New York

[vdeane]

Linear speed limits are what most people think of with speed limits: a limit for a given section of road from one point to another.  They require periodic signs so that people know what the limit is and those signs simply say "speed limit XX".  Area speed limits apply to all roads in a given area (typically but not always a political jurisdiction) and only need to be signed at the edges.  This is where "city speed limit 30", "village speed limit 35", "state speed limit 55", etc. come in.  The "end XX limit" sign denotes that you're leaving one limit and the limit for the area you're in applies... typically, this is the statewide default of 55, but it doesn't have to be.

Area speed limits seem problematic to me. They have to be signed so that we can't miss them. If you come into a town that has a 25 area speed limit on a road that has a 35 speed limit, do they put up two signs saying "TOWN SPEED LIMIT 25" and "SPEED LIMIT 35"? I don't think I've ever seen that.

And it makes even less sense for states to do this. Indeed, the only STATE SPEED LIMIT sign I ever recall seeing was STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 coming into NY from MA on a rural road that had a 55 speed limit. Transitioning from the Mass Pike to the NY Thruway there's only a SPEED LIMIT 65 sign.

This kinda sorta works for towns because they don't enclose any smaller areas that have their own default speed limits. And I've seen signs that don't look like regular speed limit signs, saying that the default speed limits in residential street grids is 25. But if a state has an area speed limit of 55, you don't just enter the state by crossing a state line, you also enter the state jurisdiction whenever you leave a town. Hence the END SPEED LIMIT signs. But if a sign is going to be put up, it makes no sense for it to say what the speed limit was before you passed it, it should always say what the speed limit is after you pass it.

I suppose the ultimate motivation for area speed limits is cost. Posting the speed on every residential street may seem onerous, but posting the speed on rural roads every mile or so? Putting up and maintaining signs cost mere pocket change compared to building and maintaining the road itself. Even in residential areas, they put up parking restriction signs every thirty feet or so. So what's the real need for "area speed limits"?

Typically the way that would be handled is for all roads intersecting the road with the linear speed limit to have "city/town/village/area speed limit xx" signs where they leave that road.  In practice, it doesn't come up as often as you'd think, because traditionally all roads drop when entering city or village areas (case in point, US 9W entering Albany; it's 45 mph in Bethlehem and drops to 30 at the city line even though the roadway geometry is unchanged).  It does sometimes happen with town speed limits, however.  And then there are signs that actually say "area speed limit", usually for a neighborhood or where a village used to be.

That said, this confusion is why the "end xx limit" signs are becoming less common over time.  When I was growing up, I remember seeing stuff like "end 40 mph limit" followed by "state speed limit 55" a tenth of a mile later, but these days, it's usually just "state speed limit 55".

Yeah, reassurance speed limit signs are rare in NY outside of linear speed limits.  I've had a few times driving on a two-lane road where I'd start to wonder if the limit really was still 45 because hadn't seen a sign in a really long time, only to get to the next town and find out that it wasn't, just that the "state speed limit 55" sign at the end of the 45 zone was missing.  And municipalities were indeed complaining that signing streets pervasively would be too costly when they were clamoring for the authority to set area speed limits of 25.

And it makes even less sense for states to do this. Indeed, the only STATE SPEED LIMIT sign I ever recall seeing was STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 coming into NY from MA on a rural road that had a 55 speed limit.

In my experience, almost all SL 55 signs in New York include "STATE" at the top.  It is rare to have a generic "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign without the "STATE" above it.

In fact, signing a speed limit that matches the current area limit as just "speed limit xx" is against the NYS supplement to the MUTCD:

Where a linear speed limit within an area speed limit has the same numerical value as the area speed limit (a situation which can exist because of legal requirements), the appropriate area Speed Limit sign (NYR2-3 through NYR2-6) shall be substituted for the R2-1 sign in posting the linear limit.

Continue following NYS Supplement and TSMI 17-05, except in regard to speed studies.
NYSDOT will continue to always conduct an engineering study when setting speed limits, but other entities with speed limit authority may establish statutory speed limits with no engineering study. OTSM will issue revised guidance on speed limits before the end of the year.

[pderocco]

And it makes even less sense for states to do this. Indeed, the only STATE SPEED LIMIT sign I ever recall seeing was STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 coming into NY from MA on a rural road that had a 55 speed limit.

In my experience, almost all SL 55 signs in New York include "STATE" at the top.  It is rare to have a generic "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign without the "STATE" above it.

Quite possibly. I haven't driven around New York rural roads in several years. But if 55 is the "area speed limit" for New York, then putting up STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 signs everywhere would seem to defeat the purpose of having an area speed limit.

[webny99]

But if 55 is the "area speed limit" for New York, then putting up STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 signs everywhere would seem to defeat the purpose of having an area speed limit.

Except that there's no such thing as a 55 mph area speed limit in NY, since it's already the statewide limit. The highest area speed limit I think I've ever seen is 40 mph, and even that is rare. Almost all area speed limits are 25, 30, or 35 mph.

[vdeane]

And it makes even less sense for states to do this. Indeed, the only STATE SPEED LIMIT sign I ever recall seeing was STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 coming into NY from MA on a rural road that had a 55 speed limit.

In my experience, almost all SL 55 signs in New York include "STATE" at the top.  It is rare to have a generic "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign without the "STATE" above it.

Quite possibly. I haven't driven around New York rural roads in several years. But if 55 is the "area speed limit" for New York, then putting up STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 signs everywhere would seem to defeat the purpose of having an area speed limit.

They're not "putting them up everywhere", though, especially on 2 lane roads.  The point of area/the state speed limit is that the signs DON'T have to be posted everywhere.  In rural areas where everything is 55, you generally won't see speed limit signs at all.  Same thing for cities where everything is 30 (although I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more signs as the 25 mph are implemented in cities that are doing that).  Sure, there are sometimes reminders, but not as frequently as you'd see for linear speed limits (outside of freeways).

But if 55 is the "area speed limit" for New York, then putting up STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 signs everywhere would seem to defeat the purpose of having an area speed limit.

Except that there's no such thing as a 55 mph area speed limit in NY, since it's already the statewide limit. The highest area speed limit I think I've ever seen is 40 mph, and even that is rare. Almost all area speed limits are 25, 30, or 35 mph.

The state speed limit is essentially a type of area speed limit; area speed limits are "unless otherwise posted".

[Rothman]

It's also common just to see an "END XX MPH SPEED LIMIT" sign at municipality borders which means the speed limit is back up to 55.

[webny99]

It's also common just to see an "END XX MPH SPEED LIMIT" sign at municipality borders which means the speed limit is back up to 55.

We've come full circle: those signs are what started this discussion (reply #7218) 

[crispy93]

Linear speed limits are what most people think of with speed limits: a limit for a given section of road from one point to another.  They require periodic signs so that people know what the limit is and those signs simply say "speed limit XX".  Area speed limits apply to all roads in a given area (typically but not always a political jurisdiction) and only need to be signed at the edges.  This is where "city speed limit 30", "village speed limit 35", "state speed limit 55", etc. come in.  The "end XX limit" sign denotes that you're leaving one limit and the limit for the area you're in applies... typically, this is the statewide default of 55, but it doesn't have to be.

Area speed limits seem problematic to me. They have to be signed so that we can't miss them. If you come into a town that has a 25 area speed limit on a road that has a 35 speed limit, do they put up two signs saying "TOWN SPEED LIMIT 25" and "SPEED LIMIT 35"? I don't think I've ever seen that.

Someone explained the official way to do this above, but all freeways entering NYC still get the City Speed Limit 25 sign. Here's an example on the Hutch, which is 50 mph: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4DUjVmK9unz5iviGA

This kinda sorta works for towns because they don't enclose any smaller areas that have their own default speed limits. And I've seen signs that don't look like regular speed limit signs, saying that the default speed limits in residential street grids is 25.

Like one of these beauties? https://maps.app.goo.gl/LvhcN9rXMB9VVUqG8

But if a sign is going to be put up, it makes no sense for it to say what the speed limit was before you passed it, it should always say what the speed limit is after you pass it.

Totally agree.

Another problem with area speed limits that I noticed, is that local agencies like to reuse their TOWN SPEED LIMIT/VILLAGE SPEED LIMIT for any linear speed limit within the area, thereby completely defeating the point. Here's a great view showing TOWN SPEED LIMIT 30 (correct) and TOWN SPEED LIMIT 35 ("town" has since been whited out) at the same intersection https://maps.app.goo.gl/RHezM26MtUcazWd29

[Jim]

I've never understood this practice in New York.  How is it more useful to tell drivers what the speed limit used to be before you got to the sign rather than what it is becoming when you pass it?  I have never been able to come up with any upside to doing it this way.

[vdeane]

Another problem with area speed limits that I noticed, is that local agencies like to reuse their TOWN SPEED LIMIT/VILLAGE SPEED LIMIT for any linear speed limit within the area, thereby completely defeating the point. Here's a great view showing TOWN SPEED LIMIT 30 (correct) and TOWN SPEED LIMIT 35 ("town" has since been whited out) at the same intersection https://maps.app.goo.gl/RHezM26MtUcazWd29

It's even happened with "State Speed Limit 65".

[webny99]

I've never understood this practice in New York.  How is it more useful to tell drivers what the speed limit used to be before you got to the sign rather than what it is becoming when you pass it?  I have never been able to come up with any upside to doing it this way.

The one upside of having a default of 55 mph is that the state doesn't have to post speed limit signs on any roadway to which it applies. That's a significant reduction of sign production, installation, and replacement costs over time.

However, to your point, this would still be the case even if "State Speed Limit 55" was posted in place of every "End XX MPH Limit" sign. The only advantage of the latter I can think of is that it does set the blanket expectation that you should slow down if you see a speed limit sign, even if you can't read it yet. "State Speed Limit 55" doesn't do that (and wouldn't, even if it replaced "End XX MPH limit") because it's consistently reposted at regular intervals on freeways, expressways, and major state highways.

[Buffaboy]

Any US 219 news in the last 12-24 months or will there be a permanent stub in Cattaraugus County? You could make a case for extending it to Ellicottville at least.

[okc1]

Any US 219 news in the last 12-24 months or will there be a permanent stub in Cattaraugus County? You could make a case for extending it to Ellicottville at least.

The Springville Journal reported recently that a roundabout will replace the junction at Peters Road. So it appears no extension is coming soon.

[webny99]

Any US 219 news in the last 12-24 months or will there be a permanent stub in Cattaraugus County? You could make a case for extending it to Ellicottville at least.

The Springville Journal reported recently that a roundabout will replace the junction at Peters Road. So it appears no extension is coming soon.

Huh, I hadn't heard about that project. That should improve efficiency for southbound traffic exiting the 219 freeway and turning left.

But yes, unless the funding situation changes drastically, the freeway extension is pretty much dead at this point.

[kernals12]

Maps from the 1972 state transportation plan

[Rothman]

Pulled from where?

[kernals12]

Pulled from where?

Here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=ien.35556031348949&seq=1

[roadman65]

I noticed for years the lack of a steep hill sign on the US 6 East and PIP North downgrade into the Bear Mountain Circle.

I'm guessing it has to do with trucks not allowed on that particular roadways.  As the MUTCD signs are made mainly for truckers, I would figure cars should be warned as well.

I've driven that stretch plenty of times and always shifted down to avoid break riding as that grade is pretty steep even for a freeway.  It's also long and has sometimes at the bottom, the yield sign into the circle creating a queue as heavy traffic is using the circle.

So some king of warning needs to be placed even if the MUTCD doesn't require it being no trucks use the road.

[02 Park Ave]

I have no problem with that hill.  Whilst it is long it is not that steep.  Plus there are rumble strips as one approaches the circle.

[02 Park Ave]

Does the Bennington Bypass have a route number in New York State?

[Rothman]

Does the Bennington Bypass have a route number in New York State?

Heh.  Define "have."

Yes, it has one.  No, it is not shielded.

[kernals12]

I have no problem with that hill.  Whilst it is long it is not that steep.  Plus there are rumble strips as one approaches the circle.

Are you really going to die on this hill?

[vdeane]

Does the Bennington Bypass have a route number in New York State?

Does reference route 915G count?

[02 Park Ave]

Why doesn't the NYS sector of the Bennington Bypass bear the number 279 as does the Vermont sector?  Is there already a route 279 in New York?

[Rothman]

Why doesn't the NYS sector of the Bennington Bypass bear the number 279 as does the Vermont sector?  Is there already a route 279 in New York?

Yes.

(Google is your friend, too)

[vdeane]

Why doesn't the NYS sector of the Bennington Bypass bear the number 279 as does the Vermont sector?  Is there already a route 279 in New York?

There is, over in Orleans County.  Most of it isn't state maintained, and none of it is federal aid eligible, so decommissioning probably wouldn't be hard, but there's little need since reference route 915G is short and doesn't intersect anything between NY 7 and the state line.  Heck, NY 495 is similar (and longer) and isn't signed at all!