I-95 through the Meadowlands

[NJ]

^

Newest MUTCD allows maximum 2 control cities/street names per signage.

[roadman65]

That sucks because NJ always used 3 in many locations.  It created no issues or safety concern.  If they want to pick on signing practices get after the airports for signing 20 airlines (well maybe 10 to 15) on one panel on curvy airport ramps.

[ixnay]

That's dumb as NJ could sign Pittsburgh over Baltimore anytime even though the former is farther than the latter only because PA's border's extend far beyond Delaware's. 

If memory serves me old NJT signs did use New England at US 46 back in the 70's for the pull though sign going NB as a destination for the GWB.

And then there was this sign still hanging over all who come off NJ 495 WB in Oct. 2012 (has it been replaced?)...

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7791825,-74.0495224,3a,75y,289.71h,82.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJ_yCNnFzdF7FtuZkO2tF_w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DJ_yCNnFzdF7FtuZkO2tF_w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D69.586075%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

ixnay

Yuck that sign is ugly... It should be all capitalized state abbreviations (PA - MD etc)

Well, to me, that bottom line translates to, "America Awaits!"

ixnay

[vdeane]

The "no control cities from non-bordering states" thing is probably an internal NJDOT policy.

Albany may appear small, but the Capital District is a sizeable metro area in its own right (including traffic congestion that is arguably worse than Rochester, Buffalo, or Syracuse, which IMO are the "big three" of upstate NY), and Albany is right in the center of it.  Plus I love how all the signs tell me how to get home.  As for being the center of the state... Syracuse and Utica are much closer to the geographic center of the state than Albany!  The Capital District is a little odd though because instead of being a city surrounded by suburbs, it's a bunch of cities, villages, and "hamlets" with suburbs in between.

[KEVIN_224]

That's dumb as NJ could sign Pittsburgh over Baltimore anytime even though the former is farther than the latter only because PA's border's extend far beyond Delaware's. 

If memory serves me old NJT signs did use New England at US 46 back in the 70's for the pull though sign going NB as a destination for the GWB.

And then there was this sign still hanging over all who come off NJ 495 WB in Oct. 2012 (has it been replaced?)...

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7791825,-74.0495224,3a,75y,289.71h,82.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJ_yCNnFzdF7FtuZkO2tF_w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DJ_yCNnFzdF7FtuZkO2tF_w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D69.586075%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

ixnay

@ IXNAY: As of mid-day Friday, November 27, 2015, those two all-text beauties are STILL there! I was on NJ Route 495 and through the Lincoln Tunnel twice. First was coming from the north and GWB, with the second time heading south towards the NJ Turnpike and then towards Philadelphia.

[roadman65]

It can sometimes take months to install a gantry just like it does to get a simple traffic light put up!  I have seen gantries with new signs on them ready to go, then end up sitting there for several weeks before they install it.

Heck even the NB US 1 VMS at Ryders Lane in New Brunswick had it supports up for almost a year before NJDOT hired someone to install the actual board.  In fact I thought NJDOT was going to resign US 1 there to have freeway style overheads for its exits, and was extremely disappointed to find out they installed that at the time.  There it was just the supports and no gantry off to the side, so you would think its a sign upgrade and of course it being right at the exit for Ryders Lane NB.

[jeffandnicole]

Most likely it was part of a contract.  Once the winning bidder is selected, it's up to them to complete the contract.

[roadman65]

When it comes to the NJ Turnpike, does not the NJTA have their own people that work out of the sign shop in Hightstown to install it?

[Alps]

NJDOT told me that they can only include cities for the neighbor border states only. For example you cannot include any signage for Boston because MA does not border NJ. Not sure why they cannot do this. Once I emailed them to include Montreal below Albany but was told that Montreal/Canada does not border NJ.

I'd tell you anything I could that would make you stop submitting ideas as silly as signing Montreal from NJ. Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore
2. That is all.

Anything in CT is overshadowed by NYC. Baltimore is currently overshadowed by Wilmington. A lot of Del Mem Bridge traffic is going down the DE shore and never makes it to Baltimore, so it's even a little iffy to discuss that one.

[cl94]

NJDOT told me that they can only include cities for the neighbor border states only. For example you cannot include any signage for Boston because MA does not border NJ. Not sure why they cannot do this. Once I emailed them to include Montreal below Albany but was told that Montreal/Canada does not border NJ.

I'd tell you anything I could that would make you stop submitting ideas as silly as signing Montreal from NJ. Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore
2. That is all.

Anything in CT is overshadowed by NYC. Baltimore is currently overshadowed by Wilmington. A lot of Del Mem Bridge traffic is going down the DE shore and never makes it to Baltimore, so it's even a little iffy to discuss that one.

The only other one that might make any amount of sense is Youngstown, only because there is nothing along I-80 in Pennsylvania. ODOT signs New York east of the Ohio Turnpike, effectively doing the same thing in reverse. Almost every other freeway exit has a large city immediately across the border or is a straight shot to Baltimore or Albany.

[hbelkins]

Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore
2. That is all.

How about Youngstown for I-80? 

[jeffandnicole]

I'd sign Cleveland rather than Youngstown.

[cl94]

I'd do Youngstown mainly because it's a major decision point. I-80 traffic splits in Youngstown to either continue along I-80 or head along I-76 to Akron and Columbus. Traffic there splits pretty evenly.

[Pete from Boston]

Youngstown?  Seriously?

I will buy a beer for anyone that can demonstrate that more than 3 out of 10 drivers on Route 80 even know where Youngstown is.  Moreover, it's 320+ miles from New Jersey, which in the Northeast may as well be another continent.*

It makes Montréal look reasonable.

No Youngstown signs in New Jersey, please.

* No, this is not the same as signing New York in Ohio.  New York has over 8,000,000 people.  Youngstown has 65,000 and has averaged a population loss of over 16% a decade for five decades.  It has lost the largest portion of its people of any US city formerly over 100,000.

[The Nature Boy]

Youngstown?  Seriously?

I will buy a beer for anyone that can demonstrate that more than 3 out of 10 drivers on Route 80 even know where Youngstown is.  Moreover, it's 320+ miles from New Jersey, which in the Northeast may as well be another continent.*

It makes Montréal look reasonable.

No Youngstown signs in New Jersey, please.

* No, this is not the same as signing New York in Ohio.  New York has over 8,000,000 people.  Youngstown has 65,000 and has averaged a population loss of over 16% a decade for five decades.  It has lost the largest portion of its people of any US city formerly over 100,000.

I agree.

Control Cities are supposed to actually be helpful. Someone in Ohio obviously knows where New York City is, very few in New Jersey know what a Youngstown is.

If you must sign a long distance control city for I-80 in New Jersey then honestly Cleveland or Chicago make the most sense.

[jeffandnicole]

I'd do Youngstown mainly because it's a major decision point. I-80 traffic splits in Youngstown to either continue along I-80 or head along I-76 to Akron and Columbus. Traffic there splits pretty evenly.

By that token, Maryland should use New Castle, because that's the location in Delaware where traffic takes 95 towards Philly or 295 towards NJ.

[Duke87]

If "Delaware Water Gap" doesn't do it for ya, might as well use Stroudsburg. It's a place of some significance and it's a lot closer than Ohio.
I could see some sense in Cleveland showing up as the bottom line of a standalone distance sign, but not as a control point.

That said I can appreciate the logic in "Well if ODOT signs New York, why shouldn't NJDOT sign Youngstown" - ideally, control cities should be sequential and consistent, the westbound control city heading away from New York should match the place where New York becomes the control city eastbound.
But, I would instead conclude that ODOT is being overzealous in using New York as a control point. They should be using some place in PA. Of course, PennDOT is the opposite extreme here and uses all sorts of places of minimal consequence as control cities on I-80. Though I suppose ODOT could still play their game and use Sharon as an eastbound control city (since PennDOT uses it westbound).

[Pete from Boston]

Not all cities are equal nor should they be treated as such in control city guidelines.  I've been to New York.  New York was my friend.  Mr. Youngstown, you're no New York City.

And it makes sense to sign New York further away than it does Youngstown.  Same goes for Chicago, Los Angeles, etc.

[dgolub]

NJDOT told me that they can only include cities for the neighbor border states only. For example you cannot include any signage for Boston because MA does not border NJ. Not sure why they cannot do this. Once I emailed them to include Montreal below Albany but was told that Montreal/Canada does not border NJ.

I'd tell you anything I could that would make you stop submitting ideas as silly as signing Montreal from NJ. Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore
2. That is all.

Anything in CT is overshadowed by NYC. Baltimore is currently overshadowed by Wilmington. A lot of Del Mem Bridge traffic is going down the DE shore and never makes it to Baltimore, so it's even a little iffy to discuss that one.

How about Philadelphia?  It will make sense as a control city for I-95 at exit 6 of the turnpike.  Also, they already use Philadelphia as a control city for the free I-95 by Trenton.

[jeffandnicole]

NJDOT told me that they can only include cities for the neighbor border states only. For example you cannot include any signage for Boston because MA does not border NJ. Not sure why they cannot do this. Once I emailed them to include Montreal below Albany but was told that Montreal/Canada does not border NJ.

I'd tell you anything I could that would make you stop submitting ideas as silly as signing Montreal from NJ. Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore
2. That is all.

Anything in CT is overshadowed by NYC. Baltimore is currently overshadowed by Wilmington. A lot of Del Mem Bridge traffic is going down the DE shore and never makes it to Baltimore, so it's even a little iffy to discuss that one.

How about Philadelphia?  It will make sense as a control city for I-95 at exit 6 of the turnpike.  Also, they already use Philadelphia as a control city for the free I-95 by Trenton.

On the NJ Turnpike, "Philadelphia" is a destination name, not a control city. And it will be signed at Exit 6; it's currently greened out due to the lack of the connecting interchange for I-95.

On I-95 around Trenton, Philadelphia is a control city, because of its use on the pull-thru signs.

[roadman65]

If "Delaware Water Gap" doesn't do it for ya, might as well use Stroudsburg. It's a place of some significance and it's a lot closer than Ohio.
I could see some sense in Cleveland showing up as the bottom line of a standalone distance sign, but not as a control point.

That said I can appreciate the logic in "Well if ODOT signs New York, why shouldn't NJDOT sign Youngstown" - ideally, control cities should be sequential and consistent, the westbound control city heading away from New York should match the place where New York becomes the control city eastbound.
But, I would instead conclude that ODOT is being overzealous in using New York as a control point. They should be using some place in PA. Of course, PennDOT is the opposite extreme here and uses all sorts of places of minimal consequence as control cities on I-80. Though I suppose ODOT could still play their game and use Sharon as an eastbound control city (since PennDOT uses it westbound).

I disagree with that logic.  If a city is big enough, popular enough, or has enough significance world wide, it should be for hundreds of miles away.  However, if its a small regional place, it should only be used starting from a point like the last city like it.

In Florida we use Tampa on I-75 from the GA Border southward.  However north of Tampa going N Bound on I-75 we use three different places in the same part.   Its Ocala up until Ocala, then its Lake City from Ocala to Lake City, and then its Valdosta from Lake City into Georgia.  Signing Valdosta from Tampa would not be feasible considering you do have Ocala and Lake City in the middle of the two that also have regional importance.  However going southward to sign Lake City and Ocala is not good being that Tampa is within hours away and has more importance being one of our state's largest cities.

The NJ Turnpike is that way as its all NYC going N Bound and going S Bound its Trenton, Camden, and Delaware.  That is because Wilmington is not that important as NYC.

Signing Youngstown from Teaneck, NJ to west is the same.  Its not that famous and you have a lot of small cities in between that are more feasible to use.

[Pete from Boston]

NJDOT told me that they can only include cities for the neighbor border states only. For example you cannot include any signage for Boston because MA does not border NJ. Not sure why they cannot do this. Once I emailed them to include Montreal below Albany but was told that Montreal/Canada does not border NJ.

I'd tell you anything I could that would make you stop submitting ideas as silly as signing Montreal from NJ. Here is a list of cities in non-bordering states that makes sense to sign from NJ:
1. Baltimore
2. That is all.

Anything in CT is overshadowed by NYC. Baltimore is currently overshadowed by Wilmington. A lot of Del Mem Bridge traffic is going down the DE shore and never makes it to Baltimore, so it's even a little iffy to discuss that one.

How about Philadelphia?  It will make sense as a control city for I-95 at exit 6 of the turnpike.  Also, they already use Philadelphia as a control city for the free I-95 by Trenton.

Philadelphia might be great, but is not in a non-bordering state, which is the issue of the conversation you're responding to.

[The Nature Boy]

Maybe I overestimate the importance of Boston but I don't think it'd be a terrible control city for the GW Bridge.

[odditude]

Maybe I overestimate the importance of Boston but I don't think it'd be a terrible control city for the GW Bridge.

that'd be like putting DC as a control city for Del Mem Bridge - technically valid, but hardly ideal.

[bzakharin]

I don't understand the appeal of signing cities with major highway intersections, but otherwise little significance, as control points. How many travelers know or care where the intersection is? If the highway is so important, add the highway itself to the sign with a "TO" legend. As bad are destinations on either side of the state line. How many people are taking I-287 North to Mahwah or US-1 South to Morrisville? At least the Delaware Water Gap (the park, not the town) is a tourist destination, so that one might sort of be ok for I-80.