How do you define Upstate NY?

[noelbotevera]

Here's a better line about how I'd put it. I'd put it north of Binghamton. My reason is that this is roughly where New York's sprawl ends, north of Poughkeepsie, and there's not much Metro-North service. I've also noticed a large dropoff in development past the line, and you don't really see a big city up until Albany.

You see the end of NYC sprawl well before you get as far north as Binghamton; there are rural areas through much of Orange, Sullivan and Ulster Counties, and of course all of Delaware County is sprawl-free.

Ah, I misjudged how I placed my dividing line. But I'd say that I'd still place the line to be north of Poughkeepsie, excluding Delaware County. My reasoning is that several medium sized towns (Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Beacon/Newburgh, etc.) actually make up a fair amount of population. Despite decreasing populations in these areas, the area still has a population of about 670,000, and is considering to still be part of the NYC metro, despite being a good 2 hours from New York City. The area is actually slowing growing because of how rural it is and having Metro-North service.

So despite most of the area being rural, there's still a sizeable population here. As long as you're near the Hudson River, I've noticed, most of the sprawl is slowly moving north.

Side note: It's actually really close to Albany. It's a good hour from Kingston to Albany.

[The Nature Boy]

Here's a better line about how I'd put it. I'd put it north of Binghamton. My reason is that this is roughly where New York's sprawl ends, north of Poughkeepsie, and there's not much Metro-North service. I've also noticed a large dropoff in development past the line, and you don't really see a big city up until Albany.

You see the end of NYC sprawl well before you get as far north as Binghamton; there are rural areas through much of Orange, Sullivan and Ulster Counties, and of course all of Delaware County is sprawl-free.

Ah, I misjudged how I placed my dividing line. But I'd say that I'd still place the line to be north of Poughkeepsie, excluding Delaware County. My reasoning is that several medium sized towns (Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Beacon/Newburgh, etc.) actually make up a fair amount of population. Despite decreasing populations in these areas, the area still has a population of about 670,000, and is considering to still be part of the NYC metro, despite being a good 2 hours from New York City. The area is actually slowing growing because of how rural it is and having Metro-North service.

So despite most of the area being rural, there's still a sizeable population here. As long as you're near the Hudson River, I've noticed, most of the sprawl is slowly moving north.

Side note: It's actually really close to Albany. It's a good hour from Kingston to Albany.

I would put Newburgh and Poughkeepsie in a gray area. It has a feel that is distinct from Westchester and even Rockland Counties. Sure, it's still within the New York sphere but it's far enough removed that it begins to feel outside of it. I would put that area in Upstate New York. As you note, it's relatively close to Albany and Albany is undeniably Upstate.

[vdeane]

I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.

Sullivan is definitely downstate.  Just look at Schumer's push to widen NY 17 from I-87 all the way to the casino (which would probably get much of the Quickway upgraded to I-86 in the process)!  IMO an area isn't truly rural if the freeway is six lanes wide, which would point to the area being a suburb/exurb of NYC.

There isn't as convenient a divide east of the Hudson, but Poughkeepsie is definitely downstate since so many people there commute to NYC.  We do have Metro-North giving us a decent approximation, though.

The Thruway needs to be 6 lanes south of Albany. Doesn't mean Albany is Downstate. There's a whole lot of nothing between Middletown and Monticello and 6 lanes on NY 17 is only needed for trucks. Volumes drop very sharply west of Middletown (60K to 31K from I-84 to Exit 119)

If you say nothing with 6 lanes is rural, I-71 in Ohio and widened sections of the Pennsylvania Turnpike would like to have a word with you.

I'm most familiar with NY, which doesn't tend to build anything more than four lanes in rural areas.  Honestly, seeing I-95 in Maryland with six lanes despite being in a rural area felt REALLY weird.

[dcbjms]

Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate.  If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada.  (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.

Interesting; this is the first I've heard of early settlement patterns being a defining factor, and it sounds like a very useful one. How would you characterize those of "New Netherland", as distincit from "new New England"? (And yes, eastern Long Island is very decidedly part of New England, in spirit if not in fact.)

Thanks.   Colin Woodard's book is amazing and is worth a read.  His definition of New Netherland, IIRC, includes western Long Island, NYC, Fairfield County (CT), North Jersey, and (for our purposes in this thread) Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam Counties (NY).  Everything else in New York (in other words, the definition of Upstate), as well as PA's Northern Tier, is part of Yankeedom.  From this Tufts article the author wrote a couple of years ago, he described both Yankeedom and New Netherland as follows:

YANKEEDOM. Founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by radical Calvinists as a new Zion, Yankeedom has, since the outset, put great emphasis on perfecting earthly civilization through social engineering, denial of self for the common good, and assimilation of outsiders. It has prized education, intellectual achievement, communal empowerment, and broad citizen participation in politics and government, the latter seen as the public's shield against the machinations of grasping aristocrats and other would-be tyrants. Since the early Puritans, it has been more comfortable with government regulation and public-sector social projects than many of the other nations, who regard the Yankee utopian streak with trepidation.

NEW NETHERLAND. Established by the Dutch at a time when the Netherlands was the most sophisticated society in the Western world, New Netherland has always been a global commercial culture–materialistic, with a profound tolerance for ethnic and religious diversity and an unflinching commitment to the freedom of inquiry and conscience. Like seventeenth-century Amsterdam, it emerged as a center of publishing, trade, and finance, a magnet for immigrants, and a refuge for those persecuted by other regional cultures, from Sephardim in the seventeenth century to gays, feminists, and bohemians in the early twentieth. Unconcerned with great moral questions, it nonetheless has found itself in alliance with Yankeedom to defend public institutions and reject evangelical prescriptions for individual behavior.

Yet that barely scratches the surface of his argumentation in the book, where he goes into more detail.  How would I put it?  With some exceptions, at the time of the settlement of Upstate, New England was largely homogenous since most of the early Yankee ancestors came primarily from East Anglia, though only on religion is it an open question.  New Netherland, on the other hand, though, had people from all over the place settle, and thus is everything New England was - and to some degree still is - not.  That's only just a brief summary - I'd go on and on about it, if need be.

[empirestate]

I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.

Agreed; I wouldn't either. That's why I was curious why one might divide the park simply because a county line runs through it.

Sullivan is definitely downstate.  Just look at Schumer's push to widen NY 17 from I-87 all the way to the casino (which would probably get much of the Quickway upgraded to I-86 in the process)!  IMO an area isn't truly rural if the freeway is six lanes wide, which would point to the area being a suburb/exurb of NYC.

I agree there's a palpable downstate influence through much of that county. Whether freeway wideness is a measure of that influence is debatable, but it definitely exists.

Ah, I misjudged how I placed my dividing line. But I'd say that I'd still place the line to be north of Poughkeepsie, excluding Delaware County. My reasoning is that several medium sized towns (Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Beacon/Newburgh, etc.) actually make up a fair amount of population. Despite decreasing populations in these areas, the area still has a population of about 670,000, and is considering to still be part of the NYC metro, despite being a good 2 hours from New York City. The area is actually slowing growing because of how rural it is and having Metro-North service.

From your rationale alone, I'd say you put the line about where I put it: at the limits of Metro North service, plus contiguous development.

You're right that the small Hudson Valley cities (Poughkeepsie, Newburgh, Kingston) do form mini-metro areas of their own, and their autonomy from NYC is declining as commute patterns migrate outward. But they do still represent islands of population on the fringe of the greater metro area; you can actually travel inward from any of those places and encounter much less-developed area before you start to see suburbanization increase again. Part of that's because development patterns from those cities and from NYC haven't quite grown to meet each other yet, but much more of it is due to large areas of undevelopable land in between (Harriman, Bear Mountain and Fahnestock state parks, along with the West Point reservation and a large inventory of conserved open space).

Beacon I would place in a slightly different category: it serves somewhat as a destination city, similar to Cold Spring. Although there is a resident population there (and in neighboring Fishkill), the city also has an important presence in the recreation and tourism sector. As such, it attracts travelers from the city, in addition to harboring commuters to the city.

I would put Newburgh and Poughkeepsie in a gray area. It has a feel that is distinct from Westchester and even Rockland Counties. Sure, it's still within the New York sphere but it's far enough removed that it begins to feel outside of it. I would put that area in Upstate New York. As you note, it's relatively close to Albany and Albany is undeniably Upstate.

You can go either way, especially with Newburgh, since it's not on Metro North (at least directly–there is a ferry connection to the Beacon station). Poughkeepsie does have Metro North service, but it does also stand alone as its own metro area, albeit one that would be rather smaller if not for the proximity of NYC. There is, of course, also Metro North service in eastern Dutchess County, but service is far less consistent and the area is decidedly less developed; the same is even more markedly true of Orange County.

Thanks.   Colin Woodard's book is amazing and is worth a read.  His definition of New Netherland, IIRC, includes western Long Island, NYC, Fairfield County (CT), North Jersey, and (for our purposes in this thread) Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam Counties (NY).  Everything else in New York (in other words, the definition of Upstate), as well as PA's Northern Tier, is part of Yankeedom.  From this Tufts article the author wrote a couple of years ago, he described both Yankeedom and New Netherland as follows:

YANKEEDOM. Founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by radical Calvinists as a new Zion, Yankeedom has, since the outset, put great emphasis on perfecting earthly civilization through social engineering, denial of self for the common good, and assimilation of outsiders. It has prized education, intellectual achievement, communal empowerment, and broad citizen participation in politics and government, the latter seen as the public's shield against the machinations of grasping aristocrats and other would-be tyrants. Since the early Puritans, it has been more comfortable with government regulation and public-sector social projects than many of the other nations, who regard the Yankee utopian streak with trepidation.

NEW NETHERLAND. Established by the Dutch at a time when the Netherlands was the most sophisticated society in the Western world, New Netherland has always been a global commercial culture–materialistic, with a profound tolerance for ethnic and religious diversity and an unflinching commitment to the freedom of inquiry and conscience. Like seventeenth-century Amsterdam, it emerged as a center of publishing, trade, and finance, a magnet for immigrants, and a refuge for those persecuted by other regional cultures, from Sephardim in the seventeenth century to gays, feminists, and bohemians in the early twentieth. Unconcerned with great moral questions, it nonetheless has found itself in alliance with Yankeedom to defend public institutions and reject evangelical prescriptions for individual behavior.

That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.

[vdeane]

I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.

Agreed; I wouldn't either. That's why I was curious why one might divide the park simply because a county line runs through it.

I guess I would say that the park is both upstate and downstate in many respects, so it seems convenient to follow the county lines rather than split counties.

[empirestate]

I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.

Agreed; I wouldn't either. That's why I was curious why one might divide the park simply because a county line runs through it.

I guess I would say that the park is both upstate and downstate in many respects, so it seems convenient to follow the county lines rather than split counties.

Is that where you put the line, too? It was a different poster who proposed it, that I was replying to.

In any case, the only problem with following the county line there is that there's no observable, tangible difference between one side and the other. Like I said, if your definition really doesn't extend beyond a list of locations that are or aren't Upstate, that's fine, but that's beyond the scope of the topic. The whole idea is to be able to say "Yes, that location is [or is not] Upstate, because of [XYZ]." Basically, we're looking to identify XYZ.

So Catskill Park might well be a gray area, but ultimately it doesn't matter for the question. Once we've identified XYZ, we can say that XYZ applies to the park, or it doesn't, or it sort-of does. But it's just completely implausible that we'll find an XYZ that's true on one side of a county line but not the other.

[vdeane]

I guess that brings up the question of which is more significant: the park, or the county?

[cl94]

If we're using geographical features, the Shawangunk Ridge that cuts through eastern Sullivan County is a pretty good indicator as well. NYC influence pretty much stops at it. Runs just east of US 209 and is a northern continuation of PA's Blue Mountain.

[empirestate]

I guess that brings up the question of which is more significant: the park, or the county?

For the purposes of this thread, it's got to be the park. Being inside the Catskill Park would have demonstrable, observable differences than being outside of it. Building and development, permitted land uses, all that sort of thing would be tangibly different inside the park. By contrast, nothing much will change just by crossing a county line, at least not in that area. There might be places where a county boundary draws a starker contrast, but not in the middle of Catskill Park.

But again, we needn't worry about administrative lines. Think about the building and development patterns, the permitted land uses, commute patterns, prevailing retail styles, dominant industries, etc. Form your definition of Upstate based on things like that, or anything else that tangibly influences daily life. Then, we draw the line based on those criteria, and if it happens to fall on a county or park boundary, so be it. But if not, now we know that, whereas we didn't know before we started asking the question.

[dcbjms]

That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.

I agree, most definitely.  Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot.  It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).

[cl94]

That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.

I agree, most definitely.  Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot.  It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).

Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Midlands and I say that having lived there. It has a very Midwestern feel and a very noticeable cultural shift takes place between Buffalo and Rochester. Rochester feels a lot like the Northeast, Buffalo does not. Go inland and it isn't as much of the case, but the area along Lake Erie has more in common with Chicago than Boston or even Albany.

[The Nature Boy]

That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.

I agree, most definitely.  Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot.  It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).

Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Midlands and I say that having lived there. It has a very Midwestern feel and a very noticeable cultural shift takes place between Buffalo and Rochester. Rochester feels a lot like the Northeast, Buffalo does not. Go inland and it isn't as much of the case, but the area along Lake Erie has more in common with Chicago than Boston or even Albany.

I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.

[cl94]

That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.

I agree, most definitely.  Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot.  It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).

Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Midlands and I say that having lived there. It has a very Midwestern feel and a very noticeable cultural shift takes place between Buffalo and Rochester. Rochester feels a lot like the Northeast, Buffalo does not. Go inland and it isn't as much of the case, but the area along Lake Erie has more in common with Chicago than Boston or even Albany.

I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.

The shift starts happening around I-81, but it's complete by Buffalo. In many ways, Rochester, Ithaca and Syracuse feel like east coast cities. Buffalo is a smaller version of Cleveland or Detroit in more ways than one. On the other hand, I grew up in Lake George and, depending on who I talk to, people in Buffalo think I'm either from Maine or New York City. Don't ask me how they get that one, because I don't sound like either, nor do I think Maine really has an accent.

[empirestate]

I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.

The shift starts happening around I-81, but it's complete by Buffalo. In many ways, Rochester, Ithaca and Syracuse feel like east coast cities. Buffalo is a smaller version of Cleveland or Detroit in more ways than one. On the other hand, I grew up in Lake George and, depending on who I talk to, people in Buffalo think I'm either from Maine or New York City. Don't ask me how they get that one, because I don't sound like either, nor do I think Maine really has an accent.

The more I've traveled around the Midwest, the more I'm inclined to place Rochester there than in the Northeast. I see a lot more similarity to Wisconsin than I do to Vermont or western Massachusetts. Even the accent is similar, and is pretty firmly in place by the time you get to Rochester.

[7/8]

I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.

The shift starts happening around I-81, but it's complete by Buffalo. In many ways, Rochester, Ithaca and Syracuse feel like east coast cities. Buffalo is a smaller version of Cleveland or Detroit in more ways than one. On the other hand, I grew up in Lake George and, depending on who I talk to, people in Buffalo think I'm either from Maine or New York City. Don't ask me how they get that one, because I don't sound like either, nor do I think Maine really has an accent.

The more I've traveled around the Midwest, the more I'm inclined to place Rochester there than in the Northeast. I see a lot more similarity to Wisconsin than I do to Vermont or western Massachusetts. Even the accent is similar, and is pretty firmly in place by the time you get to Rochester.

An interesting map is the Pop vs Soda map, which shows a clear divide somewhere between Rochester and Syracuse.

[vdeane]

Meanwhile, this one places the divide directly on Rochester:


Given the vocabulary in my family, I'm inclined to place that border directly on the Genesee River.

[GenExpwy]

A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the pop/soda divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.

[cl94]

So Rochester is a gray zone. Buffalo is definitely Midwest, Syracuse is east coast.

[kalvado]

A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.

If they tried real hard, they would find a person who switches accents while walking from (midwest) bedroom to (east coast) kitchen

[swbrotha100]

I think of Upstate NY as anything outside of the general NYC area.

[empirestate]

I think of Upstate NY as anything outside of the general NYC area.

[amroad17]

A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the pop/soda divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.

As a Syracuse-area native, I have always noticed a somewhat small shift from "East Coast" to "Great Lakes/Midwest" anywhere around Waterloo, Senaca Falls, and Geneva.  Those areas just have a different "feel" than Auburn on east.  It's almost like the Montezuma NWR separates the East Coast/Midwest feel.

Also, I have always said "soda", not "pop."  Still do, although I live near Cincinnati now.  Or I would say the brand name.  But never have I called it "pop."

[noelbotevera]

A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the pop/soda divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.

As a Syracuse-area native, I have always noticed a somewhat small shift from "East Coast" to "Great Lakes/Midwest" anywhere around Waterloo, Senaca Falls, and Geneva.  Those areas just have a different "feel" than Auburn on east.  It's almost like the Montezuma NWR separates the East Coast/Midwest feel.

Also, I have always said "soda", not "pop."  Still do, although I live near Cincinnati now.  Or I would say the brand name.  But never have I called it "pop."

I actually found a food stand in Pittsburgh that had soda more expensive than pop. The reason why? It's from Philadelphia, so they say soda, and Pittsburgh is mostly pop.

[amroad17]

^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).