I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[famartin]

Also, if we are going to insist on keeping local cities... why does the northbound Turnpike never say anything but New York?  Why not Trenton or at least Newark?  Newark is the biggest city in NJ and the Turnpike goes right through it, but heading northbound, until you got to the exit, you'd never know it.  Meanwhile, the turnpike passes quite a few miles east of Trenton but its the prominent southbound city.  Doesn't make sense.  Philly makes as much sense for southbound as New York does for northbound.

[NE2]

No one said it wasn't owned by the PTC, but that calling that section the Turnpike is like saying to take PA 300 to Lancaster.

Which is flat out wrong. It's State Route 300, not Pennsylvania Traffic Route 300. There's nothing wrong about saying that the road from the new interchange to the Delaware River is part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

[Beltway]

There's nothing wrong about saying that the road from the new interchange to the Delaware River is part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

Always has been, ever since its inception in 1956.

[SignBridge]

J&N suggested above that the southbound NJT destinations at exit-6 could reasonably use state names were it not for the MUTCD control-city requirement. So if it said "Delaware-Maryland", yeah that would certainly be reasonable at that location.

Kind of like that old sign entering the southbound Turnpike at Exit-16 from the Lincoln Tunnel that said "Pa-Del-Md". How I miss that old sign that was there for decades.

[jp the roadgeek]

As far as control cities, I don't like the fact that Penn Turnpike is used on the control city line.  Also not a fan of using Philadelphia as a control city northbound Exit 6 when most traffic either exited at Exit 3 or 4, or took 295 coming from the Delaware Bridge.  The left would've been how I did it northbound, and the right would be the southbound signage




As for on the Turnpike, here is how I would have the control cities

NB Exits 1-14: Newark/New York City
Exit 14 North: Fort Lee/GW Bridge

SB: GWB-Exit 14: Newark/Trenton
Exit 14-8: Trenton/Camden
Exit 7A-7 & Exit 5-3: Camden/Wilmington
Exit 6 and south of Exit 3: Wilmington/Baltimore


I'd also like to see PennDOT make some changes in Center City at the I-95/I-676 junction.  For pull through BGS's on I-95, and for Exit BGS's on 676, I would like to see NB signage say "95 North/New York/Trenton"  Southbound, I would like to see Chester bypassed and have the signage say "95 South TO (in symbol form) Philadelphia Int'l Airport/Wilmington/Baltimore
" to better serve long distance travelers passing through or leaving Center City.  If Boston can use New York on an I-90 sign in Boston, then Philly can use Baltimore

[famartin]

As far as control cities, I don't like the fact that Penn Turnpike is used on the control city line.  Also not a fan of using Philadelphia as a control city northbound Exit 6 when most traffic either exited at Exit 3 or 4, or took 295 coming from the Delaware Bridge.  The left would've been how I did it northbound, and the right would be the southbound signage




As for on the Turnpike, here is how I would have the control cities

NB Exits 1-14: Newark/New York City
Exit 14 North: Fort Lee/GW Bridge

SB: GWB-Exit 14: Newark/Trenton
Exit 14-8: Trenton/Camden
Exit 7A-7 & Exit 5-3: Camden/Wilmington
Exit 6 and south of Exit 3: Wilmington/Baltimore


I'd also like to see PennDOT make some changes in Center City at the I-95/I-676 junction.  For pull through BGS's on I-95, and for Exit BGS's on 676, I would like to see NB signage say "95 North/New York/Trenton"  Southbound, I would like to see Chester bypassed and have the signage say "95 South TO (in symbol form) Philadelphia Int'l Airport/Wilmington/Baltimore
" to better serve long distance travelers passing through or leaving Center City.  If Boston can use New York on an I-90 sign in Boston, then Philly can use Baltimore

I do agree with the idea that the Penn Turnpike blazer (versus the word Penn Turnpike) should have been used, and that Harrisburg is a better control city.  That said, I think the usage of Philadelphia is fine for the northbound exit, if only because, lets face it, the number of people going that way (NB NJTP to SB 95) is low to begin with.  Valley Forge is kinda obscure, by comparison, with no reflection on where I-95 goes.

Also, I think its fine that PennDOT has yet to adopt Baltimore anywhere, considering that Maryland pretends Philly doesn't exist on I-95 northbound.  When Maryland signs Philly as the prominent next stop on I-95, then PennDOT can sign Baltimore.

I've already explained why Philly should be used for I-95/NJTP southbound, so I won't rehash that...

[roadman65]

Regarding control cities, isn't Wilmington an official I-95 control city? I think it's appropriate, though I agree that Baltimore would be useful in addition.

Give the poor connection between the southern turnpike and the southern NJ freeways, I'd argue Camden isn't the greatest choice, though. I'd personally like to see Wilmington and Baltimore used for south of Exit 6.

I'd also suggest that Philadelphia is now more appropriate as the main southbound control city north of Exit 6. While I personally enjoy seeing Trenton listed, it's more or less bypassed now.

However, this change should be in concert with the MDTA updating it's northbound I-95 control to include Philadelphia.

Philly should now be used from Exit 14 southward, or even both Trenton and Philadelphia as it does go through to there more directly.

Using Wilmington from Exit 6 shows traffic that the NJ Turnpike is a bypass to the next major city beyond Philly for I-95, so that one is a great call by the NJTA.

I do agree though that having Penn Turnpike used on a line instead of in shield is a waste of sign space.  Should be Harrisburg and NB should not even include it at all.  Ditto to Exit 3 spelling out the ACE.  It should be Bellmawr- Camden and Philadelphia on supplemental signs.  The ACE shield should be used in conjunction with NJ 168, but like another thread it most likely is the fact that the shield the ACE uses is not that catchy as the NJ Turnpike or Garden State Parkway is.  So the ACE on a supplemental would work best there.

However, I am glad that Woodbury was finally removed SB at Exit 3 as it was not served directly by that particular interchange where you had other nearby cities or towns that should have been used.

[famartin]

Regarding control cities, isn't Wilmington an official I-95 control city? I think it's appropriate, though I agree that Baltimore would be useful in addition.

Give the poor connection between the southern turnpike and the southern NJ freeways, I'd argue Camden isn't the greatest choice, though. I'd personally like to see Wilmington and Baltimore used for south of Exit 6.

I'd also suggest that Philadelphia is now more appropriate as the main southbound control city north of Exit 6. While I personally enjoy seeing Trenton listed, it's more or less bypassed now.

However, this change should be in concert with the MDTA updating it's northbound I-95 control to include Philadelphia.

Philly should now be used from Exit 14 southward, or even both Trenton and Philadelphia as it does go through to there more directly.

Using Wilmington from Exit 6 shows traffic that the NJ Turnpike is a bypass to the next major city beyond Philly for I-95, so that one is a great call by the NJTA.

I do agree though that having Penn Turnpike used on a line instead of in shield is a waste of sign space.  Should be Harrisburg and NB should not even include it at all.  Ditto to Exit 3 spelling out the ACE.  It should be Bellmawr- Camden and Philadelphia on supplemental signs.  The ACE shield should be used in conjunction with NJ 168, but like another thread it most likely is the fact that the shield the ACE uses is not that catchy as the NJ Turnpike or Garden State Parkway is.  So the ACE on a supplemental would work best there.

However, I am glad that Woodbury was finally removed SB at Exit 3 as it was not served directly by that particular interchange where you had other nearby cities or towns that should have been used.

I'm actually starting to think that the reason that neither the PA Turnpike blazer, nor the ACE blazer, is used on NJTA signage is because, they just don't do that.  It occurs to me that I am not sure of any other blazers on their signs (perhaps the PIP blazer is the one exception).  Certainly the PA Turnpike blazer is familiar to Pennsylvanians, as familiar as the NJTP/GSP blazers are to New Jerseyans.

[Beltway]

I do agree with the idea that the Penn Turnpike blazer (versus the word Penn Turnpike) should have been used, and that Harrisburg is a better control city.  That said, I think the usage of Philadelphia is fine for the northbound exit, if only because, lets face it, the number of people going that way (NB NJTP to SB 95) is low to begin with.  Valley Forge is kinda obscure, by comparison, with no reflection on where I-95 goes.

Valley Forge is part of the signing to Harrisburg and west on I-276.  Having lived near Valley Forge I would not consider it to be obscure for people familiar with SE PA or PA in general; and for people that aren't familiar with PA, Harrisburg probably would not be any less obscure than Valley Forge.  Valley Forge is not a city but it is a pretty famous place and is known to be just west of Philadelphia.

[roadman65]

I always thought Valley Forge was strange to use on I-76 in Philadelphia considering that I-76 continues to Harrisburg, the next major city and the state capital.

[famartin]

I always thought Valley Forge was strange to use on I-76 in Philadelphia considering that I-76 continues to Harrisburg, the next major city and the state capital.

Kinda similar to the way NJDOT uses Del Water Gap for I-80 west...

Having lived out of NJ for a while, I realize now how stupid some of NJDOT's control cities are.

[roadman65]

I always thought Valley Forge was strange to use on I-76 in Philadelphia considering that I-76 continues to Harrisburg, the next major city and the state capital.

Kinda similar to the way NJDOT uses Del Water Gap for I-80 west...

Having lived out of NJ for a while, I realize now how stupid some of NJDOT's control cities are.

Can't be as bad as Bear Mountain in NY.  Both are part of mountain ranges, but one could argue that Delaware Water Gap is the town located where the I-80 bridge is on the PA side, but still why is not Stroudsburg not used instead.

I still cannot figure out why the Garden State Parkway uses Secaucus over New York City for the new 153 signs on the GSP.  Considering the Lincoln Tunnel was used for a long time and now the MUTCD forbids it, that NYC would have took its place. Even Clifton would be better.

[jp the roadgeek]

I used Valley Forge because it's one of those major junctions.  I-76, I-276, US 202, and US 422 all meet there, so it's kind of a major crossroads.  Using Philly NB at Exit 6 isn't 1/100th as bad as MassDOT using NYC for Exit 9 EB on the Pike.

Here's a couple of signs I came up with for Exit 3.  I used Camden/Philadelphia NB and Camden/AC southbound.  I figured AC bound traffic from Delaware would take the US 40 exit just over the Delaware Bridge.  Note: I used mileage based exit numbers.


As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of using trailblazers instead of wording for highways. 

[Beltway]

I used Valley Forge because it's one of those major junctions.  I-76, I-276, US 202, and US 422 all meet there, so it's kind of a major crossroads. 

That too.  It is also the historic name of the Turnpike interchange there.  King of Prussia is closer to the junction and might be a better control city today, but was a minor village when the Turnpike was originally built.

[famartin]

A casual glance thru signage via Google street view suggests that the most common place where Valley Forge is used as a control city is I-76 westbound heading out of Philly.  Its used a little bit on the turnpike entrances, but Philly (eastbound) and Harrisburg (westbound) seem more favored overall.  Plymouth Meeting is used by I-476 northbound, Philadelphia by I-476 southbound.

[PHLBOS]

J&N suggested above that the southbound NJT destinations at exit-6 could reasonably use state names were it not for the MUTCD control-city requirement. So if it said "Delaware-Maryland", yeah that would certainly be reasonable at that location.

Previous generation signage approaching Exit 6 had Camden/Delaware listed for the southbound NJ Turnpike panels.  Needless to say, Wilmington was chosen en lieu of Delaware for the new signs per the more stringent MUTCD standards.

I always thought Valley Forge was strange to use on I-76 in Philadelphia considering that I-76 continues to Harrisburg, the next major city and the state capital.

Valley Forge is used because such is the name of the toll plaza where the Schuylkill Expressway (early on, such wasn't always part of I-76) meets the PA Turnpike.  That said, using such for the Turnpike Connector (which is now I-95) is not appropriate IMHO.

[briantroutman]

Agreed that Valley Forge is totally inappropriate to be signed from the New Jersey Turnpike. If you look upthread at some of the photos that have been posted of the new interchange signage in Pennsylvania, you'll notice that the PTC has made what I think is the appropriate signing decision: "I-276 WEST - Harrisburg" . No mention of Valley Forge or any other point along the way.

In my opinion, Valley Forge and Plymouth Meeting are both place names that have no business being used as Interstate control cities. Out of Center City, I-76 WB should be signed "Harrisburg" ; I-476 NB should be signed "Allentown" –all the way down to I-95. Locals–very few of whom are actually traveling to Valley Forge or Plymouth Meeting anyway–know the metropolitan freeway network and don't need control cities to guide them.

[PHLBOS]

In my opinion, Valley Forge and Plymouth Meeting are both place names that have no business being used as Interstate control cities. Out of Center City, I-76 WB should be signed "Harrisburg" ; I-476 NB should be signed "Allentown " –all the way down to I-95. Locals–very few of whom are actually traveling to Valley Forge or Plymouth Meeting anyway–know the metropolitan freeway network and don't need control cities to guide them.

There was one pull-through BGS along I-476 northbound at the I-76 interchange that listed Allentown as a control city but that was prior to the Dec. 1991 opening of I-476 south of I-76 so motorists never saw it unless they looked up at the I-476 overpass.  The sign was removed once the the lower part of I-476 opened.

PennDOT likely chose to use Plymouth Meeting for a northbound 476 control city due to it being the northern terminus of that route; prior to the 1992 extension to the PA Turnpike (I-276 & then-PA 9) as well as the 1996 redesignation along the Northeast Extension.

[ipeters61]

In my opinion, Valley Forge and Plymouth Meeting are both place names that have no business being used as Interstate control cities. Out of Center City, I-76 WB should be signed "Harrisburg" ; I-476 NB should be signed "Allentown " –all the way down to I-95. Locals–very few of whom are actually traveling to Valley Forge or Plymouth Meeting anyway–know the metropolitan freeway network and don't need control cities to guide them.

There was one pull-through BGS along I-476 northbound at the I-76 interchange that listed Allentown as a control city but that was prior to the Dec. 1991 opening of I-476 south of I-76 so motorists never saw it unless they looked up at the I-476 overpass.  The sign was removed once the the lower part of I-476 opened.

PennDOT likely chose to use Plymouth Meeting for a northbound 476 control city due to it being the northern terminus of that route; prior to the 1992 extension to the PA Turnpike (I-276 & then-PA 9) as well as the 1996 redesignation along the Northeast Extension.

My thinking is that I-476 North uses Plymouth Meeting as the control city and I-76 West uses Valley Forge as the control city because those are the last points where you can exit before paying a toll.  I know it sounds silly, but I just imagine it as a fair warning to those who weren't expecting to pay a toll.

Granted, I know DelDOT uses Dover as the destination on DE-1 south of the Christiana Mall/I-95 complex, but then again I would imagine nobody going to the beach (most of DE-1's summer traffic) would have any clue what "Delaware City" (a small town of 1,000 people) is.  Plus, DelDOT seems to favor using municipalities on BGS's if they can (the vast majority of DE is unincorporated).

[jp the roadgeek]

Speaking of DE 1, one thing I would like to see is that for Exit 4A SB on I-95 only, DelDOT uses Dover and Norfolk as control cities, or at least puts Norfolk on supplemental signage.  It's a faster and more direct way than going down 95 to 64.

[vdeane]

I'm actually starting to think that the reason that neither the PA Turnpike blazer, nor the ACE blazer, is used on NJTA signage is because, they just don't do that.  It occurs to me that I am not sure of any other blazers on their signs (perhaps the PIP blazer is the one exception).  Certainly the PA Turnpike blazer is familiar to Pennsylvanians, as familiar as the NJTP/GSP blazers are to New Jerseyans.

The new MUTCD signage does use the GSP shield in addition to the text.  I wonder the the PIP shields northbound were a carryover from NJDOT signage.  The southbound one would be a PANYNJ install.

[jeffandnicole]

I used Valley Forge because it's one of those major junctions.  I-76, I-276, US 202, and US 422 all meet there, so it's kind of a major crossroads.  Using Philly NB at Exit 6 isn't 1/100th as bad as MassDOT using NYC for Exit 9 EB on the Pike.

Here's a couple of signs I came up with for Exit 3.  I used Camden/Philadelphia NB and Camden/AC southbound.  I figured AC bound traffic from Delaware would take the US 40 exit just over the Delaware Bridge.  Note: I used mileage based exit numbers.


As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of using trailblazers instead of wording for highways. 

While shorter in mileage, US 40 is not necessarily faster, and can definitely be more confusing and frustrating.  Most everyday travelers appear to prefer using the NJ Turnpike to Exit 3 for Atlantic City.

While it's not a lot, there's a surprising number of people that take the Turnpike from Exit 2 to Exit 3 to get to Philadelphia.  This is one of those things I could never figure out.

[famartin]

I'm actually starting to think that the reason that neither the PA Turnpike blazer, nor the ACE blazer, is used on NJTA signage is because, they just don't do that.  It occurs to me that I am not sure of any other blazers on their signs (perhaps the PIP blazer is the one exception).  Certainly the PA Turnpike blazer is familiar to Pennsylvanians, as familiar as the NJTP/GSP blazers are to New Jerseyans.

The new MUTCD signage does use the GSP shield in addition to the text.  I wonder the the PIP shields northbound were a carryover from NJDOT signage.  The southbound one would be a PANYNJ install.

Yes, but the GSP is a NJTA road, so it doesn't count in this context.

[AMLNet49]

When I returned, I took I-95 North thru the new interchange.  I noticed nothing referencing the PA Turnpike whatsoever for their stretch of I-95 North.  The only thing related to the PA Turnpike was old mileage markers approaching and on the bridge over the Delaware.  Otherwise, many users would never even realize they're on the PA Turnpike.

I believe (someone who was there for the entire event can confirm) such was mentioned at the Golden Spike meet (may have been mentioned in that thread) & is completely intentional.

I agree. I don't there are any official sources indicating that this is the case, though, only what was told to us and the existing signage.

Now to convince the Wikipedia community of this change...

It's not a "change"  though. Just because there aren't PTC shields doesn't mean it's not part of the turnpike. It's owned and tolled by the turnpike and is physically part of the mainline.

It just would be confusing to people to keep PTC shields on that section, given the PTC is associated with 276 by many people, while they relate I-95 to the New Jersey Turnpike.

Signage stating "I-95/PTC North TO NJTP"  would be confusing and cluttered.

But new 95 is still the Penna Turnpike no doubt about it, Turnpike signage/MMs or not

No one said it wasn't owned by the PTC, but that calling that section the Turnpike is like saying to take PA 300 to Lancaster. No one unfamiliar with the PennDOT/PTC system will know what that means. And "physically part of the mainline" doesn't really mean much in terms of publicly signed naming, especially the way the lanes are set up in each direction. Is the new I-295 physically a part of the I-95 mainline? Is I-376 between I-79 and the Point physically a part of the I-279 mainline?

Everything was converted so that I-95 from Center City to the Delaware River Bridge is the interstate mainline.

This is a straw man argument becaus the turnpike isn't a route designation, it is the name of the physical road itself.

No I-295 isn't a "continuation of the I-95"  mainline but that's not my argument. The name Pennsylvania Turnpike is equivalent to the name Delaware Expressway. Just because I-95 is now I-295 doesn't mean that stretch is no longer the Delaware Expressway. And just because I-276 is now I-95 and there are no longer PTC shields doesn't mean that stretch is no longer the Pennsylvania Turnpike

[bzakharin]

While shorter in mileage, US 40 is not necessarily faster, and can definitely be more confusing and frustrating. 

What's worse, once US 40 has you it won't let you go. Surely no one will argue that taking US 40 all the way to Atlantic City instead of getting on the ACE at some point is the fastest route, but that's exactly what US 40 tells you. In fact many of the routes you might take from US 40 to the ACE will happily sign "Atlantic City" at US 40 instead. This even used to happen on the GS Parkway, though the recent construction project removed Atlantic City from the US 40 exit BGSs. The one exit off of US 40 that does have the ACE shield on it (CR 575 to ACE's exit 12) has Pomona as the control city.