Pedestrian signals - Why Orange/White only in the US/Canada?

[TheStranger]

Is that supposed to be orange? It always looked red to me, or at least close enough to red that I didn't perceive the intended color as different from the red used for motorists.

Yeah, I also thought the do-not-walk lighting for pedestrian crossings was red, and that any perceived "orange" was a function of bulb brightness rather than the general color of such signals.

[jeffandnicole]

I've only lived in 2 houses in my life (excluding my college years) but yet I've managed to live on streets with uncontrolled intersections within developments.  None of them ever caused any issues.

My current street was repaved a few years back, along with a similar street a few blocks down. That street does have a stop sign, and after the paving was finished, they painted a stop bar on the pavement.  I figured my street would be brought up to date as well.  But since my street didn't have a stop sign, they left it as is, and didn't put a stop bar down either!

[jeffandnicole]

Here's another uncontrolled intersection I'm well aware of.  It's a one way, plenty of One Way and Do Not Enter signage, but has never had a 'Stop' Sign.

http://goo.gl/maps/1Kkmh

No one would ever confuse who has the right of way here.  Although people do get confused in that when turning left, you are allowed to be on the left side of this street...since it is a one way.

[vdeane]

Thinking about it some more, there are some ones here and there around the Rochester area.  They're definitely not the norm, and they're also on older streets that haven't seen anything more than a minor resurfacing in more than 50 years.  I wonder if the towns just forgot the signs.  One formerly uncontrolled intersection got an all-way stop when the roads were rebuilt.

The city of Rome has some uncontrolled intersections for narrow alleys (many of which aren't even marked on Google Maps)... not sure if that counts or not.

[Brandon]

I don't usually see uncontrolled intersections in urban areas, or even suburban areas for that matter.  I usually see these on gravel or chip and seal roads in rural areas with extremely low traffic counts.

Examples (and these are just the ones on GSV):

Schoolhouse and Pauling, Manhattan Twp, Will County, IL
88th Ave and Brittany Lane, Green Garden Twp, Will County, IL

There's a lot more, but GSV never goes down those roads.

[1995hoo]

I think I saw some uncontrolled intersections around 30 years ago in Moosonee and Moose Factory, Ontario, but since there were very few vehicles there and the towns aren't connected to any part of the North American road network, it didn't really matter.

All the residential areas near me have stop signs at every intersection. The one exception was the T-intersection outside my parents' house in Fairfax, which had just a yield sign on one corner, but when their new neighbor complained to the county that it was too hard to see the street sign, VDOT came out and moved the street sign and replaced the yield sign with a stop sign. (Dumb: turning either way at that T-intersection puts you on a cul-de-sac at either end, no outlet except going back up the hill.)

[Pink Jazz]

Is that supposed to be orange? It always looked red to me, or at least close enough to red that I didn't perceive the intended color as different from the red used for motorists.

Yes.  The shade of orange is known as Portland Orange.  The difference is more noticeable when seen from head-on.

[roadfro]

Is that supposed to be orange? It always looked red to me, or at least close enough to red that I didn't perceive the intended color as different from the red used for motorists.

Yes.  The shade of orange is known as Portland Orange.  The difference is more noticeable when seen from head-on.

I think back in the days of neon ped signals displaying "Dont Walk" or "Wait" messages, the orange neon looked much closer to red (i.e. Crayola's 'red-orange') than they do now with LEDs. But yeah, it's always been a pretty clear distinction to me.

[TEG24601]

I've never seen Orange/White pedestrian signals.  Could someone post an example?


The only orange (amber) and white lights I've seen are those for Light Rail, usually when in mixed traffic.  Like the MAX in Portland, OR.

Looks Red to me.

[Brandon]

I've never seen Orange/White pedestrian signals.  Could someone post an example?


The only orange (amber) and white lights I've seen are those for Light Rail, usually when in mixed traffic.  Like the MAX in Portland, OR.

Looks Red to me.

That's very distinctly orange, not red.

[cl94]

I've never seen Orange/White pedestrian signals.  Could someone post an example?


The only orange (amber) and white lights I've seen are those for Light Rail, usually when in mixed traffic.  Like the MAX in Portland, OR.

Looks Red to me.

That's very distinctly orange, not red.

It's the color of orange Kool-Aid. Slightly redder than the traditional "orange", but orange nonetheless.

[vdeane]

Looks orange to my eyes.  It might be worth noting that no two people see color the exact same way.

[wisvishr0]

I don't usually see uncontrolled intersections in urban areas, or even suburban areas for that matter.  I usually see these on gravel or chip and seal roads in rural areas with extremely low traffic counts.

While not very common, a lot of the suburbs in the Bethesda and Potomac areas that were built in the 60s and 70s have uncontrolled T-junctions (and we're not very far from DC, only about 7 miles. Hardly a rural area!)

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0524745,-77.1782902,3a,48.3y,320.82h,84.84t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sSXBYmrI8WnfZKJXTzzCdzg!2e0

The practice is to yield to the people on the through street, which is apparently a violation of the Driver's Manual in Wisconsin?

EDIT: Not Wisconsin. I meant Washington.

[Pink Jazz]

Looks orange to my eyes.  It might be worth noting that no two people see color the exact same way.

Well, someone with tritanopia would see orange as a pinkish red.  But that hand definitely looks orange to me.

[mrsman]

Is that supposed to be orange? It always looked red to me, or at least close enough to red that I didn't perceive the intended color as different from the red used for motorists.

Yes.  The shade of orange is known as Portland Orange.  The difference is more noticeable when seen from head-on.

I think back in the days of neon ped signals displaying "Dont Walk" or "Wait" messages, the orange neon looked much closer to red (i.e. Crayola's 'red-orange') than they do now with LEDs. But yeah, it's always been a pretty clear distinction to me.

Right, and the neon lights that I remember seeing in the LA area had a red "Wait" and a green "Walk" and I don't think they ever had a flashing phase.  They were so low, that I don't beleive that any driver would've confused them for their traffic lights, despite the color.

In some intersections that don't include pedestrian lights, the standard RYG lights control both peds and vehicles.  If there  are any left arrows or other indications  where the pedestrian may be allowed to cross, even though the traffic light they see is red, you'd likely see a left side louvred traffic light in place of a ped light.

[Mdcastle]

I'm lucky enough to own a couple of examples of California neon, and have talked on the phone several times with the person who's the definitive resource on them. Basically they evolved from:
"Heavy Cast' to the lighter "E8" housing
"Neon Red" (The orange-red produced by clear neon filled tubes) and Green to Portland Orange and Lunar White
"Wait / "Walk" to "Walk/Don't Walk"
"Exposed tube" to backlit

Also, not specific to any models they went from not flashing to flashing. By far the most popular configurations were the heavy cast neon red/green wait/walk, the E8 neon red/green  walk/don't walk, and the backlit lunar white walk/don't walk. Later a lot of the old neon was stripped and replaced with neon in sealed modules made by ICC. (Later still ICC made their own version, then neon that included a switching power supply in the sealed module that would fit in a standard 16" housing.

They never used pure red neon, although it was available. Portland Orange was neon with a yellow phosphor. Green and Lunar White are both argon/mercury with phosphors. They degrade with time and are not restorable. Portland Orange and Lunar White tubing are no longer available, but there are close substitutes.

IMG_3455 by North Star Highways, on Flickr

98-IMG_3268 by North Star Highways, on Flickr
99-IMG_3352 by North Star Highways, on Flickr

[mrsman]

I always thought it interesting how they were able to get both a "red" and a "green" WALK in the same compartment.  In the old WAIT/WALK signals, obviously WAIT and WALK were in two separate compartments and they would not be lit at the same time, unless there was a malfunction.

Mdcastle, are you aware how it was done?  From your picture it looks like there is only one set of tubing for "WALK".  How would it sometimes show red and sometimes show green?

[cl94]

I always thought it interesting how they were able to get both a "red" and a "green" WALK in the same compartment.  In the old WAIT/WALK signals, obviously WAIT and WALK were in two separate compartments and they would not be lit at the same time, unless there was a malfunction.

Mdcastle, are you aware how it was done?  From your picture it looks like there is only one set of tubing for "WALK".  How would it sometimes show red and sometimes show green?

Looks like a split tube to me, given how certain sections of each letter only illuminate for one color.

[Pink Jazz]

I am actually curious if a question asking "What colors are used to represent Don't Walk and Walk on pedestrian signals in the United States?" were asked on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire (with the choices being A. Red and Green, B. Yellow and Blue, C. Orange and White, and D. Pink and Purple), would someone be tempted to choose choice A based on natural instinct.  I wonder how many people actually know that pedestrian signals in the United States are orange and white, not red and green.

[woodpusher]

Hmm....nobody picked up on my warning/regulatory point.

Maybe from the driver's perspective, "WALK" is regulatory - if the WALK sign is on, then don't turn if there are pedestrians in the crosswalk; "DON'T WALK" is severe warning; it's OK to turn (theoretically). 

From the pedestrian's perspective, "WALK" is not a command, just permission to walk.
"DON'T WALK" would be regulatory.
 

[jeffandnicole]

I am actually curious if a question asking "What colors are used to represent Don't Walk and Walk on pedestrian signals in the United States?" were asked on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire (with the choices being A. Red and Green, B. Yellow and Blue, C. Orange and White, and D. Pink and Purple), would someone be tempted to choose choice A based on natural instinct.  I wonder how many people actually know that pedestrian signals in the United States are orange and white, not red and green.

"Well, when I'm approaching an intersection and I'm a pedestrian, I'm using talking to my best friend and I've never noticed the color.  So I don't know if it's yellow and blue because blue is my favorite color since 3rd grade and Tommy from down the block would always find the prettiest blue flowers to give me on August 29th.  And Pink and Purple I think won't be the right answer because pink is a girly color and you know all them people that made traffic lights are guys and they wouldn't want to use a girly color for a walk sign, although now that I think about it I may have seen a purple sign somewhere when I was on my 40th annual cruise to the South Pacific last year.  So I think the answer has to be A or C, but I just don't know.  Can I use my lifeline?"

[M3019C LPS20]

I always thought it interesting how they were able to get both a "red" and a "green" WALK in the same compartment.  In the old WAIT/WALK signals, obviously WAIT and WALK were in two separate compartments and they would not be lit at the same time, unless there was a malfunction.

Below, are two pictures of the interior of an incandescent bi-modal head I own. This is the model LPS-20 from the Marbelite company.





For "DONT WALK," two incandescent lamps were in use. One for the "DONT" section. One for the "WALK" section. For "WALK," two lamps were in use here as well. A unique feature this pedestrian signal had, like other incandescent bi-modal heads, is that the incandescent lamps for "DONT WALK" were wired in series. So, if either one was no longer operable, the other one would not be illuminated. This prevented either a red (or Portland orange) "DONT" or "WALK," in which would have confused a pedestrian.

If I remember correctly, neon pedestrian signals never had this feature.

[Mdcastle]

The bent tube Don't/Walks (and notice how this has the apostrophe!) have two tubes in the Walk section, an opaque green tube on the bottom a clear "neon red" on the top, when the green or white tube on bottom. When the bottom was lit it would shine through the clear tube on top.  (And this setup would not have worked for a pure red or orange tube since those are opaque).

For the backlit models the tubing was bent back and forth and laid on top so the tubes alternated, these being generally orange and white with both tubes opaque.
IMG_5238 by North Star Highways, on Flickr

[M3019C LPS20]

Back to your original question, Pink Jazz. In the mid 1970s, New York City's then Department of Traffic first began to replace countless red and green lamps in pedestrian signals with those that were Portland orange and Lunar white.

According to the traffic commissioner, the new colors were more visible than the previous pair. They were also visible in direct sunlight.

Below, is an article that mentions this occurrence in New York City. From 1975. Courtesy of the New York Times.

[Mdcastle]

The neons all had the neon red or orange Walk and Dont's wired in series so they would both go out if a piece of tubing (or the transformer) burnt out. I don't think this was so much of a design feature as simply the way neon works- you don't wire tubes in parallel and if you have a high enough voltage you can drive tubes in series with one transformer. These aslo varied a bit depending on the model but for the neon red / green bent tubes the neon red was 7500 volts and the green was 4500 volts.