricky to tell in a few instances, but given that in non-icy conditions that information isn't super relevant, maybe a less intrusive symbol indication of some kind would be better, like Minnesota's snowplow triangles.

In New England, they tend to appear more in places where the meteorological likelihood of the phenomena happening exists. Mostly on higher speed roads crossing rivers and streams. Due to the moisture underneath, that is likelier to ice up worse than a bridge going over another roadway. For that purpose I feel they are useful, because it warns of the enhanced danger at that particular crossing.

At some point, rather quickly once building a road, a DOT is going to learn what bridges present this problem more often.

An example, with a bridge on a 70 MPH interstate in the middle of a curve just before an exit, https://goo.gl/maps/DaeZ8wnC6rd9VLzc9
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #690 on: October 19, 2020, 08:45:41 PM »

I feel like these signs are necessary to a point, but when they are literally EVERYWHERE, it almost defeats the point. I forget what the phenomena is called, but it is basically like the Boy Who Called Wolf: eventually, you see it enough it just doesn’t register. I feel like there needs to be standards on where these go, that is more than just “X distance from the beginning of bridge”. Like “X distance from the beginning of any bridge structures that cross water, or has a horizontal or vertical alignment change, or is not easily identified, or as determined by speacial circumstance.”
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #691 on: October 19, 2020, 09:17:46 PM »

^

I barely even notice the signs half of time having seen them so regularly. The average motorist probably wouldn't even think twice about what it means or that it's even there.
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #692 on: October 20, 2020, 11:48:47 AM »

I pretty much echo what everyone else is saying. It's pointless to install them on every bridge, because at that point, they quickly lose their impact. DOTs should be more strategic about where they place them.

The two states I frequent the most, that being Illinois and Wisconsin, do not bother with these signs, which I appreciate. Michigan and Indiana on the other hand...
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #693 on: October 20, 2020, 11:57:49 AM »

problem is, if someone spun out on the ice on an unmarked bridge, they'd sue because "You didn't warn me."  Regardless if they were warned 93 other times that week.
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #694 on: October 20, 2020, 03:57:53 PM »

^

I barely even notice the signs half of time having seen them so regularly. The average motorist probably wouldn't even think twice about what it means or that it's even there.
I feel like these signs are necessary to a point, but when they are literally EVERYWHERE, it almost defeats the point. I forget what the phenomena is called, but it is basically like the Boy Who Called Wolf: eventually, you see it enough it just doesn’t register. I feel like there needs to be standards on where these go, that is more than just “X distance from the beginning of bridge”. Like “X distance from the beginning of any bridge structures that cross water, or has a horizontal or vertical alignment change, or is not easily identified, or as determined by speacial circumstance.”

Yesterday I decided to count the number of "Bridge May Ice In Cold Weather" signs on the fastest route between my house and my church 10 miles away. I counted 11. Completely unnecessary when it only ices once every decade or so, as I said earlier. Totally defeats the sign's purpose of being noticed.
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #695 on: October 21, 2020, 10:34:23 AM »

In New England, they tend to appear more in places where the meteorological likelihood of the phenomena happening exists. Mostly on higher speed roads crossing rivers and streams. Due to the moisture underneath, that is likelier to ice up worse than a bridge going over another roadway. For that purpose I feel they are useful, because it warns of the enhanced danger at that particular crossing.

It's not the moisture under a bridge that makes it freeze up, but rather the air. A road surface is insulated against heat loss by the ground under it, but a bridge has cold air on all sides and so it radiates heat in every direction, making it reach a freezing temperature sooner.

In fact, you could imagine a case where a low bridge over a wide expanse of relatively warm water actually freezes less quickly, because the water creates a warmer layer of air than that of the surrounding land area.
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Re: Department of Redundancy Department
« Reply #696 on: October 21, 2020, 12:04:44 PM »

Back in the 1970s, you could tell which bridges on I-64 were equipped with heated decks because they did not have the "Bridge Freezes Before Roadway" signs.  The ones that I remember were the bridge over Kilgore Creek Road (just east of Exit 28 - Milton) and the eastbound deck of the Nitro Bridge (between Exit 44 and Exit 45).  Note that locals referred to the I-64 Nitro Bridge as the Green Bridge, and kept calling it the Green Bridge even after the DOH painted it blue back in the late 1980s.  I'm not sure if the DOH was ever able to equip the westbound lanes with heating elements.  It wasn't too many years before the heating elements quit working and the "Bridge Freezes Before Roadway" signs were reinstated.
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