Topic: Winnemucca to the Sea Highway (Read 23429 times)

agentsteel53 · « **on:** July 01, 2009, 10:35:54 PM »

got this in a private message today; I'm thinking roadfro will forgive me for posting it publicly so that other people can give more info ...

Quote from: roadfro on July 01, 2009, 10:13:44 PM

Incidentally, can you point me to any sources that talk more about the Winnemucca to the Sea Highway effort? All I've seen is an unsourced mention on the Wikipedia page for NV 8A and what's listed at the NV 140 entry on AA Roads' Nevada Route Log.

As to connecting routes, NV/UT 30 was another one that existed (UT renumbered, then Nevada's renumbering happened shortly afterwards). NV/CA 266 is another one that formed post renumbering. Nevada's numbers from the renumbering came from numbers used in the state's Federal Aid System, so that's probably why 51 didn't survive.

NV 225A doesn't exist...maybe you're thinking of 226? At any rate, Google tends to incorrectly use old state route numbers in many places, especially where a current state highway ends in the middle of nowhere but a former highway carried on. As such, I doubt there's any SR 11 shields still in place, although I've never been out that way so I can't speak to any degree of certainty.

-roadfro

okay, I heard about US-140 from AARoads's own Andy Field verbally, and it was confirmed by someone else I talked to, a highway sign collector, who mentioned that NV never made any US-140 shields but they sure wanted to...

225A vs 226 ... is that the correct number? I knew there was a loop road that branched off of 225, and I quickly googled it, and it said 225A. If it is 226, then it is 226. I've driven both, but it was a while ago so I do not remember much past there being a "bridge to nowhere" off the 225. Didn't remember seeing any 11 or 11A shields. (Google Maps shows both 11 and 11A numbers.)

Google Maps tends not to be flat out wrong in assigning highway numbers - they just zealously tack on decommissioned numbers onto old alignments. It's very useful in its own way - though you'd swear US-80 still made it all the way to San Diego by this measure.

(They also mix up state and US route shields a bunch, but that's easy to correct for mentally.)

roadfro · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2009, 12:15:25 AM »

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 01, 2009, 10:35:54 PM

got this in a private message today; I'm thinking roadfro will forgive me for posting it publicly so that other people can give more info ...

Forgiven!

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 01, 2009, 10:35:54 PM

okay, I heard about US-140 from AARoads's own Andy Field verbally, and it was confirmed by someone else I talked to, a highway sign collector, who mentioned that NV never made any US-140 shields but they sure wanted to...

Thinking more about this from the Nevada perspective. . . .

I've discovered in the last few months that state highway numbers in Nevada used to be described legislatively. Each route was described with a separate entry in the state's highway laws and also later in what became the Nevada Revised Statutes. For longer routes, this was a general description of the route via certain towns or locales; for urban routes, it listed fairly specifically the streets the state highway followed. Legislative definitions of routes ceased after the highway renumbering in 1976.

Something to note from this is that routes were assigned more or less chronologically (although one or two numbers were never assigned, and some numbers were inexplicably reassigned). Through this method, state route numbers never made it higher than 93. However, NV 140 was legislated before the renumbering. This shows that there was concerted effort to at least number the highway as 140 in Nevada, because there were ~40-50 numbers skipped when 140 was assigned.

Incidentally, Nevada's legislative numbers were given with no regard for US highways (or the later Interstates), and only state routes were mentioned in the laws. The highway signed US 40 was legislatively SR 1; US 91 was SR 6; US 95 was SR 8, part of SR 1, SR 1A, part of SR 3, and SR 5; and so forth. I'm not sure as to what extent the state highways were cosigned with US routes, though. It is interesting to note that had US 140 been signed, it would be the only case where the legislative route and the US route were the same number.

It is also interesting to note that SR 140 was one of only three routes to retain its pre-1976 number (the others being 28 and 88). In this case, it is especially notable because NDOT planned to change it to SR 291 but never did.

All this to say that I'm finding more validity in reports of the proposed "US 140"/Winnemucca to the Sea Highway. . .

roadfro · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2009, 05:53:28 AM »

Just found this, courtesy of the Winnemucca Convention & Visitors Authority (which I didn't know existed):

http://www.winnemucca.nv.us/winnemucca_to_the_sea_highway.pdf

8 page PDF with some history and present-day route description and pictures.

I read the first pages on the Nevada portion and skimmed the rest, but it does seem to corroborate.

Tarkus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2009, 11:28:35 PM »

Very interesting stuff, roadfro and agentsteel. It would kind of make some sense with the anomalies in Oregon's numbering system in the southern part of the state as well.

Until 2002, when ODOT assigned a bunch of route numbers to state-maintained highways that previously didn't have them, there were only three 3-digit Oregon State Highways that began with 1: OR-126, OR-138 and OR-140.

OR-126 was actually US-126 until 1972 (and US-28 before US-26 was extended in 1951). And given that, along with the location and length of the other two 1XX routes (OR-138 runs along the north of Crater Lake National Park), I have had a hunch that ODOT had been planning on proposing OR-138 and OR-140 as US Highways back then. (138 seems like a silly number choice, though, as it has been in continuous use since 1926.)

OR-140/NV-140 is also the one of only three cases of Oregon route numbers being maintained across a state line--and the only substantial one. The Winnemucca Convention & Visitors Authority brochure seems to suggest ODOT may have been in on the "Winnemucca to the Sea"/US-140 scheme, too (see page 3).

According to Wikipedia, OR-138 and OR-140 were commissioned in the 1960s, before US-126 had been decommissioned. I'd be curious to know a more precise date on that, as well as the date when NV-140 got its current number. The "Winnemucca to the Sea" concept, according to the brochure, also involved US-199, which would have become "parentless" in 1964 with the decommissioning of US-99, and could have been renumbered as part of US-140.

Hope I didn't make too much of an off-road excursion bringing a bunch of Oregon stuff into the Pacific Southwest board . . .

-Alex (Tarkus)

Alex · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2009, 01:34:55 PM »

How would the number of MSR 140 to U.S. 140 played out given that the Maryland to Pennsylvania one lasted until 1980?

Bickendan · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2009, 03:33:55 PM »

A possible reason why OR/NV 140 never became US 140? Were there any unassigned x40's, so the DOT's settled on 140 as (at least in Oregon) the number was still low enough to function as a primary highway?

roadfro · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:50:43 PM »

Quote from: Tarkus on July 02, 2009, 11:28:35 PM

According to Wikipedia, OR-138 and OR-140 were commissioned in the 1960s, before US-126 had been decommissioned. I'd be curious to know a more precise date on that, as well as the date when NV-140 got its current number.

Oregon seems to have made the paved connection between Adel and the OR/NV state line by the beginning of 1963; it first appears on the 1963-64 edition of NDOT's state highway maps. Previously, the connection was more indirect heading south from Adel to NV 34, then east via NV 34A to NV 8A, all of which were unimproved or gravel roads; the paved road went southeast directly to an unnumbered extension of NV 8A.

The road appears to have received the 140 number in both states at some point in 1967. NDOT's 1967 still shows NV 8A on the Nevada side and no number on the Oregon side. The 1968 map shows SR 140 in Oregon and replacing NV 8A between the state line and US 95. 140 is not shown as overlapping with US 95 to Winnemucca, however.

Since Nevada routes were mentioned in state law at the time, the number change would probably have occurred while the legislature was in session. The Nevada Legislature typically passes its bills in second quarter of odd numbered years.

agentsteel53 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2009, 11:50:23 PM »

Quote from: AARoads on July 03, 2009, 01:34:55 PM

How would the number of MSR 140 to U.S. 140 played out given that the Maryland to Pennsylvania one lasted until 1980?

that I couldn't even begin to tell you. I need to hear Andy's explanation of it again. I remember raising that exact objection and he just shrugged.

in general, as for it being an x40, as opposed to an x95, is, I believe, because US-95 came down from Idaho in 1939. This leads me to believe the original US-140 plan dates back to before then, and when 95 was extended, that section of road did not need to be planned to be an x40 any more. At that time, why they didn't propose the route be called US-495, I do not know. It would've even made sense in the numbering order, as 195, 295, and 395 were all north of it. (this as opposed to US-460, which is far east of other x60 branches)

US-495 would've been accepted without reservation, I'd imagine.

another question I do not know the answer to is: where did the proposed route go "to the sea"? Oregon 140 does not make it all the way to the coast. It ends in Medford. One possible routing is to go along US-99 from Medford to Grants Pass, and then down US-199 to Crescent City. Alternately, one can take the Merlin road west out of Grants Pass, to Agness and Gold Beach. This road is shown as a gray line on my Rand McNally map.

Bickendan · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2009, 01:07:40 AM »

OR 140 doesn't even make it to Medford. It begins at OR 62 about 10 miles north of Medford in White City.

Also, I wouldn't consider using any non-SR roads across the Coastals south of OR 42 due to poor (nonexistant) signing in the mountains.

agentsteel53 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2009, 10:30:45 AM »

maybe today the signage is pretty terrible, but back in the 1920s when the trail was originally being considered, that gray line road through the coastal range may have been the primary through route.

xonhulu · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2009, 11:55:13 AM »

That "gray line" across the Coast Range is the Bear Camp Pass Road. It is poorly signed, but more importantly is narrow (one lane with pullouts), winding, and difficult to keep open in winter. I've driven it twice, and it's a very scenic road. However, the winter conditions and poor signage have been a problem. A few years back, a family got stuck in snow trying to take this route in winter and the father died trying to walk out to get help.

However, the road could be improved to US Highway standards and used as a potential routing of US 140. I've proposed improving it and making it OR 44 in another strand.

xonhulu · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2009, 10:33:22 PM »

I just got back from a trip to southern Oregon and drove a good hunk of OR/NV 140, from Klamath Falls to Denio. Great drive through some very empty country, especially east of Lakeview.

I saw quite a few (6) different shield goof-ups along the way with US 140 instead of OR 140, so I thought I'd share some. The double mix-up with US 97 in Klamath Falls has been there for awhile, but I think the rest are pretty new. Don't get excited; I'm sure these are mistakes as Oregon has quite a lot of these; I also saw US 39, US 205, US 58, OR 97, OR 20, OR 395 and OR 199 shields.

Somebody in K Falls is really confused:

This one's my favorite:

Just west of Lakeview:

There's another US 140 on the other end of Adel. Oddly, the wrong signs are entering Adel, but leaving Adel in both directions have the proper Oregon state route shield:

agentsteel53 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:08:47 AM »

I took photos of some of those signs in Dec '07.

Adel Pass, westbound.

140 at 395:

I turned south on the 395, so did not make it to Klamath Falls. The US-140 sign there must be new since I did not see it in August '06 or April '07. In August '06 there was this sign in Klamath Falls.

agentsteel53 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:11:51 AM »

as for US-205, is that a goof with I-205? If so, that's pretty odd! Can you post that, and the US-39? There are some US-39 references in Montana. In Oregon, I've seen US-27, US-82, and US-126 (an error, not an old sign) and countless going the other way ... OR-20, OR-395, etc.

xonhulu · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:33:58 AM »

Love the winter scenes! I'd heard about the 395/140 assembly from somewhere before I got there; that may have been something you posted referring to that photo.

The "US 140/OR 97" isn't that new; I first saw it a few years ago. It's on the corner of 6th and Main. Your photo is a few blocks east of that.

205 is one of the two numbers in Oregon which are duplicated between interstate and state routes (the other is 82). OR 205 runs south from Burns through Frenchglen. That's where the photo is from, just north of a place called "Narrows." I have never seen any shield errors in Oregon involving interstates and other routes, but that would be pretty cool.

I've seen so many examples of the wrong shield used in Oregon that it's gotten too tedious to list all the examples here, but here are the US 39 and US 205:

agentsteel53 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:46:41 AM »

thanks! I posted my photos in the summer of '08, only six months after I took them in Dec 07. These are the conditions I had to deal with going down Adel Pass!

I must've just flat out missed that 140/97 when I was in Klamath Falls. I remember scouring the town for other cutouts when the 97 and 39 pair were still around. They vanished sometime between Aug 06 and Apr 07, alas. The last Oregon US cutout that I knew of, not counting the Oregon US shield on a green sign on I-5 south in Portland that is covered up by a not completely opaque regular US-26 shield.

I knew about 82, did not know that 205 was also a state route. Goofs with interstates are always the most interesting, especially if it's a non-I-route in an I-shield. For the longest time there was a perfect '61 spec CA I-101 shield on a white sign in a construction zone between the East LA and Four-Level intersections and the traffic was always too heavy for me to get a good picture! Of course now it is gone...

xonhulu · « **Reply #16 on:** August 21, 2009, 01:50:16 AM »

Yeah, I haven't seen any US cutouts in Oregon for ages.

Sykotyk · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2009, 09:55:57 PM »

I drove that NV-140 in winter, but was beautiful that time.

http://www.sykotyk.com/supertrip/route140.html

Sykotyk

roadfro · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2009, 03:44:06 PM »

Great pics, Sykotyk. An interesting drive in the middle of nowhere, to say the least.

Bickendan · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2009, 04:09:42 AM »

The US 26 cutout on I-5 south has been replaced.

agentsteel53 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2009, 04:16:44 AM »

Quote from: Bickendan on September 03, 2009, 04:09:42 AM

The US 26 cutout on I-5 south has been replaced.

you mean the US-26 on the green sign, with the 405 shield too? yeah, that one has been gone for a while. If you know any others......

Rover_0 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 17, 2009, 02:40:44 PM »

So (disregarding that I didn't read every post word-for-word), is there any possibility that this route could become a US Route (whether it be US-140, US-28, US-38, etc.)? I personally think that this would make a great US Route, regardless of its number.

Bickendan · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2009, 08:20:22 PM »

Bud Schuster called. He wants it to be US 238.

roadfro · « **Reply #23 on:** October 17, 2009, 08:34:59 PM »

Quote from: Rover_0 on October 17, 2009, 02:40:44 PM

So (disregarding that I didn't read every post word-for-word), is there any possibility that this route could become a US Route (whether it be US-140, US-28, US-38, etc.)? I personally think that this would make a great US Route, regardless of its number.

I don't see this happening anytime soon. I'm not sure that the AASHTO route numbering committee would view it as a logical addition to the US route system. If so, the designation would have to follow OR 140 west past Klamath Falls in order to pass the 300 mile requirement that AASHTO has for new US routes (although, I'm not sure if that applies to spurs). Even if it were to get a US route number, it wouldn't be 140. With the reversed placement of US 20 and US 30 in Oregon, I'm not sure where this would fall in the 2-digit numbering scheme. It might be more likely to get an x95 or x97 designation if actually numbered.

In any event, both Oregon and Nevada would have to submit applications to AASHTO in order for them to consider a US route number for the Winnemucca to the Sea Highway alignment. It seems that neither state is currently interested in pursuing this.

xonhulu · « **Reply #24 on:** October 18, 2009, 11:05:59 AM »

It's hard to figure just what the Route Numbering Committee considers "logical" anymore, given some of their recent history. I would think they'd go along if Oregon and Nevada requested it. As for the number, they recently approved US 121 which has no connection to US 21, although it does intersect the historic route of 21. So I don't think 140 would be unacceptable as a number, for 2 reasons: it comes close enough to the historic routing of 40 to be a plausible branch, and (most importantly) the route already bears the designation, you're just trading in state shields for US markers. Still, I agree with you: I don't see US 140 happening any time soon, if ever.

News:

Author Topic: Winnemucca to the Sea Highway (Read 23429 times)