I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[Beltway]

If the agency awards 118 miles of construction contracts in a few months then the highway can get built in 2 years or so.  Most other turnpikes were built very quickly, by issuing enough bonds to cover the whole cost.

They were also built during a time when OSHA and overtime wasn't a factor. Oh, and there wasn't an existing road in the way which required working alongside roads with 80,000 or 180,000 vehicles passing by at the same time.
The worst of it was basically bulldozing thru existing neighborhoods and cities, especially in North Jersey, and indeed that portion of the roadway took longer to construct.  South of the Brunswicks, they were mostly going thru farmland. 

They would have already acquired the right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

[jeffandnicole]

If the agency awards 118 miles of construction contracts in a few months then the highway can get built in 2 years or so.  Most other turnpikes were built very quickly, by issuing enough bonds to cover the whole cost.

They were also built during a time when OSHA and overtime wasn't a factor. Oh, and there wasn't an existing road in the way which required working alongside roads with 80,000 or 180,000 vehicles passing by at the same time.
The worst of it was basically bulldozing thru existing neighborhoods and cities, especially in North Jersey, and indeed that portion of the roadway took longer to construct.  South of the Brunswicks, they were mostly going thru farmland. 

They would have already acquired the right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

The Turnpike was authorized in 1948.  It was opened in 1951.  So that in itself doesn't fit that timeline.  Per Wikipedia, it claims that the Turnpike was actually made up of two planned state roads the state wanted to built back in the 1930's but didn't have funding for.  Being that they weren't building limited access highways at the time, I'm not sure exactly what was built and how much land they actually purchased.  Based on books about the NJ Turnpike, the NJTA bought most of their land they needed.  Wiki's footnotes are out-of-date and you get a 404 error when clicked. 

Again, back in the 1940's, building roads wasn't the struggle it was today.  The state (or authority) came in, said they wanted the property, and for the most part got it.  Only in the 1960's and 70's did people start fighting back, which set the tone for NJ's most well known highway no-build, the Somerset Freeway.

[Alps]

If the agency awards 118 miles of construction contracts in a few months then the highway can get built in 2 years or so.  Most other turnpikes were built very quickly, by issuing enough bonds to cover the whole cost.

They were also built during a time when OSHA and overtime wasn't a factor. Oh, and there wasn't an existing road in the way which required working alongside roads with 80,000 or 180,000 vehicles passing by at the same time.
The worst of it was basically bulldozing thru existing neighborhoods and cities, especially in North Jersey, and indeed that portion of the roadway took longer to construct.  South of the Brunswicks, they were mostly going thru farmland. 

They would have already acquired the right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

3 months maybe.

[Beltway]

They would have already acquired the [NJTP] right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

3 months maybe.

Acquiring thousands of properties in 3 months, some in urban areas?  I did not work in the R/W acquistion process in my career, but I was aware that most would take far longer than that, and until you get them all you can't award all the construction contracts.

[Alps]

They would have already acquired the [NJTP] right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

3 months maybe.

Acquiring thousands of properties in 3 months, some in urban areas?  I did not work in the R/W acquistion process in my career, but I was aware that most would take far longer than that, and until you get them all you can't award all the construction contracts.

1951 vs. 2018...

[Beltway]

They would have already acquired the [NJTP] right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

3 months maybe.

Acquiring thousands of properties in 3 months, some in urban areas?  I did not work in the R/W acquistion process in my career, but I was aware that most would take far longer than that, and until you get them all you can't award all the construction contracts.

1951 vs. 2018...

I am willing to be proven wrong if someone can find a credible historical cite on the NJTP.

Right-of-way acquisition is a time consuming process, especially when acquiring every parcel on 118 miles of highway.  Yes, 1951 would take less time, but that is still an enormous amount of work to obtain title to all those parcels.

[Alps]

They would have already acquired the [NJTP] right-of-way when the construction contracts were awarded.  R/W acquisition probably took at least 3 years.

3 months maybe.

Acquiring thousands of properties in 3 months, some in urban areas?  I did not work in the R/W acquistion process in my career, but I was aware that most would take far longer than that, and until you get them all you can't award all the construction contracts.

1951 vs. 2018...

I am willing to be proven wrong if someone can find a credible historical cite on the NJTP.

Right-of-way acquisition is a time consuming process, especially when acquiring every parcel on 118 miles of highway.  Yes, 1951 would take less time, but that is still an enormous amount of work to obtain title to all those parcels.

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ credible enough for you?
Talks began April 1949. Just talks. Ground broke in January 1950. That's 8 months max, and probably less. I'm sure a few bullish parcels held out longer, but no question that it was relatively easy to condemn all those properties back then - the precedent was set to just go ahead and take them.

[ixnay]

I am willing to be proven wrong if someone can find a credible historical cite on the NJTP.

Right-of-way acquisition is a time consuming process, especially when acquiring every parcel on 118 miles of highway.  Yes, 1951 would take less time, but that is still an enormous amount of work to obtain title to all those parcels.

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ credible enough for you?
Talks began April 1949. Just talks. Ground broke in January 1950. That's 8 months max, and probably less. I'm sure a few bullish parcels held out longer, but no question that it was relatively easy to condemn all those properties back then - the precedent was set to just go ahead and take them.

Or Looking for America on the New Jersey Turnrpike by Rutgers profs Michael Rockland and Angus Gillespie, which is cited in Alps' link's list of sources and discusses the condemnation issues in Elizabeth?  (The NJTPA considered a waterfront route in Elizabeth but that would have condemned factories, some of whose owners threatened to leave New Jersey if the plants went.  So several blocks of residences went instead.)

https://www.amazon.com/Looking-America-New-Jersey-Turnpike/dp/0813519551

ixnay

[Beltway]

I am willing to be proven wrong if someone can find a credible historical cite on the NJTP.
Right-of-way acquisition is a time consuming process, especially when acquiring every parcel on 118 miles of highway.  Yes, 1951 would take less time, but that is still an enormous amount of work to obtain title to all those parcels.

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ credible enough for you?
Talks began April 1949. Just talks. Ground broke in January 1950. That's 8 months max, and probably less. I'm sure a few bullish parcels held out longer, but no question that it was relatively easy to condemn all those properties back then - the precedent was set to just go ahead and take them.

Acquiring property has always been a tedious process at least in modern times (such as the last 150 years in the U.S.).  With right-of-way first the agency makes an offer on the parcel, and only when the owner refuses the offer does condemnation take place.

"About 90 major construction contracts and more than 40 miscellaneous contracts were let during the course of the projects; more than 110 contractors shared this work.  There were more than 450 competitive bids received."

It is easy enough to see how the construction proceeded so quickly.  I don't see anything in the article about details of the right-of-way acquisition process.  It might take 100 right-of-way agents working fulltime to do all that work.  In the 1940s the DOTs had relatively little experience to date on this process.

[SignBridge]

Another factor no one has mentioned is that in the immediate post WW II era there was still a can do kind of spirit in this country left over from World War II. That mentality had developed during the war of virtually doing the impossible; getting things done at a speed that would be unheard of today.

That same spirit and sense of efficiency enabled the community of Levittown Long Island to be built in about three years from 1947 to 1950. This was America's first mass produced suburb and 17,000 new houses were built in that short time to satisfy the incredible demand for new housing after the War.

By about ten years later, that spirit had evaporated and we settled into being a complacent society that now takes forever to accomplish anything, except when there's lots of money to be made by corporate giants.

[roadman65]

Another factor no one has mentioned is that in the immediate post WW II era there was still a can do kind of spirit in this country left over from World War II. That mentality had developed during the war of virtually doing the impossible; getting things done at a speed that would be unheard of today.

That same spirit and sense of efficiency enabled the community of Levittown Long Island to be built in about three years from 1947 to 1950. This was America's first mass produced suburb and 17,000 new houses were built in that short time to satisfy the incredible demand for new housing after the War.

By about ten years later, that spirit had evaporated and we settled into being a complacent society that now takes forever to accomplish anything, except when there's lots of money to be made by corporate giants.

Got that one right!   When Walmart wants to put up a store, they can be allowed to build fast, but to update the roads to accommodate the shoppers will take years.   Big businesses come first always!

However, look how long it took to rebuild the World Trade Center Post 9/11!  That should have been done sooner that it did, but we drag our ass.  A big superpower like America is slow to just about everything! 

Enough rant on that before it leads to politics and this thread gets locked, but agree with you in the past we got simple projects done and fast.  The whole turnpike was built way faster than this interchange project is taking for sure.

[Beltway]

Another factor no one has mentioned is that in the immediate post WW II era there was still a can do kind of spirit in this country left over from World War II. That mentality had developed during the war of virtually doing the impossible; getting things done at a speed that would be unheard of today.
That same spirit and sense of efficiency enabled the community of Levittown Long Island to be built in about three years from 1947 to 1950. This was America's first mass produced suburb and 17,000 new houses were built in that short time to satisfy the incredible demand for new housing after the War.
By about ten years later, that spirit had evaporated and we settled into being a complacent society that now takes forever to accomplish anything, except when there's lots of money to be made by corporate giants.

That is not really very fair ... between the Great Depression, and WWII with its near shutdown of the civilian economy for four years, after the war there was enormous pent-up demand to replace obsolete housing and obsolete highways.   Traffic became intolerable in many places right after WW II.  Then 70% of the Interstate mileage was built 1956-1970, and that only slowed down due to NEPA in 1969 and major cost inflation.  We current have over $100 billion per year of public highway construction and maintenance in the U.S.

[theroadwayone]

Another factor no one has mentioned is that in the immediate post WW II era there was still a can do kind of spirit in this country left over from World War II. That mentality had developed during the war of virtually doing the impossible; getting things done at a speed that would be unheard of today.

That same spirit and sense of efficiency enabled the community of Levittown Long Island to be built in about three years from 1947 to 1950. This was America's first mass produced suburb and 17,000 new houses were built in that short time to satisfy the incredible demand for new housing after the War.

By about ten years later, that spirit had evaporated and we settled into being a complacent society that now takes forever to accomplish anything, except when there's lots of money to be made by corporate giants.

Got that one right!   When Walmart wants to put up a store, they can be allowed to build fast, but to update the roads to accommodate the shoppers will take years.   Big businesses come first always!

However, look how long it took to rebuild the World Trade Center Post 9/11!  That should have been done sooner that it did, but we drag our ass.  A big superpower like America is slow to just about everything! 

Enough rant on that before it leads to politics and this thread gets locked, but agree with you in the past we got simple projects done and fast.  The whole turnpike was built way faster than this interchange project is taking for sure.

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

[AMLNet49]

Another factor no one has mentioned is that in the immediate post WW II era there was still a can do kind of spirit in this country left over from World War II. That mentality had developed during the war of virtually doing the impossible; getting things done at a speed that would be unheard of today.

That same spirit and sense of efficiency enabled the community of Levittown Long Island to be built in about three years from 1947 to 1950. This was America's first mass produced suburb and 17,000 new houses were built in that short time to satisfy the incredible demand for new housing after the War.

By about ten years later, that spirit had evaporated and we settled into being a complacent society that now takes forever to accomplish anything, except when there's lots of money to be made by corporate giants.

Got that one right!   When Walmart wants to put up a store, they can be allowed to build fast, but to update the roads to accommodate the shoppers will take years.   Big businesses come first always!

However, look how long it took to rebuild the World Trade Center Post 9/11!  That should have been done sooner that it did, but we drag our ass.  A big superpower like America is slow to just about everything! 

Enough rant on that before it leads to politics and this thread gets locked, but agree with you in the past we got simple projects done and fast.  The whole turnpike was built way faster than this interchange project is taking for sure.

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

[SteveG1988]

Another factor no one has mentioned is that in the immediate post WW II era there was still a can do kind of spirit in this country left over from World War II. That mentality had developed during the war of virtually doing the impossible; getting things done at a speed that would be unheard of today.

That same spirit and sense of efficiency enabled the community of Levittown Long Island to be built in about three years from 1947 to 1950. This was America's first mass produced suburb and 17,000 new houses were built in that short time to satisfy the incredible demand for new housing after the War.

By about ten years later, that spirit had evaporated and we settled into being a complacent society that now takes forever to accomplish anything, except when there's lots of money to be made by corporate giants.

Got that one right!   When Walmart wants to put up a store, they can be allowed to build fast, but to update the roads to accommodate the shoppers will take years.   Big businesses come first always!

However, look how long it took to rebuild the World Trade Center Post 9/11!  That should have been done sooner that it did, but we drag our ass.  A big superpower like America is slow to just about everything! 

Enough rant on that before it leads to politics and this thread gets locked, but agree with you in the past we got simple projects done and fast.  The whole turnpike was built way faster than this interchange project is taking for sure.

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

No, because at the state level there will still be regulations on this, and once President spray tan is out of office, the next president can reverse it.

[Beltway]

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

Strawman alert!  These environmental regulations are a result of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) which was enacted by the U.S. Congress, and the only way to "get rid of it" would be by legislation of the the U.S. Congress.

[Rothman]

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

Strawman alert!  These environmental regulations are a result of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) which was enacted by the U.S. Congress, and the only way to "get rid of it" would be by legislation of the the U.S. Congress.

Nah.  Regulations can be changed at whim by the Executive Department.  There might be a court case claiming the President has not created regulations in compliance with legislation, but regulations are quite under the President's control.

[J N Winkler]

I am willing to be proven wrong if someone can find a credible historical cite on the NJTP.
Right-of-way acquisition is a time consuming process, especially when acquiring every parcel on 118 miles of highway.  Yes, 1951 would take less time, but that is still an enormous amount of work to obtain title to all those parcels.

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/nj-turnpike/ credible enough for you?

Talks began April 1949. Just talks. Ground broke in January 1950. That's 8 months max, and probably less. I'm sure a few bullish parcels held out longer, but no question that it was relatively easy to condemn all those properties back then - the precedent was set to just go ahead and take them.

Acquiring property has always been a tedious process at least in modern times (such as the last 150 years in the U.S.).  With right-of-way first the agency makes an offer on the parcel, and only when the owner refuses the offer does condemnation take place.

"About 90 major construction contracts and more than 40 miscellaneous contracts were let during the course of the projects; more than 110 contractors shared this work.  There were more than 450 competitive bids received."

It is easy enough to see how the construction proceeded so quickly.  I don't see anything in the article about details of the right-of-way acquisition process.  It might take 100 right-of-way agents working fulltime to do all that work.  In the 1940s the DOTs had relatively little experience to date on this process.

One factor we are not considering is the law at the time as to right of entry.  Many states had laws that allowed the contracts to be let and the bulldozers to start rolling while right-of-way negotiations were still underway.  This is one of the factors cited in the relatively short completion time for the original 1940 length of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

[Beltway]

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

Strawman alert!  These environmental regulations are a result of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) which was enacted by the U.S. Congress, and the only way to "get rid of it" would be by legislation of the the U.S. Congress.

Nah.  Regulations can be changed at whim by the Executive Department.  There might be a court case claiming the President has not created regulations in compliance with legislation, but regulations are quite under the President's control.

Baloney, any way you slice it.  NEPA cannot be changed by the Executive Department.

[Beltway]

One factor we are not considering is the law at the time as to right of entry.  Many states had laws that allowed the contracts to be let and the bulldozers to start rolling while right-of-way negotiations were still underway.  This is one of the factors cited in the relatively short completion time for the original 1940 length of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

They couldn't begin construction in parcels that they didn't have title to.  That would delay having a highway that was usable by traffic.

[J N Winkler]

They couldn't begin construction in parcels that they didn't have title to.  That would delay having a highway that was usable by traffic.

My understanding is that while the Constitution requires fair compensation for land taken by eminent domain, it does not explicitly require that the compensation be paid before the land is taken.  The mechanism I have read of is a 30-day notice of entry, at the expiry of which the state (or its agents) could enter the property and begin construction whether or not agreement had been reached.

[Beltway]

They couldn't begin construction in parcels that they didn't have title to.  That would delay having a highway that was usable by traffic.

My understanding is that while the Constitution requires fair compensation for land taken by eminent domain, it does not explicitly require that the compensation be paid before the land is taken.  The mechanism I have read of is a 30-day notice of entry, at the expiry of which the state (or its agents) could enter the property and begin construction whether or not agreement had been reached.

Each state would have its own set of laws governing how the state acquires right-of-way.
The U.S. Constitution is only a general framework on this matter.

I would hope that every state had and has laws in place that would prevent that scheme.

[Rothman]

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

Strawman alert!  These environmental regulations are a result of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) which was enacted by the U.S. Congress, and the only way to "get rid of it" would be by legislation of the the U.S. Congress.

Nah.  Regulations can be changed at whim by the Executive Department.  There might be a court case claiming the President has not created regulations in compliance with legislation, but regulations are quite under the President's control.

Baloney, any way you slice it.  NEPA cannot be changed by the Executive Department.

No, it can't change the legislation, but it does have a lot of control over the regulations that implement the law and how strictly the law is implemented.  That isn't baloney, unless you don't understand the difference between legislation and regulation.

[Beltway]

Am I right in saying that most of the work involves those daft environmental impact reports that are Yellow Pages-thick?

My question is: will Trump's whole "getting rid of environmental regulations" campaign mean that these lengthy studies can be avoided and new construction can proceed with throwback speed?

Strawman alert!  These environmental regulations are a result of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) which was enacted by the U.S. Congress, and the only way to "get rid of it" would be by legislation of the the U.S. Congress.

Nah.  Regulations can be changed at whim by the Executive Department.  There might be a court case claiming the President has not created regulations in compliance with legislation, but regulations are quite under the President's control.

Baloney, any way you slice it.  NEPA cannot be changed by the Executive Department.

No, it can't change the legislation, but it does have a lot of control over the regulations that implement the law and how strictly the law is implemented.  That isn't baloney, unless you don't understand the difference between legislation and regulation.

When you have an overreaching and activist federal judiciary, someone files a lawsuit against the Executive Department, and try to get a federal judge to legislate from the bench and overrule; even if the district court issues an unconstitutional ruling then the only recourse is to appeal to the appelate court, and if they legislate from the bench, then the only recourse is to appeal to the Supreme Court, and they only hear about 2% of the appeals that are sent to them.

[vdeane]

We are a Common Law country.  That means that laws passed by the legislature are broad frameworks.  The executive and judiciary provide the specifics.  If you don't like it, advocate that we switch to Civil Law.