New York

[machias]

The meat of all that is the significant changes spreadsheet.  Looks like our sexy guide signs with the offset exit tabs are going away.

indeed. Is there any other state that does this? Growing up, I always thought it was the "right" way to sign an exit, and hated what other states had.

South Carolina has been doing the inset exit numbers with squared off tabs, which always looked odd to me.

[vdeane]

The meat of all that is the significant changes spreadsheet.  Looks like our sexy guide signs with the offset exit tabs are going away.

indeed. Is there any other state that does this? Growing up, I always thought it was the "right" way to sign an exit, and hated what other states had.

South Carolina has been doing the inset exit numbers with squared off tabs, which always looked odd to me.

Maybe because they use extruded signs and often use Clearview?  That would make the tab close enough to give an uncanny valley vibe.

[webny99]

Sharing part of this post from another thread with some more information about the incident:

A major incident just south of Exit 7 had things backed up to NY 104 by 7:15, which is typically pre-morning rush around here, and there's already a 50-minute delay before we even get to the peak of rush hour. That's not to mention the local roads: Winton is backed up over the NY 590 overpass which I don't believe I've ever seen in my life, and Blossom Rd is backed up to Landing Rd, threatening to back right down into the valley. Creek St is also backed up for about a mile approaching Browncroft. So far, things look a bit more manageable further north, with no visible impacts on Bay Rd, and Culver Rd looking notably slow but not overwhelmingly so.

https://13wham.com/news/local/police-motorcycle-strikes-hits-trooper-at-590-crash-scene-brighton-before-crashing-at-city-of-rochester-intersection-chase-pursuit

[vdeane]

NYSDOT Commissioner Marie Therese Dominguez and Region 1 Planning and Program Manager Greg Wichser recently gave an interview about the I-787 project.

https://capitolpressroom.org/2024/11/22/state-reckons-with-future-of-highway-in-downtown-albany/

For reference, the I-787 concepts: https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2024/10/reimagine-i-787-concept-renderings_0.pdf

[The Ghostbuster]

I hope they choose one of the alternatives that maintains the existing freeway. I'm not sure converting it to a boulevard would be an improvement over the existing highway.

[Plutonic Panda]

Hopefully, they keep the existing freeway. New York City needs more freeways not less, but maintaining the existing ones needs to be a priority. They can do this all the while, expanding their mass transit system and creating an orbital transit system, which is what they need to do.

[kalvado]

Hopefully, they keep the existing freeway. New York City needs more freeways not less, but maintaining the existing ones needs to be a priority. They can do this all the while, expanding their mass transit system and creating an orbital transit system, which is what they need to do.

Albany NY is 3 hr drive from NYC. Jus'saying

[Rothman]

Hopefully, they keep the existing freeway. New York City needs more freeways not less, but maintaining the existing ones needs to be a priority. They can do this all the while, expanding their mass transit system and creating an orbital transit system, which is what they need to do.

Albany NY is 3 hr drive from NYC. Jus'saying

When one's stance is too general to consider the local situation, we end up with this kind of thing.

That said, I'm not too sure about this getting-rid-of-I-787, thing.  It's hard enough to travel north-south in the Capital District.  I might be persuaded to accept I-787 going away if Albany would finally move its fireworks out of Empire State Plaza and onto the waterfront.  Totally asinine to keep them in that cramped space.

[cl94]

The biggest problem with removing 787 is the lack of real N-S alternatives in the area. Your alternatives are Lark/Delaware (9W), 85, and the Northway (87) west of the river. I'll also note that current traffic volumes meet the warrants for a 6-lane freeway.

Granted, any of this is probably DOA if brought to the feds in the next 4 years, and depending on what happens with the midterms, it may be DOA before then. People are trying too hard to make 787 a racial equity issue when, of all the urban freeways in this country, few had less impact than 787 on the surrounding communities during construction. All about half a mile was in an old railyard or on landfill, and that half mile is not what is being proposed to get removed. The Hudson River was an open sewer in the 1960s, and honestly, you still don't want to be near it on a hot summer day or after a heavy rain, because you will smell it. Spending political capital on 787 will reduce the capital for stuff that would do more than benefit developers.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[kalvado]

The biggest problem with removing 787 is the lack of real N-S alternatives in the area. Your alternatives are Lark/Delaware (9W), 85, and the Northway (87) west of the river. I'll also note that current traffic volumes meet the warrants for a 6-lane freeway.

Granted, any of this is probably DOA if brought to the feds in the next 4 years, and depending on what happens with the midterms, it may be DOA before then. People are trying too hard to make 787 a racial equity issue when, of all the urban freeways in this country, few had less impact than 787 on the surrounding communities during construction. All about half a mile was in an old railyard or on landfill, and that half mile is not what is being proposed to get removed. The Hudson River was an open sewer in the 1960s, and honestly, you still don't want to be near it on a hot summer day or after a heavy rain, because you will smell it. Spending political capital on 787 will reduce the capital for stuff that would do more than benefit developers.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I am not even sure about "benefit developers" part.
From my perspective, I-787 would be better if not touched in near future - until elevated structure is due for another round of maintenance. Looks like it's in better shape that I-81, so another decade should not be a problem (as if anything can be done before that anyway)

[Rothman]

I don't see the change in federal administration affecting plans to remove limited access highways from urban areas.  As long as NYSDOT is not expecting special or additional apportionment to fund the project -- and I don't believe it is -- it can move forward.

Even I-81 has been moving forward within the confines of regular federal apportionments, with any grant money coming in as a "bonus" rather than necessary.

[SGwithADD]

The meat of all that is the significant changes spreadsheet.  Looks like our sexy guide signs with the offset exit tabs are going away.

indeed. Is there any other state that does this? Growing up, I always thought it was the "right" way to sign an exit, and hated what other states had.

South Carolina has been doing the inset exit numbers with squared off tabs, which always looked odd to me.

Maybe because they use extruded signs and often use Clearview?  That would make the tab close enough to give an uncanny valley vibe.

I was just going to use the uncanny valley term myself for SC's version

At this point, I think I agree with webny99 - of the existing aligned tab options, Region 10's extra radius exit tabs look best to me. That said, given how inconsistent exit tab corners seem to be, I'm just going to assume these will all look rather janky.

[vdeane]

Am I the only person who doesn't like Region 10's extra rounded tabs?

[storm2k]

Am I the only person who doesn't like Region 10's extra rounded tabs?

Reminds me of NCDOT signage, but I do appreciate that they do more signage with the tabs right aligned with the bigger sign and not on the end of round-rect curve, which I have never liked.

[vdeane]

The exit 31 PEL study recently had a public meeting and the presentation boards are online.  While there isn't much in the way of specific recommendations yet, from what was presented, I think the study recommendations will ultimately be more modest than what the roadgeek community was proposing.

https://exit31pelstudy.org/get-involved

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/65f817c177b9d92c38eeb0b1/t/674f85bd532ea52b2b149fb5/1733264858315/12.3.24+Boards+FINAL.pdf

[The Ghostbuster]

The only thing I can think of is to provide a direct connection between Interstate 90 westbound and Interstate 790 westbound.

[Rothman]

Stupid project's going to get distracted by people wanting to dump even more millions into the stupid arterial (after NYSDOT has already dumped millions into it) rather than focusing on improving the connections at Exit 31.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[webny99]

It's good to see that access to NY 49 has been noted as a problem with the existing setup. I sure hope that leads into expanding the study area and looking into connectivity options further west, because the existing study area is much too small (IMO).

[crispy93]

I've noticed a few "End XX MPH speed" signs in my area (Dutchess) being used incorrectly by non-state agencies. Here's the end of CR 21 at NY 22/55: https://maps.app.goo.gl/hr3jo8Hq1TEp3crG7. This cryptic sign (which I disklike) tells you the limit goes back to 55 mph. But NY 22 and NY 55 are both 40 mph.

Here's an example posted by the town of Fishkill, the cross-road (NY 82) is 40 mph: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RW4EKgtKyAH1Fp5j8

And a State Speed Limit 55 sign at the end of the road, probably used as a "cross traffic is fast" sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mWPE7aMe6N1Hggwp8

[vdeane]

I've noticed a few "End XX MPH speed" signs in my area (Dutchess) being used incorrectly by non-state agencies. Here's the end of CR 21 at NY 22/55: https://maps.app.goo.gl/hr3jo8Hq1TEp3crG7. This cryptic sign (which I disklike) tells you the limit goes back to 55 mph. But NY 22 and NY 55 are both 40 mph.

Here's an example posted by the town of Fishkill, the cross-road (NY 82) is 40 mph: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RW4EKgtKyAH1Fp5j8

And a State Speed Limit 55 sign at the end of the road, probably used as a "cross traffic is fast" sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mWPE7aMe6N1Hggwp8

Technically, they're not wrong.  It's just that most people don't know what the difference between linear and area speed limits are any more, if they ever did.  Linear speed limits are what most people think of with speed limits: a limit for a given section of road from one point to another.  They require periodic signs so that people know what the limit is and those signs simply say "speed limit XX".  Area speed limits apply to all roads in a given area (typically but not always a political jurisdiction) and only need to be signed at the edges.  This is where "city speed limit 30", "village speed limit 35", "state speed limit 55", etc. come in.  The "end XX limit" sign denotes that you're leaving one limit and the limit for the area you're in applies... typically, this is the statewide default of 55, but it doesn't have to be.

Area vs. linear speed limits have the additional wrinkle that, outside NYC, linear speed limits can't be set below 25 (except for school zones) and area limits can't be set below 30 (unless a municipality conducts a study and exempts the roads the state (not sure if this applies for county roads as well) has jurisdiction over (causing them to gain linear limits of 30 mph*), in which case it can be set to 25).  Around here, the Village of Colonie managed to set their limit to 25 prior to the law allowing it by setting a linear speed limit on every section of road, and the Town of East Greenbush did something similar to bypass the engineering study requirement.  Of course, this means a LOT more signs are needed, which is why most municipalities don't do it.

*Or presumably whatever the area limit was before, but for any municipality looking to drop it to 25, that's almost certainly going to be 30.

[webny99]

Area vs. linear speed limits have the additional wrinkle that, outside NYC, linear speed limits can't be set below 25 (except for school zones) and area limits can't be set below 30 (unless a municipality conducts a study and exempts the roads the state (not sure if this applies for county roads as well) has jurisdiction over (causing them to gain linear limits of 30 mph*), in which case it can be set to 25).  Around here, the Village of Colonie managed to set their limit to 25 prior to the law allowing it by setting a linear speed limit on every section of road, and the Town of East Greenbush did something similar to bypass the engineering study requirement.  Of course, this means a LOT more signs are needed, which is why most municipalities don't do it.

Interesting. I didn't know all this background, but this is clearly what happened on NY 444 in Victor. It's a typical village street, but posted at 25 mph instead of 30 mph, which is rather absurd coming off a 55 mph zone.

[vdeane]

Interesting. I didn't know all this background, but this is clearly what happened on NY 444 in Victor. It's a typical village street, but posted at 25 mph instead of 30 mph, which is rather absurd coming off a 55 mph zone.

Interesting... out here, they'd be exempting it from the change and claim that they can't apply the change to NYSDOT roads.  I wonder if that's at the discretion of the NYSDOT region.

[Rothman]

All it takes is one rogue RTE...

(personal opinion emphasized)

[pderocco]

Linear speed limits are what most people think of with speed limits: a limit for a given section of road from one point to another.  They require periodic signs so that people know what the limit is and those signs simply say "speed limit XX".  Area speed limits apply to all roads in a given area (typically but not always a political jurisdiction) and only need to be signed at the edges.  This is where "city speed limit 30", "village speed limit 35", "state speed limit 55", etc. come in.  The "end XX limit" sign denotes that you're leaving one limit and the limit for the area you're in applies... typically, this is the statewide default of 55, but it doesn't have to be.

Area speed limits seem problematic to me. They have to be signed so that we can't miss them. If you come into a town that has a 25 area speed limit on a road that has a 35 speed limit, do they put up two signs saying "TOWN SPEED LIMIT 25" and "SPEED LIMIT 35"? I don't think I've ever seen that.

And it makes even less sense for states to do this. Indeed, the only STATE SPEED LIMIT sign I ever recall seeing was STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 coming into NY from MA on a rural road that had a 55 speed limit. Transitioning from the Mass Pike to the NY Thruway there's only a SPEED LIMIT 65 sign.

This kinda sorta works for towns because they don't enclose any smaller areas that have their own default speed limits. And I've seen signs that don't look like regular speed limit signs, saying that the default speed limits in residential street grids is 25. But if a state has an area speed limit of 55, you don't just enter the state by crossing a state line, you also enter the state jurisdiction whenever you leave a town. Hence the END SPEED LIMIT signs. But if a sign is going to be put up, it makes no sense for it to say what the speed limit was before you passed it, it should always say what the speed limit is after you pass it.

I suppose the ultimate motivation for area speed limits is cost. Posting the speed on every residential street may seem onerous, but posting the speed on rural roads every mile or so? Putting up and maintaining signs cost mere pocket change compared to building and maintaining the road itself. Even in residential areas, they put up parking restriction signs every thirty feet or so. So what's the real need for "area speed limits"?

[froggie]

And it makes even less sense for states to do this. Indeed, the only STATE SPEED LIMIT sign I ever recall seeing was STATE SPEED LIMIT 55 coming into NY from MA on a rural road that had a 55 speed limit.

In my experience, almost all SL 55 signs in New York include "STATE" at the top.  It is rare to have a generic "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign without the "STATE" above it.