Special (non-standard-English) characters on placename signs

[froggie]

http://www.startribune.com/local/299457931.html

Lindström, MN is trying to get back the umlauts on its highway placename signs on US 8.  MnDOT has basically said "no", citing that punctuation marks are not part of the Standard Alphabets for Traffic Control Devices.

I know from my own German experience that ö ≠ o.

Is this something that could (should?) be changed in future MUTCD/Standard Alphabet updates?

[SSOWorld]

All that from a DOT that does not follow other aspects of the MUTCD - such as missing EXIT ONLY banners on BGSs in Rochester...

Double Standards FTL

[KEK Inc.]

[corco]

Their own website only inconsistently uses the umlats http://www.lindstrom.mn.org/, so whatever.

That said, who cares? If they want them, let them have them.

[CtrlAltDel]

Here's a BGS with musical notation on it (I-75 in Florida):

[Road Hog]

In translating umlauts from German to English, it's common convention to add an E after the umlauted vowel (i.e. ü = ue, ö = oe, etc.) You find that in German surnames a lot. Lindström is Scandinavian, though, so I don't know if that applies.

[kphoger]

Their own website only inconsistently uses the umlats http://www.lindstrom.mn.org/, so whatever.

That said, who cares? If they want them, let them have them.

Someone should guerrilla-sign the umlauts. FWIW, the convention in Swedish for usage when the umlaut is unavailable for use is to simply leave off the umlaut. So, in German, ö -> oe; but, in Swedish, ö -> o.

[bzakharin]

Here's a BGS with musical notation on it (I-75 in Florida):

I wonder what the context of this is. The musical notation seems real enough. Are you supposed to sing "Historic Suwanee River" to those? It kind of works, but what's the point? Or is it really a pronunciation aide (HIStoric suwaNEE RI-i-VEhhhR)?

[J N Winkler]

Lindström, MN is trying to get back the umlauts on its highway placename signs on US 8.  MnDOT has basically said "no", citing that punctuation marks are not part of the Standard Alphabets for Traffic Control Devices.

I know from my own German experience that ö ≠ o.

Is this something that could (should?) be changed in future MUTCD/Standard Alphabet updates?

Could--yes.  In Québec, MTQ has a standard that any diacritics not available in the vanilla FHWA alphabet series come from Univers.  In Britain, special characters have been added to the Transport alphabets by statutory instrument specifically to accommodate Welsh.  Either workaround could be added to the MUTCD through the rulemaking process.

Should--yes.  I would do it not just to accommodate names that come from other languages, but also to ensure that accented characters are of uniform shape and easy to read.  I don't like, for example, the usual approach of using a curved tilde for ñ and Ã' for placenames in California and New Mexico that have these characters.  In jurisdictions where they are actually part of the native language, such as Spain and Mexico, the tilde is rendered on signs as a straight bar, which is less visually obtrusive and easier to read.

[NE2]

I wonder what the context of this is. The musical notation seems real enough. Are you supposed to sing "Historic Suwanee River" to those? It kind of works, but what's the point? Or is it really a pronunciation aide (HIStoric suwaNEE RI-i-VEhhhR)?

It's the state song (appropriately enough named Old Folks at Home).

[CtrlAltDel]

I wonder what the context of this is. The musical notation seems real enough. Are you supposed to sing "Historic Suwanee River" to those? It kind of works, but what's the point? Or is it really a pronunciation aide (HIStoric suwaNEE RI-i-VEhhhR)?

It's the state song (appropriately enough named Old Folks at Home).

The music on the sign is for the introduction part of the song, which, if I'm not mistaken, is before the words start.

[GaryV]

I wonder what the context of this is. The musical notation seems real enough. Are you supposed to sing "Historic Suwanee River" to those? It kind of works, but what's the point? Or is it really a pronunciation aide (HIStoric suwaNEE RI-i-VEhhhR)?

It's the state song (appropriately enough named Old Folks at Home).

The music on the sign is for the introduction part of the song, which, if I'm not mistaken, is before the words start.

It's the correct notation for the opening line:  "Waaaay down up-on the Suwa-NEEEE Riv-ER"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Folks_at_Home

[froggie]

I should note that I was in error earlier...this has to do with the standard signs alphabet, not the MUTCD.  Also, the Governor signed an executive order yesterday that dictates the umlauts should go back up.

As for Scott's complaint, show me a state DOT that has *zero* MUTCD errors and I will agree with the complaint.  Nobody's perfect.  And I would argue that, overall, Minnesota follows the MUTCD far better than most other states, especially when it comes to county/local signage.

[Bruce]

Street signs in Seattle's International District/Chinatown neighborhood have been in English and Chinese since 2013.


Mayor ID Street Signs 06 by Mayor McGinn, on Flickr

[bzakharin]

Philadelphi's Chinatown has had these as long as I can remember

[mwb1848]

The last two generations of guide signs in El Paso have included accent marks in "Juárez, México". Old button copy signs though simply referred to it as "Juarez". No accents. No Mexico.

[Duke87]

Diacritical marks do not officially exist in the English language, so it's understandable that agencies in the US have issues with handling them.

I do like the idea of having them there for sake of correctness, although I must admit seeing diacritics on FHWA font looks kind of weird due to the thick stroke.

[dfwmapper]

Some of the Doña Ana county line signs in New Mexico use the Ã'. https://goo.gl/cYJqyG

[kurumi]

Street signs in Seattle's International District/Chinatown neighborhood have been in English and Chinese since 2013.


Mayor ID Street Signs 06 by Mayor McGinn, on Flickr

If I lived there, I'd insist on calling it "South Number 6 Big Road" :-)

[national highway 1]

The last two generations of guide signs in El Paso have included accent marks in "Juárez, México". Old button copy signs though simply referred to it as "Juarez". No accents. No Mexico.

Didn't the older button copy signs in El Paso only showed US 54, while omitting any references to I-110 because it was unsigned?

[J N Winkler]

Didn't the older button copy signs in El Paso only showed US 54, while omitting any references to I-110 because it was unsigned?

Yup.  The current signs were installed in the latter part of TxDOT's reflective sheeting upgrade, which began around 1998 and wound down around 2005.  It was a major undertaking that I estimate is responsible for about 3000 of the sheets in my TxDOT sign panel detail and sign elevation sheet collection.

[mapman1071]

Street signs in Seattle's International District/Chinatown neighborhood have been in English and Chinese since 2013.


Mayor ID Street Signs 06 by Mayor McGinn, on Flickr

Chinatown San Fransisco and Chinatown Manhattan have English & Chinese Streetblades.

[hbelkins]

Plenty of street signs with Cherokee language names on the Cherokee reservation in North Carolina.

[Scott5114]

Plenty of street signs with Cherokee language names on the Cherokee reservation in North Carolina.

And in Tahlequah, Oklahoma, current headquarters of the Cherokee Nation. There are even some stop signs in Cherokee.

[SignGeek101]

What about Å"?

http://goo.gl/maps/N2Gyp

The first time I've ever seen that.