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Author Topic: Washington  (Read 104831 times)

stevashe

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Re: Washington
« Reply #900 on: November 14, 2020, 10:35:45 PM »

There's a few freeway-to-freeway ramp meters in the north as well.

First, there's Southbound SR 525 & Northbound I-405 to Southbound I-5 in Lynnwood complete with single section greens for the two outer HOV bypass lanes, then there's Westbound SR 522 to Northbound I-405 (though the fact that this meter is actually for freeway-to-freeway traffic is obscured by the c/d with exit 24).

The Eastbound SR 522 to Southbound I-405 and Westbound SR 522 to Northbound I-405 ramps also have meters, but it's debatable whether these really count as "freeway-to-freeway" since the traffic is coming from the start of 522's freeway segment so the previous intersection was a stoplight.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #901 on: November 15, 2020, 12:40:06 PM »

There's a few freeway-to-freeway ramp meters in the north as well.

First, there's Southbound SR 525 & Northbound I-405 to Southbound I-5 in Lynnwood complete with single section greens for the two outer HOV bypass lanes, then there's Westbound SR 522 to Northbound I-405 (though the fact that this meter is actually for freeway-to-freeway traffic is obscured by the c/d with exit 24).

The Eastbound SR 522 to Southbound I-405 and Westbound SR 522 to Northbound I-405 ramps also have meters, but it's debatable whether these really count as "freeway-to-freeway" since the traffic is coming from the start of 522's freeway segment so the previous intersection was a stoplight.

The ramp meter from Westbound 522 to Northbound 405 may either tie or even be older than the Eastbound 518 to Southbound 5 ramp meter. Or possibly, they were both installed simultaneously to test the effectiveness of freeway-to-freeway ramp meters.

I'm still looking for articles on the exact date (these things tend to make the paper), but in doing so, I did find this article from the Seattle Times about ramp metering between I-5 and I-90:

(full article PDF)
Quote from: Seattle Times 03 Jan 1992: "INTERFREEWAY METERING IS DELAYED UNTIL NEEDED"
Ramp meters have been in use around here for about 10 years - the first ones went in on I-5 in 1981.

And recently it's looked as if meters were being put in where I-5 meets I-90.

But it's not going to happen. In fact, the metering lights there are going to be removed in the next few weeks.

"We're unsure about freeway-to-freeway metering, so we're going to take the heads down," says Pete Briglia, manager of the Department of Transportation's Traffic Systems Management Center.

That's not a big deal. It just involves removing the traffic-light signals.

The ramp meters appeared just before the holidays because original designs, done years ago, called for such devices.

But now, with other changes taking place along the freeways, such as HOV-lane construction, it seems premature to try ramp metering at the same time, says Briglia.
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Bruce

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Re: Washington
« Reply #902 on: November 15, 2020, 01:54:54 PM »

Looks like I totally forgot about all the other ramp meters, since they blend into the background.

Still, this one would be extremely busy but I'm all for it. I-5 gets nasty at the Boeing merge and it doesn't help with the lack of exits for 7 miles.

ErmineNotyours

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Re: Washington
« Reply #903 on: November 18, 2020, 11:41:43 PM »

[snip]

 Northbound 167 to Northbound 405 in Renton;

[snip]

In my experience, the one in Tukwila and the one in Lakewood are activated everyday as part of the regular rush. I'm not 100% sure the one in Renton is active yet, but everything is there for it to be activated last I checked.

[snip]

I've seen the one in Renton activated when the signal was still hooded, and people followed it.  Now that its out in the open, I've never seen it turned on even when the entrance from Talbot Road is metered.

And SB 599 to SB I-5 used to be metered, and the warning light post is still standing, but the state soon figured that was a dumb idea.
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stevashe

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Re: Washington
« Reply #904 on: November 19, 2020, 01:54:16 AM »

That article Jake posted reminds me, there actually are ramp meters at the I-90/I-5 interchange now, but they are for the ramps from "Eastbound I-90" to NB and SB I-5, so they fall into the same category as the two 522/405 meters since the freeway only just started.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #905 on: November 19, 2020, 03:17:00 AM »

That article Jake posted reminds me, there actually are ramp meters at the I-90/I-5 interchange now, but they are for the ramps from "Eastbound I-90" to NB and SB I-5, so they fall into the same category as the two 522/405 meters since the freeway only just started.

That's a very good point. Those signals look to have been added in the early 90s, perhaps around the time those ramps opened (see the backside of this signal as proof). The numbers may say 94 and 95 but my hunch is that these were added later to clarify a couple things for drivers.

And SB 599 to SB I-5 used to be metered, and the warning light post is still standing, but the state soon figured that was a dumb idea.

I didn't know about this one, but I can see the old cutouts for the sensors in the pavement, as well as the old mounting base for the pole-mounted signal off on the shoulder. The only remaining evidence for the right-side ramp appears to be those old mounting bases.

As a side-note: I really miss the old standard of using pole-mounted signals for double-lane ramp meters. One was recently installed at the southbound on-ramp from 200th onto I-5, but it was shortly thereafter replaced by overhead ramp meters. I always find the overhead ones harder to see.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #906 on: November 19, 2020, 03:19:32 AM »

Anyone know what this sign is meant to indicate on the I-90 northbound ramp to I-5?

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Algorithm

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Re: Washington
« Reply #907 on: November 19, 2020, 04:49:53 AM »

That indicates that that bridge previously carried US-10 in addition to I-90, before US-10 was decommissioned.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #908 on: November 19, 2020, 12:28:57 PM »

That indicates that that bridge previously carried US-10 in addition to I-90, before US-10 was decommissioned.

I thought that might have been the case, but I didn't realize there was any overlap in I-90 and US-10 in this area. I figured the completion of I-90 signalled the end of US-10, so posting both routes on the sign seems redundant.
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TEG24601

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Re: Washington
« Reply #909 on: November 19, 2020, 12:40:21 PM »

That indicates that that bridge previously carried US-10 in addition to I-90, before US-10 was decommissioned.

I thought that might have been the case, but I didn't realize there was any overlap in I-90 and US-10 in this area. I figured the completion of I-90 signalled the end of US-10, so posting both routes on the sign seems redundant.


When the bridges over I-5 were built, they knew the route would be I-90, but it was also US-10.  The bridges were not connected to anything for decades, on either side, so technically, they only ever carried I-90, but they were originally built for I-90/US 10.
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kkt

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Re: Washington
« Reply #910 on: November 19, 2020, 04:18:50 PM »

Quote
90/10
WCD

This is probably obvious to everyone else, but I puzzled over it for a few minutes.  The WCD probably stands for Westbound Collector/Distributor, yes?
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #911 on: November 19, 2020, 05:16:48 PM »

That indicates that that bridge previously carried US-10 in addition to I-90, before US-10 was decommissioned.

I thought that might have been the case, but I didn't realize there was any overlap in I-90 and US-10 in this area. I figured the completion of I-90 signalled the end of US-10, so posting both routes on the sign seems redundant.


When the bridges over I-5 were built, they knew the route would be I-90, but it was also US-10.  The bridges were not connected to anything for decades, on either side, so technically, they only ever carried I-90, but they were originally built for I-90/US 10.

Do you think that sign predates the completion of I-90? I thought it was placed there at the time they finished I-90 in the late 80s or early 90s.

Quote
90/10
WCD

This is probably obvious to everyone else, but I puzzled over it for a few minutes.  The WCD probably stands for Westbound Collector/Distributor, yes?

Not obvious to me; I was actually curious if someone else was going to ask about it. I have no idea what it stands for (your guess is as good as mine).

EDIT: Yes, Westbound Collector Distributor is correct. Also, "WBCD". See this PDF from WSDOT (it's their list of bridges, and it has dozens of abbreviations from page 23 onwards).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 05:20:42 PM by jakeroot »
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kkt

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Re: Washington
« Reply #912 on: November 19, 2020, 07:07:33 PM »

Thank you for the reassurance and for the link to the bridge list :)
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #913 on: November 19, 2020, 07:17:52 PM »

No worries!

And looking through that list, honestly, I have more questions than when I started.

For example, the I-5 Puyallup River Bridges, between Fife and Tacoma, is listed as "5/45X" (where X represents the individual bridge and other nearby ramps). There has never been, eg, "WA-456" and there never has been, to the best of my knowledge.

With this in mind, is the "10" in "90/10" actually to reference old US(SR)-10? It's still listed as "90/10" in that bridge list. Surely if US-10 were long decommissioned, as we all know it is, that "10" should have been dumped. Plus, the second number after the slash doesn't seem to have any bearing on route numbers; every bridge in that list has a slash followed by another number, yet only a handful of bridges (or sets of bridges) are actually duplexes and/or the location of another former route IF we are to exclude the former PSH/SSH system.
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ErmineNotyours

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Re: Washington
« Reply #914 on: November 19, 2020, 09:15:05 PM »

The 10 probably means it's the 10th structure on the highway.

In other news, sign crews will now have to sign Lumen Field.  Starting in 2000 it was Kingdome, Seahawks Stadium, Qwest Field, Century Link Field and now Lumen Field, in the middle of the NFL season.  We'll see how fast they act.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #915 on: November 20, 2020, 12:19:13 AM »

In other news, sign crews will now have to sign Lumen Field.  Starting in 2000 it was Kingdome, Seahawks Stadium, Qwest Field, Century Link Field and now Lumen Field, in the middle of the NFL season.  We'll see how fast they act.

Roughly how many signs are we talking? At least three on I-90 and I-5, and I think at least another at the end of I-90 @ 4th Ave.
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kkt

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Re: Washington
« Reply #916 on: November 20, 2020, 01:12:25 AM »

I hate Naming Rights stadiums.  The naming rights should belong to either the primary user, or the entity that put in the most money to build it.
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TEG24601

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Re: Washington
« Reply #917 on: November 20, 2020, 12:53:10 PM »

That indicates that that bridge previously carried US-10 in addition to I-90, before US-10 was decommissioned.

I thought that might have been the case, but I didn't realize there was any overlap in I-90 and US-10 in this area. I figured the completion of I-90 signalled the end of US-10, so posting both routes on the sign seems redundant.
[/font]


The signs on the bridges are usually installed when the bridges were built, not when they are opened for use.  And when the bridges were built, they didn't have plans to decommission the US routes.  We are lucky they are post 1960, or it would have said 90/10/2.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #918 on: November 20, 2020, 01:06:22 PM »

The signs on the bridges are usually installed when the bridges were built, not when they are opened for use.  And when the bridges were built, they didn't have plans to decommission the US routes.  We are lucky they are post 1960, or it would have said 90/10/2.

Well, that's fine and dandy, but ErmineNotyours above pretty much spelled out that the second number (after the slash) is the n-th structure along that highway. It's just by chance that I found one that said 90/10.

If you go to the PDF I linked to above, see page 189. The bridge list for I-90 begins on that page. Although there is no 90/01, you can see the second number progressively increase as you go further east along I-90.

About 3/4 of the way down page 189, you can see the bridge I linked (emphasis mine):

"WESTBOUND I-90 TO NORTHBOUND I-5:
90/10WCD W-NBCD RAMP OVER DEARBORN 0007565L 865 CBox
"
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jay8g

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Re: Washington
« Reply #919 on: November 22, 2020, 02:53:48 AM »

Regarding the bridge numbers, typically the signs look more like this, with the state route number on the top and the bridge number on the bottom. I'm not sure how the bridge numbers are determined -- they typically increase with increasing mileposts, but they're generally not sequential or based on mileposts in any obvious way, and they also sometimes have decimal points (which I really don't understand -- sometimes they seem to be when bridges are added when there are two with sequential numbers, but sometimes they're used on their own). Letter suffixes are used for divided highways, bridges on ramps, and pedestrian bridges (P suffix). I really wish there was a bit more documentation on how the numbering system worked.

Regarding ramp meters on freeway-to-freeway connections, there's soon to be another example -- I-90 to northbound I-5, on the collector-distributor lanes! The plans can be seen here. Unless I'm missing something, this also means that people coming from the Dearborn and Edgar Martinez ramps could have to go through two separate ramp meters to get onto northbound I-5! The southbound CD lanes also had ramp meter-style loops installed recently, but I haven't seen any indication that the ramp meters themselves will be installed anytime soon.
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thefraze_1020

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Re: Washington
« Reply #920 on: November 22, 2020, 07:51:14 PM »

Apparently this is on US 2 at Eagle Falls:



Source is from a KING 5 report: https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/wsp-will-tow-cars-parked-illegally-on-highway-2/281-48290f98-d38c-4dae-828b-4dee7c1adc18
.

I drove from Lake Wenatchee to Everett on US 2 earlier today, and I can confirm this sign has been replaced with the correct sign. They did a nice job on it too, it's nicely formatted.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #921 on: Today at 02:47:45 PM »

Regarding ramp meters on freeway-to-freeway connections, there's soon to be another example -- I-90 to northbound I-5, on the collector-distributor lanes! The plans can be seen here. Unless I'm missing something, this also means that people coming from the Dearborn and Edgar Martinez ramps could have to go through two separate ramp meters to get onto northbound I-5! The southbound CD lanes also had ramp meter-style loops installed recently, but I haven't seen any indication that the ramp meters themselves will be installed anytime soon.

I would like to think that, if there was to be metering along the collector/distributer lanes, that they would remove the other ones? Having two sets of meters for all movements except freeway-to-freeway seems excessive.
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jakeroot

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Re: Washington
« Reply #922 on: Today at 03:22:21 PM »

I don't have any photos, because I am an idiot, but there is going to a four-lane meter at the on-ramp from 150th/SE 37th in Bellevue. It's part of the I-90 Eastgate to SR-900 auxiliary lane improvements. It will be in the same location as what I believe was the state's first three-lane ramp meter, only followed much later by the Mercer Street three-lane meter for traffic heading southbound on I-5.

Also in ramp meter news, at least a couple three lane meters are being installed in the JBLM area. I think both will be from Berkeley St. There may be another at Steilacoom-Dupont Rd once that interchange is rebuilt. The plan seems to be to meter the HOV lane, which for the longest time was a big no-no around here (the only one I know of is the westbound I-90 on-ramp from Mercer Way on Mercer Island).

I also think there may be a three-lane meter from Marvin Road in Lacey (at the new DDI).
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