Elephant in the Room - Tolls in Wisconsin?

[peterj920]

I think tollways also hurt economic development for communities along the route.  It's easy to compare I-94 along the Tri State Tollway to I-94 between Pleasant Prairie.  The tollway has poorly built interchanges that either have missing ramps, or they penalize drivers with an extra toll for getting back on the tollway.  The Oasis Service Plazas hurt communities along the tollway because it keeps traffic from exiting.  Other than the Gurnee Exit, where is there an exit along the tollway that people stop at and spend their money?

After crossing into Wisconsin where the freeway is free, there is a lot more economic development and it's easy to get on and off without penalty.  There is the massive outlet mall at the first exit coming into the state.  Then Wis the Wis 50 interchange has a lot of development.  Just north of there at the Wis 142/County S interchange, Amazon built their huge distribution center. 

Can also see why Scaumburg had the growth that it has.  It is near the I-90 tollway, but building where I-290 and IL 53 are, a free freeway probably greatly influenced decisions to build that area up. 

[merrycilantro]

That definitely adds a new perspective for me, I've never given it that direction of thought before. And it makes sense too. The Lake Forest Oasis is just that...and nobody can frequent other businesses of Lake Forest because to do so would as you said punish the driver by making them pay to get back on the tollway.

I'd be interested to see a case study comparing cities (or villages) like Schaumburg, Gurnee and the like, and Pleasant Prairie, Kenosha, et. al. Of course, the real life stories of those residing in those areas are just as valuable. I mean there's Gurnee Mills, but then there's also the Prime Outlets in Pleasant Prairie and as you stated, the Amazon Distribution Center...I'm sure there's a reason they chose Kenosha and not a farther south Chicagoland suburb. Taxes and Politics can potentially be a factor but I can't imagine they'd be the ONLY factor(s).

A buddy of mine is a farmer in Montello, for those not familiar it's smack in the middle of WI along I-39. He was saying something about farm exemption and how it's been taken away from MN, and they're trying to take it from WI...which leads to the question, would tolling in Wisconsin increase the overall prices of everything since the added expense of tolls for trucking (should they use the tolls) would ultimately, I'd assume, be passed onto the consumer...and then we'd see cost of living in that KRM corridor (and potentially further) be increased even more, becoming comparable to the North Shore suburbs of Chicago at present?

[peterj920]

There's a lot of growth along I-94, and the investment to make it 8 lanes is already paying off and will continue to.  With IKEA building at the Drexel Ave Interchange, that is already paying huge dividends.  Gurnee is a destination exit with huge attractions, and people will pay tolls for that.  But other businesses along the tollway wouldn't be able to draw many people from the tollway because of the penalty for exiting and not allowing people to get back on at certain exits.  I remember growing up my family wanted to stop at Lambs Farm.  We never ended up stopping there because we couldn't get back on there to go north.  That has more to do with poor design than cost, but it shows how terribly the Tri State was built.  Other states don't penalize people exiting as much as Illinois does.

My point is freeways that remain free give a lot higher return on investment than tollways.  Tollways make it easy to get from one city to another but limit growth along the corridor.  A free freeway does the same, but opens up a lot more development opportunities along the entire corridor.  In turn, that provides more growth and a higher tax base with increased economic development. 

[SEWIGuy]

Here is a pretty good article that talks about economic development along toll roads.

http://urbanland.uli.org/infrastructure-transit/toll-roads-the-route-to-redevelopment/

Basically if you are in a location that is growing dramatically, and toll roads are the only way to provide access, the economic development will follow.

[merrycilantro]

@peterj920 - I know what you mean about Tri-State. I was just down there last week and there isn't a northbound 294 entrance to save your soul...I had to drive all the way up to Des Plaines to get back on, all because I missed an exit from 190 coming out of O'Hare.

@SEWIGuy - Very intriguing article!! So basically, tolling I-94 between the IL state line and say Milwaukee, because there is basically no other alternative (divided highway speaking...) that would take the driver to the desired destination, thus it may perhaps work?

[Joe The Dragon]

There's a lot of growth along I-94, and the investment to make it 8 lanes is already paying off and will continue to.  With IKEA building at the Drexel Ave Interchange, that is already paying huge dividends.  Gurnee is a destination exit with huge attractions, and people will pay tolls for that.  But other businesses along the tollway wouldn't be able to draw many people from the tollway because of the penalty for exiting and not allowing people to get back on at certain exits.  I remember growing up my family wanted to stop at Lambs Farm.  We never ended up stopping there because we couldn't get back on there to go north.  That has more to do with poor design than cost, but it shows how terribly the Tri State was built.  Other states don't penalize people exiting as much as Illinois does.

Not poor design but the old toll road system (at least it's better then the other ticket toll roads build around the same time frame).

Now with ETC they need to add more ramps and maybe even Have an EOE like tolling system for that part of I-94

[peterj920]

With all of the partial interchanges wouldn't that be attributed to poor design?  I would prefer the ticket system to how IDOT tolls roads because with the tickets, the tolling is fair and calculates per mile.  Once you get a ticket, there isn't a toll booth until the next exit or leaving the state.  That eliminates the tolling penalty for exiting the freeway and getting back on for the most part.  The other problem with the Illinois tollway is how unfair the tolling is.  Someone traveling to Gurnee from Wisconsin has to pay $2.80 at the Waukegan Plaza and only has to travel 5 miles.  In addition to that, an extra toll has to be paid to exit after IL 21.  Coming from Chicago, the toll is $1.90 and the exits are toll free up to Gurnee, despite traveling many more miles than someone from Wisconsin to get there.

Seems like the Illinois Tollway system likes to nickel and dime people.  Amazing that at the south end of I-355, there's a 90 cent toll for traffic to get off on US 6 despite traveling less than a mile from I-80.  Even the people at google maps didn't want to pay the fare to record those ramps.  Why would someone pay and use that ramp to get to I-80 when the US 30 exit to I-80 is free and is only about a mile away?  Even after that it costs $3.80 to travel between I-80 and I-55.  Even with the I-PASS discount the rates are pretty high and that tollway is completely useless for economic development with such high tolls.  The new tollway does provide a bypass and another way for people to avoid I-294 if they want to avoid the high traffic, but most locals aren't paying that price to travel a few miles and most of the traffic using it aren't going to stop at the local ramps.

My personal stance is that tolls should only be used for major bridges and tunnels.  I really like Michigan's approach.  They only toll the Mackinac Bridge and the international bridge crossings because they are very expensive to maintain.  Keeping freeways free with bring and guarantee more economic development than building a toll road.  That article posted earlier proves it and shows how toll roads are hit and miss when it comes to development.   

[Joe The Dragon]

With all of the partial interchanges wouldn't that be attributed to poor design?  I would prefer the ticket system to how IDOT tolls roads because with the tickets, the tolling is fair and calculates per mile.  Once you get a ticket, there isn't a toll booth until the next exit or leaving the state.  That eliminates the tolling penalty for exiting the freeway and getting back on for the most part.  The other problem with the Illinois tollway is how unfair the tolling is.  Someone traveling to Gurnee from Wisconsin has to pay $2.80 at the Waukegan Plaza and only has to travel 5 miles.  In addition to that, an extra toll has to be paid to exit after IL 21.  Coming from Chicago, the toll is $1.90 and the exits are toll free up to Gurnee, despite traveling many more miles than someone from Wisconsin to get there.

they where more even when they had the old deer field toll. Back in the old Toll US 41 days it was not really the best setup for a ticket toll road.

I-90 elgin to WI was ticket as well. I-88 looks like at least part of it was ticket based.


IN toll road was fully ticket now the ticket part starts after the borman.

[The Ghostbuster]

There won't be any toll booths. The tolling would be entirely electronic (I hope). And like I said above, I doubt the entire roadways would be tolled, I'd expect the tolls to be on Express or HOT Lanes. That would likely produce less opposition than tolling the entire roadways.

[merrycilantro]

Makes sense to me. Introduce the idea cautiously. I'd say toll the Milwaukee Bypass, but if they did that they might as well toll I-94 too because traffic would shift in either direction and cause even more congestion. Although...now that I said that...perhaps tolling strictly in Milwaukee is an answer to the problem of adding lanes, where to add them, p*ssing off Neighborhood Members who don't want their neighborhoods further torn up by more freeways...Sure, it'll probably clog nearby streets like Greenfield Ave and Bluemound, but it'd take some traffic off I-94, and perhaps it might be easier or more cost efficient to expand Wis 59 (Greenfield) and US 18 (Bluemound). Almost like "Alternate I-94's" so to speak. Toll the Madison Beltline, small sectons of the bigger cities...maybe 172 in Green Bay, who knows.

[Brandon]

I think tollways also hurt economic development for communities along the route.  It's easy to compare I-94 along the Tri State Tollway to I-94 between Pleasant Prairie.  The tollway has poorly built interchanges that either have missing ramps, or they penalize drivers with an extra toll for getting back on the tollway.  The Oasis Service Plazas hurt communities along the tollway because it keeps traffic from exiting.  Other than the Gurnee Exit, where is there an exit along the tollway that people stop at and spend their money?

You need to get off the tollways more.  There's a shitload of development near them.

[peterj920]

I think tollways also hurt economic development for communities along the route.  It's easy to compare I-94 along the Tri State Tollway to I-94 between Pleasant Prairie.  The tollway has poorly built interchanges that either have missing ramps, or they penalize drivers with an extra toll for getting back on the tollway.  The Oasis Service Plazas hurt communities along the tollway because it keeps traffic from exiting.  Other than the Gurnee Exit, where is there an exit along the tollway that people stop at and spend their money?

You need to get off the tollways more.  There's a shitload of development near them.

I know that there is economic development near the tollways but I think it's more to serve the local population that lives in the immediate area.  There are a lot of headquarters along it but nothing for the average travelor to stop.  Gurnee will always be a destination but the other exits don't have much of an upside north of the airport.  If you compare the exits along I-94 in Wisconsin compared to the Tri-State, there is a lot more going on with the exception of the IL 132 exit.  Even compare the free sections of I-94 in Illinois compared to the tolled portions and there's more along the free area.

[merrycilantro]

I know I'd read in that article about examples of development along toll roads...I'd guess since the exit ramps are all full interchanges, and provided they don't nickel/dime travelers who exit the would-be tollway on the Wisconsin side, it could still potentially work.

[slorydn1]

"Given the state of transportation funding in this country, there will be a lot of different tools on the table, and value capture may be one of the solutions."  — Kristi Lafleur

I just had to LOL about this line here. Value capture-gosh that's rich. Gotta love MBA's and their thought process, the terms they come up with.
Value Capture=How can I suck even more money out of peoples wallets.


I'm gonna use that line the next time we get a larceny call at work.  I'm going to put it out on the radio as a value capture.




In all seriousness, and I've said this before in discussions about tolling in my own state. If you want to toll me, fine, go ahead, I'll gladly pay it-as long as you do away with the fuel taxes in return. Stop hosing me twice.

[merrycilantro]

Does anybody know what Wisconsin's gas tax is at? High compared to others?

[mgk920]

Does anybody know what Wisconsin's gas tax is at? High compared to others?

I believe that it is somewhere around 39¢, one of the higher state rates in the USA.

Between the early Thompson years and the late Doyle years, it was automatically adjusted every year to keep it level with inflation, but that was deep-sixed in a populist revolt in the latter 00s.  In the 8-10 years since is when the current funding problems began.

----------

As for potential tollways in Wisconsin, IMHO, if Illinois would ever get their act together and build the planned US 12 tollway to the state line at Richmond, IL/Genoa City, WI, I could easily see the Wisconsin part of the project having tolled sections - the existing freeway sections of US 12 would remain freeways, but the new parts, specifically the Elkhorn-Whitewater 'corner cut' and the part between Fort Atkinson and Cambridge, would function very well as tollways, with the revenue easily being able to fund six-laning the whole thing between Genoa City and Madison, including re-engineering the I-39/90 'Beltline' interchange.

Mike

[merrycilantro]

Mike I'm glad you joined in the thread, I always appreciate your insight

Could you see any other roads as being viable tolls in WI?

[peterj920]

Again, the toll roads aren't happening.  I brought up Illinois and Texas to show examples of one party rule where they're not afraid of toll roads.  If one party rules either Democrat or Republican without having to worry about losing power, toll roads will be built.  Republicans have full control in Wisconsin but it could be gone just like that, which is why they won't build any toll roads.  Democrats would use that as a campaign issue.  If Democrats regain control, expect the same. 

[Brandon]

Again, the toll roads aren't happening.  I brought up Illinois and Texas to show examples of one party rule where they're not afraid of toll roads.  If one party rules either Democrat or Republican without having to worry about losing power, toll roads will be built.  Republicans have full control in Wisconsin but it could be gone just like that, which is why they won't build any toll roads.  Democrats would use that as a campaign issue.  If Democrats regain control, expect the same. 

Toll roads were built in Illinois long before only one party took power.  That's only been since 2002.  It has little to do with one party having power, and a lot more to do with Downstate vs. Chicagoland, and Downstate not wanting (rightly) to pay for Chicagoland infrastructure.

[US 41]

Again, the toll roads aren't happening.  I brought up Illinois and Texas to show examples of one party rule where they're not afraid of toll roads.  If one party rules either Democrat or Republican without having to worry about losing power, toll roads will be built.  Republicans have full control in Wisconsin but it could be gone just like that, which is why they won't build any toll roads.  Democrats would use that as a campaign issue.  If Democrats regain control, expect the same. 

Toll roads were built in Illinois long before only one party took power.  That's only been since 2002.  It has little to do with one party having power, and a lot more to do with Downstate vs. Chicagoland, and Downstate not wanting (rightly) to pay for Chicagoland infrastructure.

I'm actually surprised that tolling isn't more widespread in Illinois. I-57 in my opinion would be the perfect road to toll. It also has a free alternative (IL 37 and US 45) the entire length for those who don't want to pay the tolls. I-70 would also be another reasonable option for tolling and it also a free alternative (US 40).

[johndoe780]

Again, the toll roads aren't happening.  I brought up Illinois and Texas to show examples of one party rule where they're not afraid of toll roads.  If one party rules either Democrat or Republican without having to worry about losing power, toll roads will be built.  Republicans have full control in Wisconsin but it could be gone just like that, which is why they won't build any toll roads.  Democrats would use that as a campaign issue.  If Democrats regain control, expect the same. 

Toll roads were built in Illinois long before only one party took power.  That's only been since 2002.  It has little to do with one party having power, and a lot more to do with Downstate vs. Chicagoland, and Downstate not wanting (rightly) to pay for Chicagoland infrastructure.

Exactly, but not really- less to do with downstate vs chicagoland. and currently, more goes into the system downstate than in chicagoland, albeit infrastructure costs are much cheaper downstate, however in the state throughout- it's not generally very expensive. The state's flat as a pancake and you dont have to carve through mountains.

The original toll roads-90, 294, 88 were built before the Eisenhower interstate system- so 40s' 50s. I know the Pennsylvania 76 started in like 1945.

The only reason why the toll roads never went away is the same reason Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc. toll roads never went away-the states don't want to pay for upkeep.

However, I will say that Illinois toll roads are a ton cheaper than those in the east coast. My god, there's a toll road in Virginia-Dulles greenway or something- damn near $6 for 10 miles.

As far as toll roads in Wisconsin, I doubt it. Scott Walker would rather sell more bonds and pay for highway infrastructure and kick the can to our grandkids rather than raise the gas tax or put up toll booths.

[paulthemapguy]

You need to get off the tollways more.  There's a shitload of development near them.

Yes.

Even compare the free sections of I-94 in Illinois compared to the tolled portions and there's more along the free area.

No.

Development occurs along expressways in places where there is an exit.  No exit from the freeway, and there's no development.  Because you can't stop.  The development along the Tri-State is few and far-between, when the interchanges are few and far-between.  And access along the Tri-State is heavily limited for a reason, because I-294 was intended as a beltway to get traffic through the Chicago area without being snagged by downtown and inner-city commuters.  And since its target audience is out-of-staters, of course Illinois is going to tax the shit out of the users, to siphon money into the state from outside sources.

[SEWIGuy]

You need to get off the tollways more.  There's a shitload of development near them.

Yes.

Even compare the free sections of I-94 in Illinois compared to the tolled portions and there's more along the free area.

No.

Development occurs along expressways in places where there is an exit.  No exit from the freeway, and there's no development.  Because you can't stop.  The development along the Tri-State is few and far-between, when the interchanges are few and far-between.  And access along the Tri-State is heavily limited for a reason, because I-294 was intended as a beltway to get traffic through the Chicago area without being snagged by downtown and inner-city commuters.  And since its target audience is out-of-staters, of course Illinois is going to tax the shit out of the users, to siphon money into the state from outside sources.

Right.  And if you look at where there are exits off the Northwest Tollway and I-88, there is plenty of development. 

[peterj920]

Again, the toll roads aren't happening.  I brought up Illinois and Texas to show examples of one party rule where they're not afraid of toll roads.  If one party rules either Democrat or Republican without having to worry about losing power, toll roads will be built.  Republicans have full control in Wisconsin but it could be gone just like that, which is why they won't build any toll roads.  Democrats would use that as a campaign issue.  If Democrats regain control, expect the same. 

Toll roads were built in Illinois long before only one party took power.  That's only been since 2002.  It has little to do with one party having power, and a lot more to do with Downstate vs. Chicagoland, and Downstate not wanting (rightly) to pay for Chicagoland infrastructure.

Exactly, but not really- less to do with downstate vs chicagoland. and currently, more goes into the system downstate than in chicagoland, albeit infrastructure costs are much cheaper downstate, however in the state throughout- it's not generally very expensive. The state's flat as a pancake and you dont have to carve through mountains.

The original toll roads-90, 294, 88 were built before the Eisenhower interstate system- so 40s' 50s. I know the Pennsylvania 76 started in like 1945.

The only reason why the toll roads never went away is the same reason Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc. toll roads never went away-the states don't want to pay for upkeep.

However, I will say that Illinois toll roads are a ton cheaper than those in the east coast. My god, there's a toll road in Virginia-Dulles greenway or something- damn near $6 for 10 miles.

As far as toll roads in Wisconsin, I doubt it. Scott Walker would rather sell more bonds and pay for highway infrastructure and kick the can to our grandkids rather than raise the gas tax or put up toll booths.

Jim Doyle actually took money from the road fund and used it for other things.  With Scott Walker bonding for projects, that is the result of voters not wanting to raise the fuel tax.  John Oliver raised the infrastructure problem on his show and I have a link to the video.  Fast forward to 13:10 and you will see why raising the gas tax is politically risky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpzvaqypav8

If you didn't care to see that part of the video, it has people calling into CSPAN opposing the gas tax.  It didn't show all responses, but they said that the segment lasted an hour and no ONE person called in supporting a gas tax increase.

If the people on this board who live in Wisconsin and want to raise the fuel tax or build toll roads run for the Assembly or State Senate.  If you campaign to raise fuel taxes or build toll roads, you will lose badly no matter what party you decide to run as.  I'm just stating reality here, that's all.  But there is a serious problem when funding roads, and no one is offering a solution at the state or federal level because of the fear of political backlash. 

[jakeroot]

With Scott Walker bonding for projects, that is the result of voters not wanting to raise the fuel tax.

Voters get to decide whether or not to raise gas taxes in Wisconsin? In Washington State, gas tax increases are usually bundled together with the road projects that they'll be funding. The package is then passed by the House and Senate, and signed off by the governor. This way, there's no one person to blame for a tax increase (and the whole concept of political suicide is avoided).