I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[Roadsguy]

Upon the completion of a recent construction project on Interstate 95 in Bucks County, a portion of the existing limited access roadway was renamed Interstate 295. Due to the potential conflict involved in having two major Pennsylvania traffic routes designated as 295, it was decided that State Route 295 in York County would be renumbered State Route 297.

Oh well, such is another reason why the old I-95 should've been redesignated as I-695 instead of I-295. 

Wasn't the original plan to make the "new" I-295 into I-195 and truncate I-295 to Exit 60/I-195 anyway?

Bottom line: Blame AASHTO for the "I-295 East"  silliness.

As was explained during the Golden Spike meet by representatives of the PTC and the engineering firm on the I-95 interchange project (Jacobs)–yes, that was basically the original plan (extend I-195 around Trenton to the PA Turnpike). That plan was eventually rejected by AASHTO. The PTC, PennDOT, and NJDOT jointly proposed other solutions, such as designating "old I-95"  as a new x95, and AASHTO finally just told them to "number it I-295" .

NJDOT wasn't interested in having I-295 change cardinal directions within its jurisdiction, and it also wanted to reduce the resulting resigning effort (exit numbers, milemarkers, and cardinal directions)–which would have been extensive if I-295 was thoroughly resigned as a beltway. The path of least resistance for NJDOT was to extend the existing cardinal directions, milemarker sequence from South Jersey up around Trenton and the wrong direction to the PA/NJ border. Then to avoid an immediate north-to-south transition at the border, the PTC and PennDOT had no choice but to sign its portion of I-295 as East/West.

Heh, I knew NJDOT was the stickler that caused 295 to be north-south all the way thru NJ and then switch to east west in PA...

As if we weren't already cleaning up NJDOT's original mess in the first place

[vdeane]

How would having I-295 be east-west from the PA/NJ border to US 1 change how exit numbers or mile markers would have changed?  There's precedent for beltways with counter-clockwise numbering (see: I-95/I-495, DC/MD/VA).

[roadman65]

Upon the completion of a recent construction project on Interstate 95 in Bucks County, a portion of the existing limited access roadway was renamed Interstate 295. Due to the potential conflict involved in having two major Pennsylvania traffic routes designated as 295, it was decided that State Route 295 in York County would be renumbered State Route 297.

Oh well, such is another reason why the old I-95 should've been redesignated as I-695 instead of I-295. 

Wasn't the original plan to make the "new" I-295 into I-195 and truncate I-295 to Exit 60/I-195 anyway?

Bottom line: Blame AASHTO for the “I-295 East” silliness.

As was explained during the Golden Spike meet by representatives of the PTC and the engineering firm on the I-95 interchange project (Jacobs)—yes, that was basically the original plan (extend I-195 around Trenton to the PA Turnpike). That plan was eventually rejected by AASHTO. The PTC, PennDOT, and NJDOT jointly proposed other solutions, such as designating “old I-95” as a new x95, and AASHTO finally just told them to “number it I-295”.

NJDOT wasn’t interested in having I-295 change cardinal directions within its jurisdiction, and it also wanted to reduce the resulting resigning effort (exit numbers, milemarkers, and cardinal directions)—which would have been extensive if I-295 was thoroughly resigned as a beltway. The path of least resistance for NJDOT was to extend the existing cardinal directions, milemarker sequence from South Jersey up around Trenton and the wrong direction to the PA/NJ border. Then to avoid an immediate north-to-south transition at the border, the PTC and PennDOT had no choice but to sign its portion of I-295 as East/West.

Heh, I knew NJDOT was the stickler that caused 295 to be north-south all the way thru NJ and then switch to east west in PA...

Jersey should have just did all of I-295 that was originally I-95 as East- West and have it changed directions at the US 1 interchange.

https://goo.gl/maps/7qK1Es9RtVx I do see though that "Trenton" is not the control city for East I-295 like it was for North i-95 on this Google image.

[famartin]

Jersey should have just did all of I-295 that was originally I-95 as East- West and have it changed directions at the US 1 interchange.

Completely agree. It should absolutely be east west from the PA state line to US 1, north south in PA

[jeffandnicole]

Oh goodie...beating this dead horse again...

For what it's worth, the local area doesn't seem to care about the highway renumbering.  I haven't heard any coworkers discussing it.  Any newspaper/media articles on it didn't generate any talk either.  On the rare occasion when the traffic reports mention the area, usually they will say the old 95 North, new 295 East in Bucks County or something to that effect.

What people do care about:
The new roundabouts they're putting on 29 at the 295 interchange.
Gas taxes.
Snow removal.

What they will care about when it starts up:
The new Scudders Falls Bridge tolling.

The 295 East/West thing doesn't even register as an issue.  I'd imagine for many people, they'd have more of a problem with it if it did switch directions mid-state.

[famartin]

Oh goodie...beating this dead horse again...

For what it's worth, the local area doesn't seem to care about the highway renumbering.  I haven't heard any coworkers discussing it.  Any newspaper/media articles on it didn't generate any talk either.  On the rare occasion when the traffic reports mention the area, usually they will say the old 95 North, new 295 East in Bucks County or something to that effect.

What people do care about:
The new roundabouts they're putting on 29 at the 295 interchange.
Gas taxes.
Snow removal.

What they will care about when it starts up:
The new Scudders Falls Bridge tolling.

The 295 East/West thing doesn't even register as an issue.  I'd imagine for many people, they'd have more of a problem with it if it did switch directions mid-state.

Of course not.  They are just going the same way they've always gone, ignoring the signs as they've always done.  Nothing  physical has changed for them.  Most people hardly notice signs when they live there and drive that way all the time.

This is all for people who are not from the area.  And for them, this may be confusing.

[jeffandnicole]

Oh goodie...beating this dead horse again...

For what it's worth, the local area doesn't seem to care about the highway renumbering.  I haven't heard any coworkers discussing it.  Any newspaper/media articles on it didn't generate any talk either.  On the rare occasion when the traffic reports mention the area, usually they will say the old 95 North, new 295 East in Bucks County or something to that effect.

What people do care about:
The new roundabouts they're putting on 29 at the 295 interchange.
Gas taxes.
Snow removal.

What they will care about when it starts up:
The new Scudders Falls Bridge tolling.

The 295 East/West thing doesn't even register as an issue.  I'd imagine for many people, they'd have more of a problem with it if it did switch directions mid-state.

Of course not.  They are just going the same way they've always gone, ignoring the signs as they've always done.  Nothing  physical has changed for them.  Most people hardly notice signs when they live there and drive that way all the time.

This is all for people who are not from the area.  And for them, this may be confusing.

How so?  They have directions, telling them which roads to be on and what exit to take. They're not out there orienting themselves with the sun to determine what's east and west of them.

No more confusing than if someone enters I-95 from US 13 or US 130.  Those people are actually going Northward if they want I-95 South, and Southward if they want I-95 North.  Same thing with any number of 'wrong way' signings.

If there's any issues out there, no one's mentioning them. I'm sure it'll be popping up somewhere - articles about businesses complaining people are lost or something like that.

[famartin]

Oh goodie...beating this dead horse again...

For what it's worth, the local area doesn't seem to care about the highway renumbering.  I haven't heard any coworkers discussing it.  Any newspaper/media articles on it didn't generate any talk either.  On the rare occasion when the traffic reports mention the area, usually they will say the old 95 North, new 295 East in Bucks County or something to that effect.

What people do care about:
The new roundabouts they're putting on 29 at the 295 interchange.
Gas taxes.
Snow removal.

What they will care about when it starts up:
The new Scudders Falls Bridge tolling.

The 295 East/West thing doesn't even register as an issue.  I'd imagine for many people, they'd have more of a problem with it if it did switch directions mid-state.

Of course not.  They are just going the same way they've always gone, ignoring the signs as they've always done.  Nothing  physical has changed for them.  Most people hardly notice signs when they live there and drive that way all the time.

This is all for people who are not from the area.  And for them, this may be confusing.

How so?  They have directions, telling them which roads to be on and what exit to take. They're not out there orienting themselves with the sun to determine what's east and west of them.

No more confusing than if someone enters I-95 from US 13 or US 130.  Those people are actually going Northward if they want I-95 South, and Southward if they want I-95 North.  Same thing with any number of 'wrong way' signings.

If there's any issues out there, no one's mentioning them. I'm sure it'll be popping up somewhere - articles about businesses complaining people are lost or something like that.

First, you misunderstand my meaning.  Most signs are still basically the same (exits etc), and even the I-295 north signs in NJ all say "To 95 South" where they used to say just "95 south".  A lot of the 95 north signs also had "to 295 south" and now just say "295 south". Signs haven't changed THAT much.

Second, what happens on the new segment of I-95 is completely different.  The overall route still goes north-south. 295 turns completely around, it doesn't end up going north again later on. Its directional signage, as such, is therefore inappropriate. NJDOT gets away with things like I-287 since it only turns around partly at the south end.  But I-295 loops back almost completely.  NJDOT basically said "no we're going to ignore that", because they definitely have an internal issue with signing any road in more than one set of cardinal directions. They only grudgingly do so on the few roads where it happens (Route 36, Route 7, maybe one or two more I can't think of).

[famartin]

BTW, speaking of the new segment of I-95 being slightly wrong-way where it crosses from NJ to PA... its also slightly wrong-way where it crosses from NJ to NY.  Not sure if that was mentioned here.

[roadman65]

It seems odd that from US 1 in Langhorne that East is to the left of north and west to the right going against all conventional logic, but I have seen it worse.  In Orlando where I am from we have W Bound US 92 intersect FL 417 with the SB 417 to the right of WB US 92, and in Tennessee you have both US 11 traveling northbound with US 41 Southbound on the same two lane road.

As far as folks reading road signs I agree no one does anymore so this confusion is only to us minority who are into roads (who know what is right anyway) as people now do not even bother to orient themselves with their surroundings in strange places thanks to our phone already figuring it out for them.

[roadman65]

BTW, speaking of the new segment of I-95 being slightly wrong-way where it crosses from NJ to PA... its also slightly wrong-way where it crosses from NJ to NY.  Not sure if that was mentioned here.

So is Business US 90 crossing the Mississippi.  Just as the Business banner is not what it is either, but every road cannot be straight.  US 441 inside Great Smoky Mountain Park has SB 441 travel north looking back (up) at the overlook ahead of you that was visited several miles ago before.

[famartin]

BTW, speaking of the new segment of I-95 being slightly wrong-way where it crosses from NJ to PA... its also slightly wrong-way where it crosses from NJ to NY.  Not sure if that was mentioned here.

So is Business US 90 crossing the Mississippi.  Just as the Business banner is not what it is either, but every road cannot be straight.  US 441 inside Great Smoky Mountain Park has SB 441 travel north looking back (up) at the overlook ahead of you that was visited several miles ago before.

I was trying to key in on the fact that at both state crossings into/out of NJ, I-95 is slightly wrong way.

[SignBridge]

J&N made a good point up above. This issue of 95/295 and where it goes north/south vs. east/west and what control cities should be shown where has been discussed in these pages backwards, forwards and sideways. It's good that so many of us find this an interesting subject, but really enough is enough. LOL

[Alps]

NJ creates its own issues.
* NJ 7: Mileposted entirely north/south, so you see NORTH 7 MILE 3 next to a WEST 7 assembly.
* US 1/9 TRUCK: Mileposted entirely east/west for absolutely no reason at all.

[PHLBOS]

Bottom line: Blame AASHTO for the "I-295 East"  silliness.

As was explained during the Golden Spike meet by representatives of the PTC and the engineering firm on the I-95 interchange project (Jacobs)–yes, that was basically the original plan (extend I-195 around Trenton to the PA Turnpike). That plan was eventually rejected by AASHTO. The PTC, PennDOT, and NJDOT jointly proposed other solutions, such as designating "old I-95"  as a new x95, and AASHTO finally just told them to "number it I-295" .

NJDOT wasn't interested in having I-295 change cardinal directions within its jurisdiction, and it also wanted to reduce the resulting resigning effort (exit numbers, milemarkers, and cardinal directions)– which would have been extensive if I-295 was thoroughly resigned as a beltway. The path of least resistance for NJDOT was to extend the existing cardinal directions, milemarker sequence from South Jersey up around Trenton and the wrong direction to the PA/NJ border. Then to avoid an immediate north-to-south transition at the border, the PTC and PennDOT had no choice but to sign its portion of I-295 as East/West.

IMHO, and I know that such was mentioned several times in previous posts, the path of least resistance would've actually been selecting a separate number (I-395 or I-695).  Such would not have required NJDOT to change their exit numbers & mile markers (which they did for the I-295 conversion).  The only change in the NJ side would've been the route number & direction cardinals; such would've allowed that stretch to be logically signed as east-west.  Had I arrived at the Golden Spike Meet earlier; I would've voiced the above.

Additionally, when I did arrive late at the Golden Spike Meet; I handed out copies of a 1957 Master Plan of Trenton-Mercer Airport (TTN) that showed the then-proposed I-95 (now I-295) as proposed NJ 129.  Obviously the plan, predated the now-familiar Interstate designations becoming official.  Had the arced highway indeed became NJ 129; it most certainly would've been signed as an east-west route.  Restating the obvious here but the only reason why that western portion of the highway was signed as a north-south route in the first place was because it was planned to be the southernmost segment of the overall I-95 in NJ.

J&N, had you been able to attend that meet; I would have certainly given you a copy of that plan.  I still have some extras with me.  Maybe I'll bring them to whatever local relatively local meet that may come up.

Jersey should have just did all of I-295 that was originally I-95 as East- West and have it changed directions at the US 1 interchange.

Agreed.

https://goo.gl/maps/7qK1Es9RtVx I do see though that "Trenton" is not the control city for East I-295 like it was for North i-95 on this Google image.

It's worth noting that the change from Trenton to Princeton for the northbound Delaware Expressway in that area occurred several years prior to the recent I-95/295 changeover.  2009 GSV of US 1 southbound approaching the then-I-95 interchange near Langhorne, PA.  IMHO, regardless of which I-95 alignment prevailed; the Delaware Expressway from this US 1 interchange and northward should've never been signed for Trenton.  The current Princeton control city is more appropriate.

[roadman65]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

Route 73 is another, though understandable and not part of the east to west process, however PennDOT signs their portion as east-west though and should keep the uniform like PennDOT does with PA 179 where in New Hope it does run more east-west than north-south, but in NJ it is more north - south and they decided not to confuse folks and signed it like they did.  I cannot see why NJ does not look at that aspect and keep it uniform even if it breaks rules som.

[PHLBOS]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

IIRC, the north-south signing of NJ 42 dates back to when that designation once included both of the I-76 & I-676 stretches; though designation of the latter I don't believe ever happened.

Route 73 is another, though understandable and not part of the east to west process, however PennDOT signs their portion as east-west though and should keep the uniform like PennDOT does with PA 179 where in New Hope it does run more east-west than north-south, but in NJ it is more north - south and they decided not to confuse folks and signed it like they did.  I cannot see why NJ does not look at that aspect and keep it uniform even if it breaks rules som.

IIRC, there's no law that requires state routes to retain their direction cardinals when crossing state lines & the SR 73 vs. SR 179 (which only has a short segment in PA) is an apple-to-oranges comparison.

[Roadsguy]

https://goo.gl/maps/7qK1Es9RtVx I do see though that "Trenton" is not the control city for East I-295 like it was for North i-95 on this Google image.

It's worth noting that the change from Trenton to Princeton for the northbound Delaware Expressway in that area occurred several years prior to the recent I-95/295 changeover.  2009 GSV of US 1 southbound approaching the then-I-95 interchange near Langhorne, PA.  IMHO, regardless of which I-95 alignment prevailed; the Delaware Expressway from this US 1 interchange and northward should've never been signed for Trenton.  The current Princeton control city is more appropriate.

Maybe it made sense before US 1 was completed between Oxford Valley Road and US 13, but having Trenton be the control city on 95 295 all the way to NJ 29 was really dumb.

Fortunately, Princeton is only used as the primary control city north of US 1. Trenton is used from I-95 at the new interchange. They also replaced Morrisville with Trenton at least at the I-295/US 1 cloverleaf for the NB US 1 control city, which again makes much more sense.

[famartin]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

From the end of the AC Expressway in AC to the middle of the Walt Whitman Bridge, its 36.86 miles due west and 37.59 miles due north... so, BARELY more north-south. At least, if you only include the NJ portion.  Of course, if you measure from the Ben Franklin Bridge, its even more north-south.

[famartin]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

From the end of the AC Expressway in AC to the middle of the Walt Whitman Bridge, its 36.86 miles due west and 37.59 miles due north... so, BARELY more north-south. At least, if you only include the NJ portion.  Of course, if you measure from the Ben Franklin Bridge, its even more north-south.

This idea that its really a north-south corridor in NJ is also supported by mileposting, since both I-76 and the AC Expressway are mileposted east-to-west (instead of the proper west-to-east)... if the direction was changed to south-north, then the mileposting would be proper. 

[Roadsguy]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

From the end of the AC Expressway in AC to the middle of the Walt Whitman Bridge, its 36.86 miles due west and 37.59 miles due north... so, BARELY more north-south. At least, if you only include the NJ portion.  Of course, if you measure from the Ben Franklin Bridge, its even more north-south.

This idea that its really a north-south corridor in NJ is also supported by mileposting, since both I-76 and the AC Expressway are mileposted east-to-west (instead of the proper west-to-east)... if the direction was changed to south-north, then the mileposting would be proper.

Not to mention that the non-ACE section is literally called the North-South Freeway.

[jeffandnicole]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

From the end of the AC Expressway in AC to the middle of the Walt Whitman Bridge, its 36.86 miles due west and 37.59 miles due north... so, BARELY more north-south. At least, if you only include the NJ portion.  Of course, if you measure from the Ben Franklin Bridge, its even more north-south.

It's tough to think of it this way, but Atlantic City is actually almost due east of Baltimore.  Toms River and Seaside Heights are due east of Philly. Cape May is due east of Washington, DC. 

If you're using I-95, you go further east-west on 95 between Philly and Baltimore than you do between Philly and AC.

So when it comes to cardinal directions, NJ could've gone either way.  Heck, even I-295 could've been East-West from I-95 in Delaware to Bordentown, NJ, when it finally decidedly takes a noticeable North/South alignment.

J&N, had you been able to attend that meet; I would have certainly given you a copy of that plan.  I still have some extras with me.  Maybe I'll bring them to whatever local relatively local meet that may come up.

Absolutely.  I was very disappointed to miss that meet, being just a few miles away.

[famartin]

NJ is pretty much screwy with cardinal directions anyhow.  Look at Route 42 for example.  Yes it runs north and south, but it is part of a larger east-west corridor and really should be signed as east-west, but NJDOT don't see the big picture there, and they do not here.

From the end of the AC Expressway in AC to the middle of the Walt Whitman Bridge, its 36.86 miles due west and 37.59 miles due north... so, BARELY more north-south. At least, if you only include the NJ portion.  Of course, if you measure from the Ben Franklin Bridge, its even more north-south.

It's tough to think of it this way, but Atlantic City is actually almost due east of Baltimore.  Toms River and Seaside Heights are due east of Philly. Cape May is due east of Washington, DC. 

If you're using I-95, you go further east-west on 95 between Philly and Baltimore than you do between Philly and AC.

So when it comes to cardinal directions, NJ could've gone either way.  Heck, even I-295 could've been East-West from I-95 in Delaware to Bordentown, NJ, when it finally decidedly takes a noticeable North/South alignment.

South Jersey's cardinal directions are kinda skewed by the decidedly northeast/southwest urban corridor through the region. US 30 is probably the only true outlier (being slightly more north/south in NJ than east/west, but signed east/west because of the entire route being east/west), with 322 and 40 more east/west than north/south.  The issue COULD be forced if I-76 was ever extended to AC, which would likely force a re-mileposting from the Walt Whitman being the new mile zero, east to AC (which would reverse all the mileposts in this stretch, but give them a single set of them).  Not that such a thing will ever happen...

I-295 could (perhaps should) be signed east/west in Delaware... I'm actually sometimes surprised that it isn't.  Before, when it was just Delaware and NJ, it made more sense to keep it north/south, but now that the new PA section breaks from the mold, Delaware could get away with it.  Of course, no one really even notices what the direction is there... all they pay attention to is the "To NJTP/NY/NJ" signs going north and "To I-95/Baltimore" signs going south.

[ipeters61]

I-295 could (perhaps should) be signed east/west in Delaware... I'm actually sometimes surprised that it isn't.  Before, when it was just Delaware and NJ, it made more sense to keep it north/south, but now that the new PA section breaks from the mold, Delaware could get away with it.  Of course, no one really even notices what the direction is there... all they pay attention to is the "To NJTP/NY/NJ" signs going north and "To I-95/Baltimore" signs going south.

My own personal opinion is that I-295 should remain north/south in Delaware since, at least from my understanding, the vast majority of traffic taking I-295 from DE is either taking the NJ Turnpike or I-295 towards New York/New England.  Considering I-295 only exists in Delaware for about 5 miles, it's not worth the extra confusion, since most traffic is heading "north" (yes, technically northeast, but most people, at least around DE, refer to New York and New England as "up north").  The US-40 multiplex that exists for half of those 5 miles takes care of the "east" part.

[famartin]

I-295 could (perhaps should) be signed east/west in Delaware... I'm actually sometimes surprised that it isn't.  Before, when it was just Delaware and NJ, it made more sense to keep it north/south, but now that the new PA section breaks from the mold, Delaware could get away with it.  Of course, no one really even notices what the direction is there... all they pay attention to is the "To NJTP/NY/NJ" signs going north and "To I-95/Baltimore" signs going south.

My own personal opinion is that I-295 should remain north/south in Delaware since, at least from my understanding, the vast majority of traffic taking I-295 from DE is either taking the NJ Turnpike or I-295 towards New York/New England.  Considering I-295 only exists in Delaware for about 5 miles, it's not worth the extra confusion, since most traffic is heading "north" (yes, technically northeast, but most people, at least around DE, refer to New York and New England as "up north").  The US-40 multiplex that exists for half of those 5 miles takes care of the "east" part.

Since I don't think they're even paying attention to the I-295 part of those signs, I doubt it even matters what direction is signed.