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Author Topic: Interstate 269  (Read 206408 times)

sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #650 on: September 06, 2018, 07:49:10 PM »

My guess is, they will drive around the wave of orange cones and temporary jersey barriers just to get onto the highways! I'm guessing they're so excited about their forthcoming opening that they don't want to wait that long just to drive even one mile.

I'd instead guess that those who drive on I-269 pre-opening are either (a) "thrillseekers" attempting to see just what they can get away with, (b) smart-asses trying to forge a shortcut between I-55 and I-22 before it becomes ready to use, or (c) ignorant types who just don't understand the meaning of barriers, even if they don't fully close off the means of egress onto the new facility.  Maybe there might be a miscreant roadgeek within one of the above categories -- but somehow I doubt that particular predilection would be dominant here; driving an unfinished road is usually a "crime of opportunity"!
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oscar

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #651 on: September 09, 2018, 12:42:47 PM »

I recall that an about-to-open segment of I-805 in San Diego was used for drag racing. I don't know if any of the racers were ever arrested.
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #652 on: September 11, 2018, 04:17:24 PM »

Heh, I did that a few times on part of US 53 before the freeway officially opened through Eau Claire. :biggrin:

Best part was doing that as the snow was still melting off the fully paved roadway in March.
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silverback1065

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #653 on: September 13, 2018, 04:36:11 PM »

in all honesty, does this road really need to exist?  what is the AADT on the portion that has been open for a while?
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froggie

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #654 on: September 13, 2018, 06:09:48 PM »

^ Technically, if you want I-22 to end at a proper Interstate, then yes, it's "needed".

As for your second question, the completed segment north of MS 302 had a 2017 AADT of 8200.  For the record, that's higher than about half of the new I-69 between Evansville and Bloomington.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #655 on: September 13, 2018, 06:33:17 PM »

in all honesty, does this road really need to exist?  what is the AADT on the portion that has been open for a while?

Last published AADT on I-269 between the MS state line and US 72 (presumably before the extension past I-22/US 78 opened) was 8,200.

In Tennessee, the portion of SR 385 / (future?) I-269 south of I-40 was running about 18,000.

Is I-269 necessary today?  Probably not.

Will I-269 be needed 10-20 years from now?  Probably, if DeSoto County and/or long-haul trucking volumes continue to grow.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #656 on: September 13, 2018, 06:36:57 PM »

It will likely be far more than 10-20 years before Interstate 269 connects with Interstate 69 on both ends.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #657 on: September 13, 2018, 09:02:53 PM »

It will likely be far more than 10-20 years before Interstate 269 connects with Interstate 69 on both ends.

True, but I would expect it to find its footing as long-haul trucking bypass that doesn't add to the mess of I-240, or serving/fueling new outer-metro development long before SIU 8 is built (if it is ever built).
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #658 on: September 14, 2018, 07:31:12 AM »

^^^^^^^
Unless commercial and housing development expanding outward from Memphis overtakes I-269, it'll probably remain one of the region's lesser trucking thoroughfares -- at least until I-69 is completed both north and south of metro Memphis.  There just isn't a huge volume of traffic heading north on I-55 that turns east on I-40 at this time. 
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lordsutch

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #659 on: September 14, 2018, 04:58:18 PM »

^^^^^^^
Unless commercial and housing development expanding outward from Memphis overtakes I-269, it'll probably remain one of the region's lesser trucking thoroughfares -- at least until I-69 is completed both north and south of metro Memphis.  There just isn't a huge volume of traffic heading north on I-55 that turns east on I-40 at this time. 

There's a lot of warehouse space going in already along the I-269 corridor south of Collierville, and Norfolk Southern has been expanding its intermodal terminal just east of I-269, so it could get pretty crowded just from locally originating and arriving traffic.
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #660 on: September 14, 2018, 09:48:35 PM »

^^^^^^^
Unless commercial and housing development expanding outward from Memphis overtakes I-269, it'll probably remain one of the region's lesser trucking thoroughfares -- at least until I-69 is completed both north and south of metro Memphis.  There just isn't a huge volume of traffic heading north on I-55 that turns east on I-40 at this time. 

There's a lot of warehouse space going in already along the I-269 corridor south of Collierville, and Norfolk Southern has been expanding its intermodal terminal just east of I-269, so it could get pretty crowded just from locally originating and arriving traffic.

Wow!  Sounds like the I-269 corridor is being groomed as FedEx East!  I-69 development better get cracking sooner than later to provide egress to and from Memphis from all directions; that metro area is certainly positioning itself as the southern version (if not equivalent) of Chicago as far as being "distribution central" (but we sort of knew that all along!).
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Bobby5280

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #661 on: September 16, 2018, 02:59:14 PM »

They still need to do something about the bottleneck at the Mississippi River. That along with the unfinished I-69 corridor will limit the appeal of I-269. The narrow I-55 bridge across the Mississippi has puny traffic capacity (4 lanes, no shoulders). I-40 is a little better, but still pretty substandard for big picture needs. At least 1 or 2 new Mississippi River crossings are needed. The I-55 bridge needs to be replaced, and its approach thru Memphis to the Mississippi completely re-done. I don't know if the existing I-40 bridge can be expanded from 6 to 8 lanes (with shoulders), but a bridge like that is needed. If new bridges didn't cost a ridiculous fortune it would be pretty obvious the SW end of I-269 should be extended across the Mississippi River to hook up to I-40 in Arkansas (or I-22 should be routed that way). Really one could make a good case for extending I-269 across the Mississippi at both ends North and South of Memphis.
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #662 on: September 17, 2018, 01:24:05 AM »

in all honesty, does this road really need to exist?  what is the AADT on the portion that has been open for a while?
This is a good question. Is the interstate between I-22/Hwy 78 to I-55 needed? I think so. I think there is a lot of potential there. Is I 269 needed from I-22/Hwy 78 to I-40? It's probably not.
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #663 on: September 17, 2018, 05:33:39 AM »

in all honesty, does this road really need to exist?  what is the AADT on the portion that has been open for a while?
This is a good question. Is the interstate between I-22/Hwy 78 to I-55 needed? I think so. I think there is a lot of potential there. Is I 269 needed from I-22/Hwy 78 to I-40? It's probably not.

Within TN (and north of I-22 in MS for that matter) it's an outer loop intended to divert traffic away from Memphis (although without a complete -- at least north of Memphis -- I-69, its value as that is limited).  From what is stated a few posts back, there is commercial development happening along that corridor, so it may have some local value as such.  To me -- except for its I-22 connection -- it fills the same role as I-265 around Louisville, KY vis-a-vis I-264; the latter (with I-240 as its Memphis analogue) is so inundated with development as to limit its utility as a real bypass; the outer (I-265/Louisville and I-269/Memphis) is positioned to do a better job in that regard.   
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froggie

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #664 on: September 17, 2018, 01:10:48 PM »

Quote
I don't know if the existing I-40 bridge can be expanded from 6 to 8 lanes (with shoulders)

It's a through arch bridge, so basically no.

Agree that the Memphis area needs another crossing, but it currently cannot even afford one new crossing, let alone two plus bridge replacements.

From a traffic perspective, the best option would be one extending from the TN 300 spur off I-40/Exit 2A (same location I-69 will split off I-40), crossing the river and bottoms, and reconnecting in the vicinity of the I-40/55 interchange in West Memphis.  This location provides the most utility to traffic.  Crossings at each end of I-269 have been looked at...and while they may help some of the through traffic, they wouldn't capture all through traffic and would do little to address the real issue at the river:  regional traffic within the Memphis area.
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MikeTheActuary

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #665 on: September 17, 2018, 04:18:04 PM »

It's a through arch bridge, so basically no.

Agree that the Memphis area needs another crossing, but it currently cannot even afford one new crossing, let alone two plus bridge replacements.

From a traffic perspective, the best option would be one extending from the TN 300 spur off I-40/Exit 2A (same location I-69 will split off I-40), crossing the river and bottoms, and reconnecting in the vicinity of the I-40/55 interchange in West Memphis.  This location provides the most utility to traffic.  Crossings at each end of I-269 have been looked at...and while they may help some of the through traffic, they wouldn't capture all through traffic and would do little to address the real issue at the river:  regional traffic within the Memphis area.


Back when I was a kid living in Memphis, and had the benefit of having a father working in the planning department feeding me "inside information", the TN 300 crossing was considered one of the less-likely alternatives.  While there are some advantages for putting a crossing there, that option had the disadvantages of requiring significant environmental mitigation (the floodplain is very wide at that point), requiring closure of the DeWitt-Spain airport, and doing little to address the issue of Arkansas«»Mississippi traffic.

(That latter point might be less of a concern now, as the the thinking didn't really contemplate the de facto CBD shifting out to East Memphis.)

If there were to be a third crossing, a southern option would have been more likely.  Back in the day, the pie-in-the-sky dream would have put that crossing south of the Allen power plant and sewer treatment facility, connecting to a planned (never built) parkway running more-or-less along the southern edge of the county.

I assume that a southern option is still more likely, but now the powers-that-be would aim for a crossing at the narrow stretch of river above Horshoe Lake / near Walls, MS, and then connect to I-69 from there.  However, I can't imagine any of the three states having sufficient interest to push very hard for a new bridge, and there are plenty of pet projects elsewhere in the country that would be happy to gobble up any federal funds that would otherwise go towards a new crossing.

It might be fun to speculate as to which will get built first:  I-69 between Millington and Dyersburg, or a new Memphis crossing.  :)
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jamierazorback

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #666 on: September 17, 2018, 08:07:50 PM »

It's a through arch bridge, so basically no.

Agree that the Memphis area needs another crossing, but it currently cannot even afford one new crossing, let alone two plus bridge replacements.

From a traffic perspective, the best option would be one extending from the TN 300 spur off I-40/Exit 2A (same location I-69 will split off I-40), crossing the river and bottoms, and reconnecting in the vicinity of the I-40/55 interchange in West Memphis.  This location provides the most utility to traffic.  Crossings at each end of I-269 have been looked at...and while they may help some of the through traffic, they wouldn't capture all through traffic and would do little to address the real issue at the river:  regional traffic within the Memphis area.



I assume that a southern option is still more likely, but now the powers-that-be would aim for a crossing at the narrow stretch of river above Horshoe Lake / near Walls, MS, and then connect to I-69 from there.  However, I can't imagine any of the three states having sufficient interest to push very hard for a new bridge, and there are plenty of pet projects elsewhere in the country that would be happy to gobble up any federal funds that would otherwise go towards a new crossing.

It might be fun to speculate as to which will get built first:  I-69 between Millington and Dyersburg, or a new Memphis crossing.  :)
My guess would be I-69 from Millington to Memphis. There seems to be a push to get I-69 complete to Memphis. I think a bridge crossing will happen way before or if I 69 ever gets completed from Tunica through Texas. Honestly, I don't know if the funding will ever be there for that, when you can use I 55 to I-10 or I-40 down through Little Rock to Texas. But that's another argument. IF there is another crossing over Memphis, logic would say it would be to the south, with a potential I-22 crossing the river around the Tunica Resorts area and connecting with I-40. The only other option and it was talked about, is having I-269 extend north of Meeman Shelby Forest state park and crossing the river there. It would connect with I-55 and be a logical northern bypass of Memphis for people trying to get to Jonesboro and southern Missouri. I know the idea was floated of making that section of I-269 a toll road, to help pay for the bridge. Honestly if the money was there, both bridges and roads in this location make sense. Memphis is already no fan of I-269 and the idea of having a full southern and northern bypass would not excite the local politicians. To say the least. So other than finances, politics are also involved. Anyone who doesn't know, that's a big reason I-40 never went directly through Memphis.
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rlb2024

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #667 on: September 17, 2018, 10:22:04 PM »

Any further word on when the stretch between I-22 and I-55 will open?
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Bobby5280

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #668 on: September 18, 2018, 12:04:06 AM »

Without at least one new Mississippi River crossing, either North or South of Memphis, I-269 will not work as a proper bypass for either I-40 or I-55. Those are the two major Interstates generating lots of commercial and private long distance traffic. I-69 will not be a serious long distance traffic generator as long as it remains unfinished. And even then it will have limited appeal for its really long, crooked route.

A Southern bridge crossing near Tunica (either as I-22 or I-269) connecting to I-40 in Arkansas would give I-40 traffic a fully functional bypass around the South side of the Memphis area. A Northern bridge crossing from the end of I-269 near Millington over to I-55 in Arkansas would give I-55 a fully functional bypass around the East side of Memphis.

I think the Southern bridge idea would have more appeal for multiple reasons. There's not nearly as much swamp flanking the river near Tunica as there is up near Millington. That would make the Southern bridge less expensive to build. The bypass route for I-40 thru traffic going by way of Tunica would be more direct than I-55 traffic going way around the eastern outskirts of Memphis and then back over to Arkansas. I think lots of I-55 traffic would just stay on I-55. Tunica is a big tourist attraction. There's lots of I-40 traffic from the West going there. And then there's traffic heading for the I-22 corridor.

IMHO, a new bridge crossing near Tunica is arguably a bigger, more immediate need than the Great River Bridge project about 85 miles farther South. It may be decades before I-69 is fleshed out to either end of that bridge approach. The only reason I can see building the Great River Bridge now is getting ahead of further cost inflation. But that same problem exists for other Mississippi River crossings needed elsewhere.
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sparker

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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #669 on: September 18, 2018, 12:42:47 AM »

^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^
Part of the problem is that TN state government has never been a fan of Memphis and its MPO; the sociopolitical differences are, in a word, dramatic.  Memphis was one of a handful of Southern cities (along with New Orleans & Atlanta) that actively took part in the '60's-'70's "freeway revolt" with the truncation/reroute of I-40 -- and the powers that be in Nashville haven't forgotten that; Memphis is the localized "poster child" for what in some quarters is derided as "urban activism", anathema to more conservative political circles that have occupied Southern state politics for the last 40 years.  And unlike in GA, state government doesn't have to deal with the urban situations on a daily basis simply because the capital is some 200 miles away from that urban environment.  While Memphis may be at best indifferent to the I-269/TN 385 loop, it's likely seen in Nashville as a way to induce economic power away from Memphis itself toward the outer exurbs, which are seen as more compliant with their agendas, particularly if corporate centers would locate around that periphery.  FedEx's main hub near Memphis Airport provided a needed economic "boost" to the central city despite that firm's own often negative attitude toward urban priorities; providing a "counterbalance" by stacking up employment centers along the eastern I-269 corridor, including rail-to-truck transloading facilities, would dovetail in with the general leanings of those running TN state government. 

If such development flourishes, it wouldn't be a stretch to see a proposal to take the I-269/TN 385 E-W trajectory north of the city across the river to intersect I-55 near the I-555 junction -- simply as a way to further remove the incorporated Memphis city from the regional economic equation by providing a direct cross-river connection that removes traffic bound for the I-269 commercial developments away from I-40 and/or I-240 through the central city.  As has been seen in the last couple of years, longstanding sociopolitical grudges can precipitate policy changes; in this case, revival of previously discarded plans -- but with different rationalizations.
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #670 on: September 18, 2018, 11:12:14 AM »

Once I-269 and I-69 are fleshed out, a southern bypass of Memphis doesn't have to involve Memphis or even Tennessee whatsoever, just Mississippi and Arkansas.  If we're honest about finances, though, it'll be federal money that enables crossing the Mississippi River with the finances of those states, so the Memphis MSA would have some say there.  But it's likely that something catastrophic occurring with one of the current bridges is what it would take to actually make the push of any other crossing within the next 20 years.
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #671 on: September 18, 2018, 12:04:34 PM »

^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^
Part of the problem is that TN state government has never been a fan of Memphis and its MPO; the sociopolitical differences are, in a word, dramatic.  Memphis was one of a handful of Southern cities (along with New Orleans & Atlanta) that actively took part in the '60's-'70's "freeway revolt" with the truncation/reroute of I-40 -- and the powers that be in Nashville haven't forgotten that; Memphis is the localized "poster child" for what in some quarters is derided as "urban activism", anathema to more conservative political circles that have occupied Southern state politics for the last 40 years.  And unlike in GA, state government doesn't have to deal with the urban situations on a daily basis simply because the capital is some 200 miles away from that urban environment.  While Memphis may be at best indifferent to the I-269/TN 385 loop, it's likely seen in Nashville as a way to induce economic power away from Memphis itself toward the outer exurbs, which are seen as more compliant with their agendas, particularly if corporate centers would locate around that periphery.  FedEx's main hub near Memphis Airport provided a needed economic "boost" to the central city despite that firm's own often negative attitude toward urban priorities; providing a "counterbalance" by stacking up employment centers along the eastern I-269 corridor, including rail-to-truck transloading facilities, would dovetail in with the general leanings of those running TN state government. 

If such development flourishes, it wouldn't be a stretch to see a proposal to take the I-269/TN 385 E-W trajectory north of the city across the river to intersect I-55 near the I-555 junction -- simply as a way to further remove the incorporated Memphis city from the regional economic equation by providing a direct cross-river connection that removes traffic bound for the I-269 commercial developments away from I-40 and/or I-240 through the central city.  As has been seen in the last couple of years, longstanding sociopolitical grudges can precipitate policy changes; in this case, revival of previously discarded plans -- but with different rationalizations.

Such logic would help explain why TDOT is in no rush to complete I-69 between Dyersburg and Memphis.  Getting the road completed through the more "politically friendly" region between Dyersburg and Fulton, particularly with Interstate linkages on either end of that segment appears to be about as far as TDOT will ever go with I-69. 
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #672 on: September 18, 2018, 04:09:05 PM »

Wouldn't be the first red state to punish its liberal enclaves with petty, vindictive bullshit.

This is a place where the federal government would be useful.  Facilitating interstate commerce.  There's dozens of places where leadership at the national level could get something done while states bicker and cry poverty.  Instead we have... not that.
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #673 on: September 18, 2018, 08:23:50 PM »

Wouldn't be the first red state to punish its liberal enclaves with petty, vindictive bullshit.

This is a place where the federal government would be useful.  Facilitating interstate commerce.  There's dozens of places where leadership at the national level could get something done while states bicker and cry poverty.  Instead we have... not that.

There are blue states that do the same thing to red enclaves within those states, so it goes both ways...just depends on what state you're in.  That aside, regardless of what political party folks are affiliated with, it sure would be nice if our elected officials would put the people they've been elected to serve ahead of their party ideologies.  I think more would get done if the two sides would come together, have a civilized conversation and make compromises. 
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Re: Interstate 269
« Reply #674 on: September 18, 2018, 09:16:13 PM »

Once I-269 and I-69 are fleshed out, a southern bypass of Memphis doesn't have to involve Memphis or even Tennessee whatsoever, just Mississippi and Arkansas.  If we're honest about finances, though, it'll be federal money that enables crossing the Mississippi River with the finances of those states, so the Memphis MSA would have some say there.  But it's likely that something catastrophic occurring with one of the current bridges is what it would take to actually make the push of any other crossing within the next 20 years.

Given that the states you mention are still trying to figure out how to pay for the "Great River Bridge" (I-69), I wouldn't look for a southern Memphis-area crossing anytime soon...
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