Stupid, Archaic and Weird Highway Laws

[Ace10]

This is nothing more than "a friend of a friend told me" crap. Heck, the first line contradicts itself: Can I make a left turn on red? First, it says "Simply put: Yes". Next sentence..."Well, it depends".  There's a big difference there. Doesn't matter anyway. NJ had never allowed it, regardless what some vague website that doesn't link to its supposed sources says.

Yeah, it would have been much more helpful if the site actually linked to the source material it copied. A quick web search for the AAA pamphlet turned up nothing. I wasn't at all intending to claim that was a reputable source; to the contrary, the glaring flaw in generalizing what a red arrow means (absolute prohibition on turning) is enough to call the authenticity of all the information on that page into question.

This site might be a little better. It answers various (il)legalities as far as vehicle law goes in each state. The link goes to a list of states and a map where left turn on red from one-way to one-way is either permitted or prohibited. Even better, clicking on the name of a state opens up a page that lists the statute or ordinance citation (e.g., Rhode Island's is 31-13-6(3)(i)), so at least the information on the site can be independently verified.

The Right turn on red article on Wikipedia also leaves out Rhode Island and New Jersey, and Alaska is wrong as well. Guess I'll take it upon myself to get that updated.

[Pete from Boston]

NJ has never allowed Left Turns on Red.  NJ has always allowed Right Turns on Red (well, ever since the national rules were changed permitting it).   What websites are you looking at regarding AAA?

Here's a link to the page that references that AAA pamphlet: http://www.driversedguru.com/driving-articles/drivers-ed-extras/can-you-make-a-left-turn-on-red/

According to a 2003 pamphlet issued by AAA, the following locations prohibit a left turn on red:
1.Connecticut
2.Missouri
3.North Carolina
4.Rhode Island
5.Vermont
6.New York City

Obviously, if there is a red left-turn arrow, a left turn is expressly prohibited.

Of course the bit about red arrows expressly prohibiting the turn is not true for all 50 states; I've confirmed both Oregon and Washington allow the turn on a red arrow, and I believe Brandon (another user here) mentioned Michigan also makes no distinction between a circular signal and arrow signal when it comes to turns on red.

This is nothing more than "a friend of a friend told me" crap. Heck, the first line contradicts itself: Can I make a left turn on red? First, it says "Simply put: Yes". Next sentence..."Well, it depends".  There's a big difference there. Doesn't matter anyway. NJ had never allowed it, regardless what some vague website that doesn't link to its supposed sources says.

In Massachusetts, the same turn-on-red rules apply to red arrows that apply to a regular red, left or right.

A friend told me, but that's because I'm friends with the driver's manual:

https://www.massrmv.com/rmv/mcmanual/18_TrafficSignals.pdf

[jeffandnicole]

In Massachusetts, the same turn-on-red rules apply to red arrows that apply to a regular red, left or right.

A friend told me, but that's because I'm friends with the driver's manual:

https://www.massrmv.com/rmv/mcmanual/18_TrafficSignals.pdf

At least that's a legit source.

[discochris]

I know in Minnesota, there's such a thing as a road kill game permit. I know because I hit a deer in high school and we actually did keep it. The sheriff's deputy wrote the permit, and we brought it home. It was a fresh kill, and it seemed better than letting it go to waste.

Our good friends hit a moose this fall (they were lucky to live). The DNR asked if they wanted it. They said no (because a moose is huge, and their car was totaled), so it was hauled away to be processed to give to local needy people.

[thenetwork]

School busses, busses, hazmat loads must stop at all railroad crossings, even if they are signalized. Stupidest law ever, causes way more accidents than it prevents.

Agreed.  If it is a signalized crossing, why should a vehicle (especially a school bus) have to come to a complete stop, put their air-brake or emergency brake on, and do all the other checklist items before they can proceed?  At least label those crossings as EXEMPT -- meaning the law does not apply at that crossing. 

I know that the law goes back to the days when most RR crossings were not signalized.  I think in the last few decades, crossings without signals have become the minority -- even in the rural areas.  EXEMPTED crossings are still few and far between, but more crossings should be labeled as such -- for safety's sake.

Speaking of school buses, and laws, there should be a law and rule which states that SCHOOL bus stops must have minimum distances between them, unless the bus stop is for a handicapped person.   I knew of a few bus routes where the bus would stop at 3 driveways in-a-row all 3 within 50 feet of each other, dropping one kid off at each stop.  I will say that with most  school budgets the way they are nowadays, I believe most school districts have consolidated the stops into a select few intersections -- which now means instead of shorter 15 second dropoffs/pickups, you may now be stopped for 2-3 minutes while half the bus passes through the front door.

The most confusing school bus laws from state to state is how many lanes can a bus stop when their lights are on?  Obviously on a 2-lane road, everyone stops.  Add a 3rd lane or center-turn lane and it's still usually an all-stop.  But a road with more than 3-lanes or even a simple center divider and the laws get murky:  the state may still dictate an all-stop in both directions, or only a stop for traffic traveling in the same direction as the bus.

[jeffandnicole]

School busses, busses, hazmat loads must stop at all railroad crossings, even if they are signalized. Stupidest law ever, causes way more accidents than it prevents.

Agreed.  If it is a signalized crossing, why should a vehicle (especially a school bus) have to come to a complete stop, put their air-brake or emergency brake on, and do all the other checklist items before they can proceed?...

Huh? What checklist items?

The law is simply the vehicle must stop and the driver must look both ways prior to crossing.

Checklist items for CDL vehicles include measuring the distance between the dual axle rear tires, pumping the air brakes to make sure they are working correctly, checking all lights and windshield wipers, checking the exhaust, sounding the horn, and so on. These are to be done at the depot or when starting up the vehicle; not in the middle of the road at a railroad crossing and definitely not with a busload of kids.

[jakeroot]

This is nothing more than "a friend of a friend told me" crap. Heck, the first line contradicts itself: Can I make a left turn on red? First, it says "Simply put: Yes". Next sentence..."Well, it depends".  There's a big difference there. Doesn't matter anyway. NJ had never allowed it, regardless what some vague website that doesn't link to its supposed sources says.

Washington RCW 46.61.055:

Section (3)(C):
...the vehicle operators facing a steady red arrow indication may, after stopping proceed to make a...left turn from a one-way street or two-way street into a one-way street carrying traffic in the direction of the left turn...

[Ace10]

The most confusing school bus laws from state to state is how many lanes can a bus stop when their lights are on?  Obviously on a 2-lane road, everyone stops.  Add a 3rd lane or center-turn lane and it's still usually an all-stop.  But a road with more than 3-lanes or even a simple center divider and the laws get murky:  the state may still dictate an all-stop in both directions, or only a stop for traffic traveling in the same direction as the bus.

I was surprised to find out in Washington State that on a road with three or more marked traffic lanes, traffic proceeding in the opposite direction of a school bus is not required to stop when the school bus is loading or unloading. Traffic moving in the same direction, and all traffic on roads with two or fewer lanes, must stop when school buses load or unload. There is no stopping requirement either for traffic moving in the opposite direction on a divided highway.

RCW 46.61.370 - Overtaking or meeting school bus, exceptions–Duties of bus driver–Penalty–Safety cameras.

(1) The driver of a vehicle upon overtaking or meeting from either direction any school bus which has stopped on the roadway for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school children shall stop the vehicle before reaching such school bus when there is in operation on said school bus a visual signal as specified in RCW 46.37.190 and said driver shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion or the visual signals are no longer activated.

(2) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway divided into separate roadways as provided in RCW 46.61.150 need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

(3) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway with three or more marked traffic lanes need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

(4) The driver of a school bus shall actuate the visual signals required by RCW 46.37.190 only when such bus is stopped on the roadway for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

The full text of the law seems to require traffic to stop when visual signals (the flashing red lights and stop sign) are activated, and the law also requires drivers of the school bus to actuate the visual signals when picking up or dropping off students, but (2) and (3) seem to contradict and nullify the stopping requirement in (1).

[jakeroot]

The most confusing school bus laws from state to state is how many lanes can a bus stop when their lights are on?  Obviously on a 2-lane road, everyone stops.  Add a 3rd lane or center-turn lane and it's still usually an all-stop.  But a road with more than 3-lanes or even a simple center divider and the laws get murky:  the state may still dictate an all-stop in both directions, or only a stop for traffic traveling in the same direction as the bus.

I was surprised to find out in Washington State that on a road with three or more marked traffic lanes, traffic proceeding in the opposite direction of a school bus is not required to stop when the school bus is loading or unloading. Traffic moving in the same direction, and all traffic on roads with two or fewer lanes, must stop when school buses load or unload. There is no stopping requirement either for traffic moving in the opposite direction on a divided highway.

As it happens, my grandfather is a school bus driver. I asked him about this, and he confirmed that school buses do not stop to pick-up/drop-off students when there is more than one lane between the bus and the edge of the road (where the student stops and waits). Basically, if you see a two-way center turn lane, you don't need to stop.

[jeffandnicole]

This is nothing more than "a friend of a friend told me" crap. Heck, the first line contradicts itself: Can I make a left turn on red? First, it says "Simply put: Yes". Next sentence..."Well, it depends".  There's a big difference there. Doesn't matter anyway. NJ had never allowed it, regardless what some vague website that doesn't link to its supposed sources says.

Washington RCW 46.61.055:

Section (3)(C):
...the vehicle operators facing a steady red arrow indication may, after stopping proceed to make a...left turn from a one-way street or two-way street into a one-way street carrying traffic in the direction of the left turn...

Do most people in Washington State know the law, or do they just sit there when they could be turning left?

The argument was that the site wasn't displaying the law in NJ correctly, and the AAA pamphlet to which it was referring to is nowhere to be found.  Most states, including Washington, are pictured correctly.

RCW 46.61.370 - Overtaking or meeting school bus, exceptions—Duties of bus driver—Penalty—Safety cameras.

(1) The driver of a vehicle upon overtaking or meeting from either direction any school bus which has stopped on the roadway for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school children shall stop the vehicle before reaching such school bus when there is in operation on said school bus a visual signal as specified in RCW 46.37.190 and said driver shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion or the visual signals are no longer activated.

(2) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway divided into separate roadways as provided in RCW 46.61.150 need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

(3) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway with three or more marked traffic lanes need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

(4) The driver of a school bus shall actuate the visual signals required by RCW 46.37.190 only when such bus is stopped on the roadway for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

The full text of the law seems to require traffic to stop when visual signals (the flashing red lights and stop sign) are activated, and the law also requires drivers of the school bus to actuate the visual signals when picking up or dropping off students, but (2) and (3) seem to contradict and nullify the stopping requirement in (1).
[/quote]

Most laws are written like this, although usually (1) would have wording like "Except as referred to in (2) & (3)" or some wording to that effect.  Generally, laws are written with what one should do at all times, then list the various exceptions to the law.

[roadman]

In Massachusetts, the same turn-on-red rules apply to red arrows that apply to a regular red, left or right.

A friend told me, but that's because I'm friends with the driver's manual:

https://www.massrmv.com/rmv/mcmanual/18_TrafficSignals.pdf

From MGL, Chapter 89, Section 8:

At any intersection on ways, as defined in section one of chapter ninety, in which vehicular traffic is facing a steady red indication in a traffic control signal, the driver of a vehicle which is stopped as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk or the near side of the intersections or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersection in obedience to such red or stop signal, may make either (1) a right turn or (2) if on a one-way street may make a left turn to another one-way street, but shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection, except that a city or town, subject to section two of chapter eighty-five, by rules, orders, ordinances, or by-laws, and the department of highways on state highways or on ways at their intersections with a state highway, may prohibit any such turns against a red or stop signal at any such intersection, and such prohibition shall be effective when a sign is erected at such intersection giving notice thereof. Any person who violates the provisions of this paragraph shall be punished by a fine of not less than thirty-five dollars.

The operative word here is "indication" (i.e. red ball or red arrow).  And while this is in conflict with the UVC and the MUTCD (which states RTOR on red ball unless there is a sign, but RTOR on red arrow only if there is a sign), I believe this is a much more consistent and logical approach to RTOR - that is, RTOR at all times (regardless of ball vs arrow) unless there is a sign prohibiting it.

[6a]

School busses, busses, hazmat loads must stop at all railroad crossings, even if they are signalized. Stupidest law ever, causes way more accidents than it prevents.

Agreed.  If it is a signalized crossing, why should a vehicle (especially a school bus) have to come to a complete stop, put their air-brake or emergency brake on, and do all the other checklist items before they can proceed?...

Huh? What checklist items?

The law is simply the vehicle must stop and the driver must look both ways prior to crossing.

Checklist items for CDL vehicles include measuring the distance between the dual axle rear tires, pumping the air brakes to make sure they are working correctly, checking all lights and windshield wipers, checking the exhaust, sounding the horn, and so on. These are to be done at the depot or when starting up the vehicle; not in the middle of the road at a railroad crossing and definitely not with a busload of kids.

In Ohio:

(B) Railroad grade crossings

(1) General procedures

(a) The driver of any school bus, with or without passengers, shall come to a complete stop, set the parking brake, shift to neutral, turn off the warning lamp master switch if necessary, fully open the service door, and look and listen in both directions along the track or tracks for approaching engines, trains, or train cars.

Edit: I should clarify this is from the Ohio Administrative Code, not the revised code, so it's a rule not a law. In practice, however, I wouldn't want to be the driver not following it.

[bzakharin]

NJ does not allow any kind of left turn on red.

Given that many left turn movements in NJ are handled via right-turn jughandles; I'm not surprised.

Jughandles exist mostly on divided highways, or at least four lane roads. Left turns on red (in other states) involve one-way streets, so jughandles don't come into play.

[jeffandnicole]

In Ohio:

(B) Railroad grade crossings

(1) General procedures

(a) The driver of any school bus, with or without passengers, shall come to a complete stop, set the parking brake, shift to neutral, turn off the warning lamp master switch if necessary, fully open the service door, order lunch, read the newspaper, purchase cabinets, run for President, and look and listen in both directions along the track or tracks for approaching engines, trains, or train cars.

Wow. 

Clearly, even without the stuff I added in, that's overkill.  After checking for trains, you don't want to be in a position where it takes unnecessary seconds to re-engage the vehicle, reducing the benefit of stopping in the first place.

[bzakharin]

Sorry, I see my jughandles comment was a repetition of someone else's post. Regarding stopping for school buses, I believe in NJ all traffic in both directions must stop unless there is a physical barrier (a median barrier, a barrier-separated left turn lane, etc) between you and the school bus.

[vdeane]

In Ohio:

(B) Railroad grade crossings

(1) General procedures

(a) The driver of any school bus, with or without passengers, shall come to a complete stop, set the parking brake, shift to neutral, turn off the warning lamp master switch if necessary, fully open the service door, and look and listen in both directions along the track or tracks for approaching engines, trains, or train cars.

Edit: I should clarify this is from the Ohio Administrative Code, not the revised code, so it's a rule not a law. In practice, however, I wouldn't want to be the driver not following it.

I believe NY is the same way, judging by how buses acted around rail crossings when I was in school.

[english si]

I know in Minnesota, there's such a thing as a road kill game permit.

In the UK, road kill is fair game (pun intended) for picking up as long as it isn't your car that hit it: for the obvious reason of not wanting deliberate hitting of animals for their meat. I'm guessing a road kill game permit allows you to 'hunt with vehicles as weapons'?

[thenetwork]

School busses, busses, hazmat loads must stop at all railroad crossings, even if they are signalized. Stupidest law ever, causes way more accidents than it prevents.

Agreed.  If it is a signalized crossing, why should a vehicle (especially a school bus) have to come to a complete stop, put their air-brake or emergency brake on, and do all the other checklist items before they can proceed?...

Huh? What checklist items?

The law is simply the vehicle must stop and the driver must look both ways prior to crossing.

Checklist items for CDL vehicles include measuring the distance between the dual axle rear tires, pumping the air brakes to make sure they are working correctly, checking all lights and windshield wipers, checking the exhaust, sounding the horn, and so on. These are to be done at the depot or when starting up the vehicle; not in the middle of the road at a railroad crossing and definitely not with a busload of kids.

I meant that a school bus vehicle turns on the flashers, slows to a stop, puts the airbrakes on, open the bus door, opens the driver's window, looks both ways, closes bus door, closes the driver's window, takes off the airbrake, turns off the flashers, then proceeds.

Never understood having to open up the bus door when there are windows on the door -- if you can't see a train through the smaller windows on the door or driver's window -- especially if the windows are clean -- then the train ain't gonna come out of nowhere.

[thenetwork]

School busses, busses, hazmat loads must stop at all railroad crossings, even if they are signalized. Stupidest law ever, causes way more accidents than it prevents.

Agreed.  If it is a signalized crossing, why should a vehicle (especially a school bus) have to come to a complete stop, put their air-brake or emergency brake on, and do all the other checklist items before they can proceed?...

Huh? What checklist items?

The law is simply the vehicle must stop and the driver must look both ways prior to crossing.

Checklist items for CDL vehicles include measuring the distance between the dual axle rear tires, pumping the air brakes to make sure they are working correctly, checking all lights and windshield wipers, checking the exhaust, sounding the horn, and so on. These are to be done at the depot or when starting up the vehicle; not in the middle of the road at a railroad crossing and definitely not with a busload of kids.

I meant that a school bus vehicle turns on the flashers, slows to a stop, puts the airbrakes on, open the bus door, opens the driver's window, looks both ways, closes bus door, closes the driver's window, takes off the airbrake, turns off the flashers, then proceeds.

Never understood having to open up the bus door when there are windows on the door -- if you can't see a train through the smaller windows on the door or driver's window -- especially if the windows are clean -- then the train ain't nowhere close!!!  Opening them up is not gonna change things.

[Kacie Jane]

Opening the door is so that you can hear the train coming, in case there's a curve or hill in the track, or poor weather, or anything else that might affect visibility.

(Totally agree that it's an archaic law, just playing a tiny bit of devil's advocate.)

[Pete from Boston]

In Ohio:

(B) Railroad grade crossings

(1) General procedures

(a) The driver of any school bus, with or without passengers, shall come to a complete stop, set the parking brake, shift to neutral, turn off the warning lamp master switch if necessary, fully open the service door, order lunch, read the newspaper, purchase cabinets, run for President, and look and listen in both directions along the track or tracks for approaching engines, trains, or train cars.

Wow. 

Clearly, even without the stuff I added in, that's overkill.  After checking for trains, you don't want to be in a position where it takes unnecessary seconds to re-engage the vehicle, reducing the benefit of stopping in the first place.

It would seem to be common sense that the stop occur a sufficient distance prior to the track that it will not place the bus in any danger so long as the train does not depart from the track.

[vdeane]

And in the time it takes them to do all of that, the train gets closer... and closer... and CLOSER, sneaking up, ready to pounce on the bus and take the souls of the kids from this world!

In all seriousness, those Amtrak trains move pretty fast.

[1995hoo]

In Ohio:

(B) Railroad grade crossings

(1) General procedures

(a) The driver of any school bus, with or without passengers, shall come to a complete stop, set the parking brake, shift to neutral, turn off the warning lamp master switch if necessary, fully open the service door, order lunch, read the newspaper, purchase cabinets, run for President, and look and listen in both directions along the track or tracks for approaching engines, trains, or train cars.

Wow. 

Clearly, even without the stuff I added in, that's overkill.  After checking for trains, you don't want to be in a position where it takes unnecessary seconds to re-engage the vehicle, reducing the benefit of stopping in the first place.

Rules like that generally date back to early 20th-century tort cases in which the courts held, epitomized by the famous opinion written by Judge Learned Hand or Judge Cardozo (I forget which one), that a driver is negligent if he fails to "stop, look, and listen" at a railroad crossing. Even after signals and arms started to become normal, the courts were slow to move away from that rule, in part because they were reluctant to overrule such a respected judge and in part because signals and arms were by no means universal and so judges were reluctant to adopt a rule that didn't apply everywhere. Obviously, for cars the old rule gradually gave way over time. I suspect part of the issue with school buses is that they don't accelerate nor maneuver all that well and, given the "cargo," the authorities want them to err on the side of safety. It can be damn annoying, but on the other hand, there is no guarantee that the lights or gates might not malfunction and fail to give adequate warning. I guess the idea is that a bus full of passengers is considered a greater risk of loss than a single automobile.

My favorite school bus railroad crossing memory was on a Boy Scout trip to PEI in 1989. We were on a school bus going to one of the activities and we came to an at-grade railroad crossing where the road was on an uphill grade. The school bus had a manual transmission and the driver was decidedly unskilled with a clutch? We were stuck there for several minutes as most of the fathers, and the few of us Scouts who were old enough to drive, were yelling out loads of advice to the poor driver, none of which advice was likely of any help.

[froggie]

In all seriousness, those Amtrak trains move pretty fast.

Default Amtrak speed, barring train traffic or track conditions otherwise, is 79 MPH.  There are some segments here and there (including the "racetrack" in your neck of the woods, between Albany and Schenectady roughly from the Northway to past 890) where speeds are up to 90 or even 110.  And this doesn't count the Northeast Corridor.

[PHLBOS]

And in the time it takes them to do all of that, the train gets closer... and closer... and CLOSER, sneaking up, ready to pounce on the bus and take the souls of the kids from this world!

In all seriousness, those Amtrak trains move pretty fast.

I'm not sure about other Amtrak branches but its Northeast & Keystone corridors are all grade-separated.