aaroads.com topics in 2064

[roadman]

Wonder how many Coke cans it would take to make an average sized BGS.

I thought briefly about trying to calculate that, but on a second thought I'm not even sure that BGSes are made from aluminum. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're made from something cheaper like steel.

Nearly all permanent road signs these days are fabricated from either flat sheet or extruded aluminum.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

It turns out we will have 57 states of America!

[21stCenturyRoad]

Construction has started on I-73 from the NC/VA state line to Roanoke.

Final segment of I-11 from Las Vegas to Reno is now complete.

[kalvado]

That's true but those refining processes are only getting better with time.  Four decades or so onward I think it would be safe to assume there would be further improvements in aluminum mining.

While improvements to aluminum smelting might happen, I think the fact that reuse is far more energy efficient than mining of new raw materials will dictate where a large portion of our aluminum comes from even 30+ years from now. (The amount of material recycled, as well as the efficiency of recycling, could both improve as well.)

All of that being said, even with the widespread use of the metal for highway signs, I really quite doubt that particular use being a significant source of the metal in the future.

Cost of raw Aluminum is primarily cost of energy consumed by the electrolysis. That is decreasing, but there is a low limit for that, and that limit is not very far. Here is some (very old) graph:

Cost of BGS, however, is not the cost of raw Aluminum (which I guess is of the order of $10, if that), but design installation and maintenance. If we could replace those signs with programmable transmitters sending signal to (mandatory) equipment in vehicles (and that doesn't look impossible) - signs quickly become unneeded cost.  We had a thread on call boxes along highways - and I think this may be similar at some point. That was the idea behind my post..  How many issues are there with all that... A lot. But we're just talking, not writing legislation 
As for signs as source of Aluminum.. I bet there is more Al sitting around in coke cans than in traffic signs....

[hbelkins]

"West Virginia governor demands Virginia start construction of missing link of Corridor H/US 48"

"Supreme Court Agrees to Hear Appeal Regarding Clearview"

Meeker family's suit challenging FHWA's rejection of their father's font in 2015 appears headed for final resolution

Realistically, I don't think that there's much of a chance at Clearview ending up the subject of a court case. You can't sue anyone for not buying your product. Any other legal questions would probably be covered by the precedent of South Dakota v. Dole.

I had to Google that court case because I didn't know it was the one that allowed the feds to skirt the Tenth Amendment and usurp authority generally given to individual states. But at any rate, neither that, nor forcing anyone to buy the font, would be the basis for any court case. That issue would be the removal of Clearview's inclusion in the MUTCD.

[Scott5114]

Clearview was never in the MUTCD, unless you're suggesting that it will be added and then backed out between now and 2064.

[hbelkins]

Clearview was never in the MUTCD, unless you're suggesting that it will be added and then backed out between now and 2064.

Was the interim approval never mentioned in the MUTCD? Or is the FHWA font mandated in the MUTCD?

In any case, I think we're discussing semantics here. Clearview had FHWA blessing, and that blessing was removed. That's what any litigation would be based on.

[US 89]

I've had this exact same thought. If we ever do teleport in the future, we will lose an entire aspect of our lives, and the phrase "getting there is half the fun"  will have no meaning.

I would think at that point, the novelty our niche would occupy would come not from the journey, but from discovering little-known destinations in between the better-known ones.

I would argue it already does even today.

[formulanone]

Any Experiences With AirLyft for Living in an Autonomous Vehicle?

[MNHighwayMan]

Cost of BGS, however, is not the cost of raw Aluminum (which I guess is of the order of $10, if that), but design installation and maintenance. If we could replace those signs with programmable transmitters sending signal to (mandatory) equipment in vehicles (and that doesn't look impossible) - signs quickly become unneeded cost.  We had a thread on call boxes along highways - and I think this may be similar at some point. That was the idea behind my post..  How many issues are there with all that... A lot. But we're just talking, not writing legislation 
As for signs as source of Aluminum.. I bet there is more Al sitting around in coke cans than in traffic signs....

I would never want electronic-only signage, for in the event if power goes out, and especially for protracted periods of time.

[Scott5114]

Clearview was never in the MUTCD, unless you're suggesting that it will be added and then backed out between now and 2064.

Was the interim approval never mentioned in the MUTCD? Or is the FHWA font mandated in the MUTCD?

No, FHWA Series is the only typeface that has ever appeared in the MUTCD. The Interim Approval was basically a document saying "We agree to allow you to ignore the typeface section of the MUTCD and substitute Clearview so we can collect more data on its use."

A lawsuit could theoretically be brought against the revocation of the IA, but there is no law prohibiting FHWA from revoking any IA for any reason.  In fact, the purpose of the IA arrangement is specifically to allow FHWA to revoke the IA where necessary–for example, if a pedestrian signal were trialled that caused a spike in accidents, it would obviously be in everyone's best interest for FHWA to terminate the IA.

[jakeroot]

A lawsuit could theoretically be brought against the revocation of the IA, but there is no law prohibiting FHWA from revoking any IA for any reason.  In fact, the purpose of the IA arrangement is specifically to allow FHWA to revoke the IA where necessary–for example, if a pedestrian signal were trialled that caused a spike in accidents, it would obviously be in everyone's best interest for FHWA to terminate the IA.

But did Clearview cause a spike in collisions? I don't think there's anyway to prove that it did (or didn't). Setting that aside, tens of millions of dollars were invested in Clearview. Combining that with the sudden revocation, based on (what some consider to be) insubstantial evidence, and there's definitely a case for a lawsuit.

Someone will need to confirm this, but I believe the FHWA can only institute or revoke IA's based on studies/reasoning (otherwise, what's the point of the IA?). I suspect that lawsuits will be based on, what some agencies consider to be, poor reasoning by the FHWA.

[Scott5114]

FHWA did institute and revoke the Clearview IA based on studies, though. Their studies showed that Clearview did not have an improvement over the FHWA Series fonts to justify the continuation of the IA. This is not the first time that they've done this, just the most visible because there is a corporate interest involved who wants to gin up controversy about it.

[jakeroot]

FHWA did institute and revoke the Clearview IA based on studies, though. Their studies showed that Clearview did not have an improvement over the FHWA Series fonts to justify the continuation of the IA. This is not the first time that they've done this, just the most visible because there is a corporate interest involved who wants to gin up controversy about it.

Evidently, the "interests" feel that those the studies were insubstantial, hence [potential?] lawsuits.

[Scott5114]

More likely is that the interests feel like they'd like to keep their cash cow alive.

[kalvado]

Cost of BGS, however, is not the cost of raw Aluminum (which I guess is of the order of $10, if that), but design installation and maintenance. If we could replace those signs with programmable transmitters sending signal to (mandatory) equipment in vehicles (and that doesn't look impossible) - signs quickly become unneeded cost.  We had a thread on call boxes along highways - and I think this may be similar at some point. That was the idea behind my post..  How many issues are there with all that... A lot. But we're just talking, not writing legislation 
As for signs as source of Aluminum.. I bet there is more Al sitting around in coke cans than in traffic signs....

I would never want electronic-only signage, for in the event if power goes out, and especially for protracted periods of time.

Yes, and definitely it is a good thing that no traffic light requires any electricity these days!

[MNHighwayMan]

A traffic light is a whole different animal than certain types of signage. If a traffic light goes out, you just treat it like a stop sign. If electronic guide signage were to go out, without a physical standby, you might not have any idea where you're going and that can lead to accidents.

[kalvado]

A traffic light is a whole different animal than certain types of signage. If a traffic light goes out, you just treat it like a stop sign. If electronic guide signage were to go out, without a physical standby, you might not have any idea where you're going and that can lead to accidents.

Actually navigation system should take care of that, with transmitters being a backup system only anyway

[vdeane]

Are you proposing to make GPS mandatory?

[kphoger]

Are you proposing to make GPS mandatory?

I assume he meant that sat-nav will be included in an ever-increasing population of the cars on the road.

[kalvado]

Are you proposing to make GPS mandatory?

You want me to construct a full ecosystem of the road 50 years from now?  I give up right away! I can do a patchwork of ideas at most...
Wireless communication instead of physical signs is a can of worms, no question about that. Mandatory HUD equipment in each car? Or mandatory automatic drivers?  Both undermine concept of legacy cars which exist today - and declaring those non-roadworthy will be difficult. 
GPS - or other location equipment - may become required as part of mileage tax system. Will that be implemented? Who knows. As a combo of  taxation system, navigation system and sign reading system, such thing would have a better chance than any separate one.
If anything, I would expect long haul roads to be more prone to improvement - driverless long-haul trucks are probably matter of foreseeable future for commercial reasons. That puts money behind the idea...  And limiting access to highways to qualified vehicles is more realistic than any other roads - our NY doesn't allow bicycles on interstates, as far as I remember. And I have hard time thinking anyone will put their beloved Ford-T on the interstate anyway...  Transition  will take time, go in stages.. but not totally unrealistic.
So if some flavor of electronic package becomes required part of highway travel - and then wireless-only signs are more reasonable thing. Somewhat similar to how airbags and catalytic converters became mandatory to install. Legacy vehicles, of course, will be a problem...
[/daydreaming]

[jakeroot]

A traffic light is a whole different animal than certain types of signage. If a traffic light goes out, you just treat it like a stop sign. If electronic guide signage were to go out, without a physical standby, you might not have any idea where you're going and that can lead to accidents.

You could have a sign with a battery backup. Not sure how long it would last, though.

[MNHighwayMan]

A traffic light is a whole different animal than certain types of signage. If a traffic light goes out, you just treat it like a stop sign. If electronic guide signage were to go out, without a physical standby, you might not have any idea where you're going and that can lead to accidents.

You could have a sign with a battery backup. Not sure how long it would last, though.

That's true, and with improvements in radio/battery technology I can imagine batteries lasting long enough, barring any sort of extreme disaster. However, I think, more than electronic signs, we're going to see cars using cameras which are able to correctly read and interpret physical signs. Optical character recognition is already a thing and it works quite well.

[hotdogPi]

A traffic light is a whole different animal than certain types of signage. If a traffic light goes out, you just treat it like a stop sign. If electronic guide signage were to go out, without a physical standby, you might not have any idea where you're going and that can lead to accidents.

You could have a sign with a battery backup. Not sure how long it would last, though.

That's true, and with improvements in LED technology I can imagine batteries lasting long enough, barring any sort of extreme disaster. However, I think, more than electronic signs, we're going to see cars using cameras which are able to correctly read and interpret physical signs. Optical character recognition is already a thing and it works quite well.

Reasons why a sign might not be able to be read, in no particular order:

1. Blocked by leaves
2. Blocked by a large truck (either above or to the side)
3. Knocked down and not replaced
4. Covered in snow
5. Facing the wrong direction (usually as a result of being hit or in a weird-angle intersection)
6. Too faded
7. Vandalized (e.g. speed limit 155, which I have actually seen, but has been fixed)

[MNHighwayMan]

Reasons why a sign might not be able to be read, in no particular order:

1. Blocked by leaves
2. Blocked by a large truck (either above or to the side)
3. Knocked down and not replaced
4. Covered in snow
5. Facing the wrong direction (usually as a result of being hit or in a weird-angle intersection)
6. Too faded
7. Vandalized (e.g. speed limit 155, which I have actually seen, but has been fixed)

All of those things, with exception to the last one, affect human drivers too, though.